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I know I'm wandering into the wrong thread, but how do you Knight folks think you handle Tzeentch lists? Particularly, multiple characters and trudging through Horrors.

Honestly, Knights on paper scare me less than most things, because it will take multiple rounds of just shooting for them to even break through chaff to handle anything too important.

I'm genuinely curious for your feedback, half to enlighten me if I'm missing something, and half to work out that possible counter with you folks.

So one thing to keep in mind is that Knights basically have 7th Hit & Run. Against something like you describe, I would aim to:

1. Shoot with all weapons.

2. Charge and use Titanic Feet (12 attacks for most knights).

3. If the unit is still alive, Titanic Feet on your turn. Quick and dirty math says I'll get 8-9 wounds on a horror unit just from the feet, though that includes potential overkill since each one does D3 damage.

4. Fall Back, Shoot and Charge again on my turn.

In a 2,000 point game, I'll have about 4 Knights to do this with so if I can get to melee to use Titanic Feet then we can actually get through quite a bit of chaff.

Yeah, when dealing with hordes, use the ability to put out mass attacks.

Fire everything, charge in, stomp. At this point, you'll have caused enough casualties they'll likely evaporate. If not, you'll finish them off in their attack phase.

If you get back to your turn, and still engaged, fall back, shoot, finally finish them off, then charge another unit, rinse and repeat.

Our Knight player is going to be the answer to horde armies at ATC. Can just put out a ridiculous amount of damage, and has the most realistic chances of dropping horde armies.

As knight players, what is the hardest for you to deal with? For example as a necron player I am most scared of hordes, especially in CC. We melt.

Deep Striking melta is probably the worst. Plasma isn't as bad cause it only wounds on a 4+, but it still hurts.

Basically, we fear anti-tank weapons that, for one reason or another, we can't try to stop by striking first. Fast, high AP melee (like Genestealers) are second.

Audustum wrote:
Deep Striking melta is probably the worst. Plasma isn't as bad cause it only wounds on a 4+, but it still hurts.

Basically, we fear anti-tank weapons that, for one reason or another, we can't try to stop by striking first. Fast, high AP melee (like Genestealers) are second.

Yup. Bubble wrap seems mandatory for any meta that has lots of deep strikers, which with Conscripts or Brimstones, we can get cheaply.

Just got back from ATC, though I'd share my Knight players experiences with you guys.

Overall ended up best of the field of knights (they lumped Imperial and Traitor together). 105 points out of 120. He won all 6 games, tabling his opponent in 4 of them.

His pairings weren't exactly cake walk lists.

IG with Conscript spam, 4 guard squads with lascannons, 2 Hellhounds, 6 wyverns, 2 Manticores. (Objective win)

Traitor Knights w/ Magnus and some pox walkers (Objective win, only 2 pox walkers left when game ended on 5)

Calgar with 2 Primaris Plasma squads, 3 lascannon Predators, 2 Stormtalons (He tabled, apparently this guy had beaten 2 knight army's at the tournament already).

Space Wolves, with mixed grab bag of everything. Grey Hunters, Wulfen, Ragnar and Ulrik, some Longfangs, and a Stormfang. (He tabled)

Astra Militarum. Shadowsword, 2 Russes, Pask, 3 Scions with Meltas, and 5 Bullgryns. (He tabled)

Dark Eldar with 3 Ravagers, 2 Razorwing Fighters, 2 Hemlock Fighters, grab bag of MSU infantry and an Archon. (He tabled).

Looking around the room, overall experience was a mixed bag. A team we were friends with didn't do pairings for their Knight player so hot, and he ended up against a Shadowsword army turn 1, and some Knight armies in other games (I think the Calgar army out guy faced, beat our friends knight list). He had a Crusader, Paladin, Warden, and Errant. Kind of went for the mixed grab bag of Knights, and it seemed to bite him in the ass a bit.

Another good Knight player from our area went 4-2. His list consisted of 3 Knights with Magnus, and his Knights rocked 5 battle cannons.

Our guy had a Crusader with Battlecannon and Gatling, with Ironstorm missile pod. 2 Paladins with Icarus. 1 Paladin with no top weapon, and a fist.

I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.

The high strength. A lot easier to wound anything with str 8 then str 6.

Our Knight player is a 4 time ETC attendee, routinely trounces my ass in any game system we play. Has won every tournament in the local area I've seen him play in. Basically I've come to take his word as gospel when it comes to stuff like this.

He swears by the Battlecannon over any other option.

 djones520 wrote:
The high strength. A lot easier to wound anything with str 8 then str 6.

Our Knight player is a 4 time ETC attendee, routinely trounces my ass in any game system we play. Has won every tournament in the local area I've seen him play in. Basically I've come to take his word as gospel when it comes to stuff like this.

He swears by the Battlecannon over any other option.

I am just variable averse. 100pt for 2 shots just screams inefficient... but that is because I just roll garbage all the time. The average of 7 shots is really quite good. I will have to give it a go when I get a chance to roll a Knight-heavy list. Can't run them in my current League.

I think the Gatling Cannon is a very close second, the always 12 shots brings them together, but the lower strength makes it slightly less viable in my eyes, just simply because most vehicles it only wounds on 5's, where the Battlecannon is 3's, or 4's.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.

Mathematically, the Avenger outperforms the RFBC against everything except T7 targets (and there it is only by a fairly small margin). I think a lot of people are still in 7th edition mindset and haven't really done the Math-hammer on 8th yet. The RFBC does have the advantage of range if you want a stand-off and shoot Knight. I feel the best all-round Knight is a Warden with Stormspear and chainsword.

 Karhedron wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.

Mathematically, the Avenger outperforms the RFBC against everything except T7 targets (and there it is only by a fairly small margin). I think a lot of people are still in 7th edition mindset and haven't really done the Math-hammer on 8th yet. The RFBC does have the advantage of range if you want a stand-off and shoot Knight. I feel the best all-round Knight is a Warden with Stormspear and chainsword.

Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.

I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.

Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an aside, thoughts on the Acastus? Seems... very expensive.

You are paying for 6 more wounds and BS 2+ of which both are nice. The slower speed doesn't matter - how far will it need to go with those guns?

The Helios seems solid - good way to put a hurt on Stormravens and Stormtalons, while still lobbing out BS 3+ S8 shots at 60" against ground targets.

The Magnas are just silly. S12 AP -3 and 6 damage a pop is just insane overkill to almost anything not a giant beastly monster/tank/etc. Honestly, this thing seems like a Knight/Titan/MC killer.

I tried to work it into a list and wasn't shocked it maxed out at 3 Knights.

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon & Heavy Flamer, RFBC, 2x Heavy Stubber, Stormspear
[585]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon & Heavy Flamer, RFBC, 2x Heavy Stubber, Icarus
[570]

Acastus Knight Porphyrion
2x Twin Magna Lascannons, 2x Lascannons, Helios Missiles
[835]

[1990]

The Avenger/RFBC seem like the best choices here because the Acastus will wreck any vehicle out there pretty well (in theory). But this list is very slim.

Thoughts on the Acastus and its applications (if any)?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.

I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.

Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two?

It depends, Chainsword is useful if you have to take on large opponents, it also only costs 1/3 the amount of the Avenger/RFBC. Having said that, a gun platform Knight does look promising.

Personally I think that the Stormspear is worth the points. With the extra shots and strength, it actually does more damage to fliers than the Icarus and multiple krak missiles really double-down on vehicle killing.

If you take a Knight, you are spending a lot of points on a platform that can move and fire its heavy weapons without penalty. It make sense to maximise the opportunity benefits.

 Karhedron wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.

I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.

Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two?

It depends, Chainsword is useful if you have to take on large opponents, it also only costs 1/3 the amount of the Avenger/RFBC. Having said that, a gun platform Knight does look promising.

Personally I think that the Stormspear is worth the points. With the extra shots and strength, it actually does more damage to fliers than the Icarus and multiple krak missiles really double-down on vehicle killing.

If you take a Knight, you are spending a lot of points on a platform that can move and fire its heavy weapons without penalty. It make sense to maximise the opportunity benefits.

Fair point about the Icarus vs Stormspear. Likely it comes down to points, since fitting in the Stormspear isn't always doable.

I don't know if I think the Reaper is worth it even still. Feet take care of so much and with us just backing out of combat and laying down firepower - why opt for something we may never use when we could get a gun? 1/3 the price of the Avenger or RFBC, but only 46pt less than a Thermal, which I think is the better option (vs Reaper).

In the next two months or so, I am putting my Knights together for upcoming tourneys - doing a trio or maybe even four depending. So I will report in once I get some more table time with them. Just too busy with my AdMech atm.

What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.

 Wulfenone wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.

Scions seem like a solid alpha strike element to me. Opting for a bunch of Command and 10-man teams with the Rod for multiple orders gives you a hell of a first or second turn glass cannon that will either require a reaction by your opponent (taking heat off the Knights) or go unanswered and be a problem the next turn (as they continue to focus on your Knights).

And they are cheap, generally. The issue is though that you want three solid Crusaders for max firepower, which means it will be hard to find 500ish points for a worthwhile Scions detachment.

This is about the best I could put together at 2k:

Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Elites:
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]

(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]

Troops:
(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Vox-Caster
[128]

(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]

(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]

[464]

Super Heavy Deatchment +3 CP

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

[1536]

[2000] 9 CP

The problem with using Scions is that you only get 3 drops, maybe 4, that aren't deep strike. Like in the list of of, four of your Scions are not going to be able to deep strike onto the board because you only had three Knights to put down.

Audustum wrote:
The problem with using Scions is that you only get 3 drops, maybe 4, that aren't deep strike. Like in the list of of, four of your Scions are not going to be able to deep strike onto the board because you only had three Knights to put down.

Ah, good point. That does take some steam out of the list. If you downgrade to even more basic Knights (why bother), you can add some bubblewrap with Conscripts to enable more drops.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Wulfenone wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.

Scions seem like a solid alpha strike element to me. Opting for a bunch of Command and 10-man teams with the Rod for multiple orders gives you a hell of a first or second turn glass cannon that will either require a reaction by your opponent (taking heat off the Knights) or go unanswered and be a problem the next turn (as they continue to focus on your Knights).

And they are cheap, generally. The issue is though that you want three solid Crusaders for max firepower, which means it will be hard to find 500ish points for a worthwhile Scions detachment.

This is about the best I could put together at 2k:

Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Elites:
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]

(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]

Troops:
(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Vox-Caster
[128]

(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]

(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]

[464]

Super Heavy Deatchment +3 CP

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]

[1536]

[2000] 9 CP

So this is what i put together for a 1,500pt maelstrom tourney.

So

Detachment: Questoris Knights

1. Knight warden - avenger gatling cannon, chainsword, heavy stunner
2. Knight Paladin - rapid fire battle cannon, chainsword, heavy stubber, ironstorm missle pod.

Detachment: imperium Scout Marines

1. 5xscouts (bolters)
2. 5xscouts (bolters)
3. 5xscouts (bolters)

Detachment: imperium Militarum Tempes

1. 1x Prime (command rod)
2. 1x Prime (command rod)
3. 4x Command (plasmas)
4. 4x Command (plasmas)
5. 5x Scions (2xplasma)
6. 5x Scions (2xplasma)


37 units. 6 Cps

Knights and Alpha striking Scions take the fight to the enemy. While scouts secure objectives.

What detachment are you using to take just three Scout squads and no HQ? Or are they in a Battalion and part of the MT stuff (Imperium keyword)?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
What detachment are you using to take just three Scout squads and no HQ? Or are they in a Battalion and part of the MT stuff (Imperium keyword)?

Correct they would be part of the MT detachment

Yo whats up with the lack of Knight discussion. Was thinking bout picking up a couple knights for poops and gigs off a friend, but poeple have stopped talking bout knights.

They drop like flies against eh wrong list and cant put out enough damage to compete atm? People just not running pure knights and resort to sprinking them in to thier lame SM and AM lists?

Since planning on playing pure knights ill prob go with renegades (as I would also like to loot them as ork proxxies for mega dreads later, thus easier to pass off as "renegade" knights) for the options.

Was wondering on options between Cannon and Gatt. Their profiles are too similar for my liking.

Im just blabbing, want to get some discussion going and see what peeps are running and or seeing on tables

It's probably worth noting that the Adeptus Mechanicus has a handful of stratagems that allow CP to be spent to benefit Knights.

Knight of the Cog, for 1CP, which allows an Imperial Knight to gain the Canticles of the Omnissiah for that battle round. The caveat is that the Knight must be within 12″ of an Adeptus Mechanicus Character for this Stratagem to be used. Other Stratagems that will affect Imperial Knights are Rotate Ion Shields: For 1CP, it will add 1 to your Knight’s invulnerable save throws for that phase; and Machine Spirit Resurgent: For 1CP, you can use a Knight’s/Ad Mech vehicle’s top damage table row, regardless of how many wounds it has sustained, until the end of the turn. Lastly, there is Benevolence of the Omnissiah: For 1CP, your Ad Mech Vehicle/Imperial Knight can ignore mortal wounds on 5+ for that phase.

In order to access these stratagems I think you need at least one battle-forged not-auxiliary detachment of Mechanicus in your army.

A few Mechanicus characters can also repair Knights of one wound per turn if close enough, and there is a relic which boosts that to two wounds.

I hadn't seen widely reported that AdMech codex changed Thermal Cannon from Heavy D3 to Heavy D6. No point value change.

Yeah, the Errant is in a good place now. It's the best knight anti-tank weapon by a clear margin.

Really makes the Crusader shine brighter. Now it is a bit harder to justify the RFBC, given its cost vs the TC now.

Crusader
Avenger w/ HF, TC, Stormspear, HS
[557]

Not bad. A shame the AdMech Codex dropped the ball so completely when it came to Knights.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Really makes the Crusader shine brighter. Now it is a bit harder to justify the RFBC, given its cost vs the TC now.

Honestly, I always thought the RFBC was pretty marginal to begin with.

A shame the AdMech Codex dropped the ball so completely when it came to Knights.

Well... I was hoping for more. But there is some good synergy with the various stratagems, and repair etc.

Most people seem to be speculating that there'll be a dedicated Questor Imperialis codex at some point, but we may have to wait a while. :/

Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:

AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:

AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76

Same as before.