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Hi guys, I've been trying to make sense of some weird comparisons in terms of power levels and I'm wondering if anyone has some insight in how the levels are determined. I'll share a specific situation that I'm struggling to make sense of.

My understanding was power level basically gave a general value of the cost of the unit with all of the upgrades it can take. This is disproven by comparing Space Marine Scouts and Space Wolf Scouts as follows.

If you're comparing a space marine scout to a tactical squad, it costs less points but more power. That should mean by themselves that they are worse (and they do have a worse save) but can be kitted out to be better (giving them cloaks and sniper rifles for example, but they can both take a single heavy weapon like a missile launcher so that shouldn't affect anything). So everything seems good so far, but now lets look at the wolf scouts.

Compare a wolf scout unit to a tactical squad (or grey hunters or the space marine scouts or whatever), they cost less points and less power. The wolf scouts get the same upgrade options to go for camo cloaks, sniper rifles, and instead of just getting one heavy/special weapon option you actually get 2 so they have more upgrade options to be better. That should make wolf scout power level at least the same as the space marine scouts but it isn't. The space marine scouts actually cost 50% more.

Special rules and transport options can't be the justification for the difference because then that would be reflected in the point cost as well but space marine scouts and wolf scouts both cost 11 points so they've been determined to be equal to each other stat and rule wise. The only difference has to be coming from the wargear options but it's working backwards from how it's described. Having more upgrades and special options is costing less power level.

Anyone have a different understanding of how power level is determined to explain this? Also, I know GW said they'll update the specific points costs as needed, but have they mentioned updating power levels if needed since that's printed on the data sheet itself?

Power level was decided with a good guess.

They claimed they had an equation, but it isn't followed.

The example you've given looks like a typo/error on Wolf Scouts. PL is supposed to be about 1/20th of the cost of a fully-upgraded unit, which puts normal Scouts' PL actually a bit low (camo/sniper, ML, powerfist/combi-melta sergeant comes to 146pts), but Wolf Scouts with a full load (camo, two snipers, ML, two power fists, combi-melta) are almost 160pts.

PL is normally pretty close (it isn't perfect, and it isn't even always rounded correctly, but it's almost always within 10-15pts when you finish building your unit), but there are enough scattered weird costs that I'm going to write this one off as a typo rather than look for something intentional about it.

Power levels only vaguely take into account extra wargear. Power level games aren't supposed to be played with all the best equipment, instead your supposed to quickly add up the power of the units you have then play WYSIWYG. This works fine with new or casual players with just a mishmash of weapons which they glued to their models but it doesn't work so well when playing people who have armies kitted out with the best weapons rather than the coolest.

I don't think we should be comparing points and power at all because they are meant for two completely different types of game.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Power levels only vaguely take into account extra wargear. Power level games aren't supposed to be played with all the best equipment, instead your supposed to quickly add up the power of the units you have then play WYSIWYG. This works fine with new or casual players with just a mishmash of weapons which they glued to their models but it doesn't work so well when playing people who have armies kitted out with the best weapons rather than the coolest.

I don't think we should be comparing points and power at all because they are meant for two completely different types of game.

...Kind of. PL is usually pretty close to 1/20th of the points cost assuming you've taken all options (Vehicles are assumed to have sponsons, Crisis Suits are assumed to have used their hardpoints, Sergeants are assumed to have ugprade weapons, that sort of thing), so while you shouldn't be going through and finding the units that are slightly off the wrong way so your 100PL army is actually 2,050pts instead of 1,950pts you are sort of cheated if you take some under-upgraded options (e.g. 19pt Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns are 2PL/model).

From my understanding, both the Power Level and Points costs of a unit and its upgrades is compared to the rest of the army, not the units of another army. GW is taking into consideration how that unit fits into its respective army, not in comparison to an equivalent unit from a different Faction. An Assault Marine is an Assault Marine, but within the confines of an Ultramarine army versus a Blood Angels army, one may be worth more Points/Power Level than the other because that unit fill a unique role to another unit from that army, or it is a redundant unit thanks to other unit choices in the Faction.

Plus, some of the units have access to different pieces of wargear, especially in the case of Chapter specific wargear for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Those will be more or less powerful than "vanilla" equipment, and are going to be reflected as such in the Points costs and Power Level.

Also, we don't yet know what each army's Chapter Tactics (or equivalents) will be once released. These can definitely make changes to the Points costs and Power Level of units seem viable.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Kind of. PL is usually pretty close to 1/20th of the points cost assuming you've taken all options (Vehicles are assumed to have sponsons, Crisis Suits are assumed to have used their hardpoints, Sergeants are assumed to have ugprade weapons, that sort of thing), so while you shouldn't be going through and finding the units that are slightly off the wrong way so your 100PL army is actually 2,050pts instead of 1,950pts you are sort of cheated if you take some under-upgraded options (e.g. 19pt Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns are 2PL/model).

About 1/20th but there is a lot of swing, my primary list at the moment gives me a 1/30th ratio without everything fully upgraded. I'm not saying there isn't a connection (as there should be) but just that a power level using game shouldn't be compared to a points game and/or an army quickly built using power shouldn't be compared to an army built from points because the army constructed model by model, weapon by weapon will almost always win out.

I think PLs are 1/20th of Points cost for a unit that is neither base cost nor maxed out.

Or rather, it's the average of the lowest points cost and highest possible points cost, then divide by 20.
For example, the cheapest WK is the Sword/Shield no other guns @ 487pts. The most expensive is the Suncannon/Shield w/ 2 Star cannons @ 600pts.
That average between them is 543.5pts. Divide by 20 for 27.175
Ergo, the WK is rounded to Power level 27

3 Windriders with twin cats are 90pts. 3 w/ Scatter lasers are 105
Average is 97.5pts. Divide by 20 for 4.875
Ergo, 3 Windriders are rounded to Power Level 5

I think this formula works for almost all units. Using mostly non-upgraded units vs mostly maxed out units will create a variance in the 1/20th ratio.

-

 Galef wrote:
I think PLs are 1/20th of Points cost for a unit that is neither base cost nor maxed out.

Or rather, it's the average of the lowest points cost and highest possible points cost, then divide by 20.
For example, the cheapest WK is the Sword/Shield no other guns @ 487pts. The most expensive is the Suncannon/Shield w/ 2 Star cannons @ 600pts.
That average between them is 543.5pts. Divide by 20 for 27.175
Ergo, the WK is rounded to Power level 27

3 Windriders with twin cats are 90pts. 3 w/ Scatter lasers are 105
Average is 97.5pts. Divide by 20 for 4.875
Ergo, 3 Windriders are rounded to Power Level 5

I think this formula works for almost all units. Using mostly non-upgraded units vs mostly maxed out units will create a variance in the 1/20th ratio.

-

Exalted, was about to post the same
It's 1/20th of the Minimal a squad could cost vs the Maximum a squad could cost
With rounding, so occasionally a unit might be off by a power.

This means that if you're playing a competitive game or a waac game with Power. You will get more points worth of models if you use ones that have a lot of options or really expensive options.

 Galef wrote:
I think PLs are 1/20th of Points cost for a unit that is neither base cost nor maxed out.

Or rather, it's the average of the lowest points cost and highest possible points cost, then divide by 20.
For example, the cheapest WK is the Sword/Shield no other guns @ 487pts. The most expensive is the Suncannon/Shield w/ 2 Star cannons @ 600pts.
That average between them is 543.5pts. Divide by 20 for 27.175
Ergo, the WK is rounded to Power level 27

3 Windriders with twin cats are 90pts. 3 w/ Scatter lasers are 105
Average is 97.5pts. Divide by 20 for 4.875
Ergo, 3 Windriders are rounded to Power Level 5

I think this formula works for almost all units. Using mostly non-upgraded units vs mostly maxed out units will create a variance in the 1/20th ratio.

-

Very nice! Thanks for the info

You could have just said "it doesn't".

I just think of power level as population cap from dawn of war and then sleep soundly.

 Galef wrote:
I think PLs are 1/20th of Points cost for a unit that is neither base cost nor maxed out.

Or rather, it's the average of the lowest points cost and highest possible points cost, then divide by 20.
For example, the cheapest WK is the Sword/Shield no other guns @ 487pts. The most expensive is the Suncannon/Shield w/ 2 Star cannons @ 600pts.
That average between them is 543.5pts. Divide by 20 for 27.175
Ergo, the WK is rounded to Power level 27

3 Windriders with twin cats are 90pts. 3 w/ Scatter lasers are 105
Average is 97.5pts. Divide by 20 for 4.875
Ergo, 3 Windriders are rounded to Power Level 5

I think this formula works for almost all units. Using mostly non-upgraded units vs mostly maxed out units will create a variance in the 1/20th ratio.

-

That does seem like a pretty good balance between the other ways I've heard it described. Do you think Space Marine Scouts are just a typo then? And if so, do we know if they have plans to adjust power levels as needed? I know it's just supposed to be a rough idea of cost, but 150% of what it should be is pretty substantial.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

That does seem like a pretty good balance between the other ways I've heard it described. Do you think Space Marine Scouts are just a typo then? And if so, do we know if they have plans to adjust power levels as needed? I know it's just supposed to be a rough idea of cost, but 150% of what it should be is pretty substantial.

There's tons of units that don't follow that equation. Power levels were just guessed at.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

That does seem like a pretty good balance between the other ways I've heard it described. Do you think Space Marine Scouts are just a typo then? And if so, do we know if they have plans to adjust power levels as needed? I know it's just supposed to be a rough idea of cost, but 150% of what it should be is pretty substantial.

Scout Squad, 1 Sarge, 4 Scouts
11 per model * 5 = 55
Sarge - Power Fist +20, Combi Melta +19
3 Scouts with Snipers - +12
1 Scout with Missiles - +25
5 Camo Cloaks +15

= 146 points

vs 'base Scouts' which I can see them believing includes Sniper and Camo
55 + 15 + 20 = 90 points

146+90 = 236 / 2 = 118 / 20 =
5.9 Power

Actual Power cost... 6!

 Talamare wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

That does seem like a pretty good balance between the other ways I've heard it described. Do you think Space Marine Scouts are just a typo then? And if so, do we know if they have plans to adjust power levels as needed? I know it's just supposed to be a rough idea of cost, but 150% of what it should be is pretty substantial.

Scout Squad, 1 Sarge, 4 Scouts
11 per model * 5 = 55
Sarge - Power Fist +20, Combi Melta +19
3 Scouts with Snipers - +12
1 Scout with Missiles - +25
5 Camo Cloaks +15

= 146 points

vs 'base Scouts' which I can see them believing includes Sniper and Camo
55 + 15 + 20 = 90 points

146+90 = 236 / 2 = 118 / 20 =
5.9 Power

Actual Power cost... 6!

Right, and then for the wolf scouts

11 per model * 5 = 55
Sarge - Thunder Hammer 20
1 Scout with Thunder Hammer 20
2 Scouts with Snipers - +8
1 Scout with Missiles - +25
5 Camo Cloaks +15

=143 points

(143+90)/2 = 116.5 / 2 = 5.83 Power

Although I thought you guys were saying base cost of the model as in just scouts with no sniper rifles or cloaks so 55 points instead of 90.

I'm pointing out that they aren't consistently using that formula if that's what you guys think it is. Either they overcosted Space Marine Scouts or undercosted Wolf Scouts or did a little of both and they should all be 5.

No, I am saying you take the average of the legal base cost after wargear that you have to buy for them is added.
So if Scouts must buy their rifles, their base cost is them + rifle.

But there are some outliers that for some reason do not fit the formula. Like Dire Avengers are 3PL.
5 DA + Avenger cats = 85pts
The most expensive 5-man loadout is that same buy give Exarch Power Glaive & Shimmershield for 109pts total
(85+109)/2 = 97/20 = 4.85

So in their case, they should be PL5 in the formula. but this might be a case in which the cost of the DA is a typo (as many suspect). They are 17ppm after you add their weapon (which is expensive because the Autarch can also take it). The base DA is 10ppm, but should probably only be around 4-5ppm (so 11-12ppm total)
If you make that change, their PL does get much closer to 3.

-

 lessthanjeff wrote:

I'm pointing out that they aren't consistently using that formula if that's what you guys think it is. Either they overcosted Space Marine Scouts or undercosted Wolf Scouts or did a little of both and they should all be 5.

Agreed in that they should both cost 5

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant which is why I said it seems like it should have been 55 for the min squad instead of 90. There's still a large discrepancy between those two near identical units either way though.

Like you said, I've found a fair number of other examples that are off by 2 or 3 power level too which is instilling less faith in me using the system. Scouts are the kind of unit I usually like to field several of but having space marines get 20 for the same cost that space wolves get 30 is a big difference and not enough of a "rough estimate" for my taste.