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Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem with blobs of troops is that they're immune to morale tests with some very simple additions and mechanics.

The balancing factor in 8th edition against gigantic blobs of troops should be morale, but it simply doesn't apply when it should. If you light up the conscripts and kill 10 of them, they shouldn't be able to shoot someone in the head and call it all good. They should take the battleshock test the same way everyone else does.

The old balancing factor was templates, and AP that could slay them easily on most weapons. Both of these have been nerfed into oblivion.

The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

Breng77 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

If you are using da jump we are talking about a weirdboy, which has a cost of it's own and isn't that reliable. Then you have to get the charge. This is also a tactic you can manage once a turn tops.

You also messed up some math. You get 5 wounds on overwatch, not 2 (though the 8 total is correct). Which means you drop below the threshold for extra attacks after your first turn, and overwatch itself only has to be slightly more effective than normal to cut your charge down to 3/4ths its effectiveness.

So again not a counter. You are spending marginally more (25 boyz + weirdboy is 12 more points than LC and 50 conscripts), for a tactic that is risky (miss the charge, overwatch is better than average, potential perils), and doesn't scale (think of how badly this goes for the orks if three units of conscripts are near each other. Can't use da jump more than once a turn afterall).

That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

If you are using da jump we are talking about a weirdboy, which has a cost of it's own and isn't that reliable. Then you have to get the charge. This is also a tactic you can manage once a turn tops.

You also messed up some math. You get 5 wounds on overwatch, not 2 (though the 8 total is correct). Which means you drop below the threshold for extra attacks after your first turn, and overwatch itself only has to be slightly more effective than normal to cut your charge down to 2/3rds its effectiveness.

So again not a counter. You are spending marginally more (25 boyz + weirdboy is 12 more points than LC and 50 conscripts), for a tactic that is risky (miss the charge, overwatch is better than average, potential perils), and doesn't scale (think of how abdly this goes for the orks if three units of conscripts are near each other. Can't use da jump more than once a turn afterall).

Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

Boyz are cheap, you only need to throw distractions at your opponent to force them to ignore your other threats that then hit home.

Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Breng77 wrote:
Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.

The weirdboy also perils if the roll goes over 12, so that weirdboy can take a peril before he risks death. Which again, is an issue if you plan to sue it multiple times. Which is why the weirdboyz cost does matter, he can easily end up dead after doing this 2-3 times, and may not contribute much else.

I was assuming 25 boyz, which costs 150 points (same as 50 conscripts). At 30 boyz, we are talking about conscripts+company commander (with LC and weirdboy balancing each other out mostly). Which means either the conscripts get a second fight phase if they can't withdraw, or they can retreat, fire and then overwatch again.

If you pile into more units, you die. A unit of 50 conscripts kills 4-5 orcs, and you are stuck dividing your attacks. Your boyz might not even survive past the first fight phase if you try to take that many on.

Yes counters should at least be equivalently priced, ideally you want cheaper. But they should be roughly the same.

Also note: orks aren't bad boys are bad. Orks have good options (kommandos for example). Boys are just lack luster because they still lack an effective delivery system, outside a single psychic power usable once per turn with a psyker who will end generally end up dead in a few turns.

And no, 6 points isn't that cheap. That's actually right on the line between mind range infantry and horde infantry which makes sense given they also straddle that line in power. It does mean you can't afford to let them be just a distraction (that's what gretchin are for)..

 Galas wrote:
Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Not over costed, it really is the fact they lack any good way to get close. No transports can hold a unit of 30 and restricted to one use of da jump per turn. Combine that with the fact they are fairly fragile (toughness 4 and 6+ armor is rarely an improvement on 5+ armor, particular given what will likely shoot at the boys) and it's easy to rip them up before they get close. The fact even a small unit can do good damage helps, but they still struggle greatly and aren't what you want to focus on in an ork army, better to focus on commandos, bikes, etc.

The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

 Galas wrote:
The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

No, generally boys aren't that tough. Most 4-5 point infantry are as tough while being cheaper (with conscripts being even more absurd at 3). They aren't good at being cheap chaff, if you want them to actually be wroth what you spent, you need them to do damage, because that damage potential is a large part of their price tag.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.

The weirdboy also perils if the roll goes over 12, so that weirdboy can take a peril before he risks death. Which again, is an issue if you plan to sue it multiple times. Which is why the weirdboyz cost does matter, he can easily end up dead after doing this 2-3 times, and may not contribute much else.

I was assuming 25 boyz, which costs 150 points (same as 50 conscripts). At 30 boyz, we are talking about conscripts+company commander (with LC and weirdboy balancing each other out mostly). Which means either the conscripts get a second fight phase if they can't withdraw, or they can retreat, fire and then overwatch again.

If you pile into more units, you die. A unit of 50 conscripts kills 4-5 orcs, and you are stuck dividing your attacks. Your boyz might not even survive past the first fight phase if you try to take that many on.

Yes counters should at least be equivalently priced, ideally you want cheaper. But they should be roughly the same.

Also note: orks aren't bad boys are bad. Orks have good options (kommandos for example). Boys are just lack luster because they still lack an effective delivery system, outside a single psychic power usable once per turn with a psyker who will end generally end up dead in a few turns.

And no, 6 points isn't that cheap. That's actually right on the line between mind range infantry and horde infantry which makes sense given they also straddle that line in power. It does mean you can't afford to let them be just a distraction (that's what gretchin are for)..

 Galas wrote:
Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Not over costed, it really is the fact they lack any good way to get close. No transports can hold a unit of 30 and restricted to one use of da jump per turn. Combine that with the fact they are fairly fragile (toughness 4 and 6+ armor is rarely an improvement on 5+ armor, particular given what will likely shoot at the boys) and it's easy to rip them up before they get close. The fact even a small unit can do good damage helps, but they still struggle greatly and aren't what you want to focus on in an ork army, better to focus on commandos, bikes, etc.

SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

Pretty simple solution seems to be having a mix of fast units and footsloggers. Any of the 14" move vehicles will work, stormboyz would work too since they can move 12", advance, and still charge. Kommandos can also count as "fast units" if they deep strike. A 9" charge is pretty easy for Orks, 9 points a model is not a bad deal when it buys the rest of your army the one turn they need to dictate the terms of the fight.

Let's say you have a Darn of War deployment with 24" separation. The fast units charge first-turn, suppressing enemy fire for that turn and doing some damage. They don't need to survive the enemy's turn, just deny or suppress their first turn of shooting. Big footslogger mob moves 5" up, runs d6". If they have any targets that aren't in melee with the vehicles, might as well shoot because hitting on 6 is better than nothing. Second turn move 5" up again, now unless you rolled a 1 the previous turn you're in charge range (you're looking at 11-8" of charge).

If you brought a Warboss (and you probably do have a Warboss, with your mandatory HQ slots) you can even advance again, because he lets your guys charge after advancing. Easy turn 2 charge, especially with Ere We Go giving you re-rolls on it.

That's probably going to be a big thing with how to do well with Orks: hit in two waves. First wave is fast distraction units, who provide suppression so the big block of slow, killy units can hit the next turn. It's kind of the reverse of what Tyranids do, with their speedy gaunts and slow MCs (or speedy MCs followed by slow MCs in the case of Nidzilla).

For any deployment with less than 24" of separation, Trukks can do it. And Trukks are probably going to be surprisingly durable distractions, considering they have 10 wounds and the Ramshackle rule can let them just nope away multi-wound hits. Otherwise, Trukks allow you to spend your first turn shooting at 5+ instead of 6+ (open-topped) and then guarantee you a trivially easy second-turn charge (12" embarked, 3" disembark, 5" move, charge).

SilverAlien wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

No, generally boys aren't that tough. Most 4-5 point infantry are as tough while being cheaper (with conscripts being even more absurd at 3). They aren't good at being cheap chaff, if you want them to actually be wroth what you spent, you need them to do damage, because that damage potential is a large part of their price tag.

I'm sorry but to me the problem is with how cheap Conscripts and Guardsmen are, not with Orks. And I don't agree with this (need to be ultra tought and ultra offensive by the minimun point cost). After years and years of playing Fantasy with Greenskins, one learn to accept the great loses of your hordes and to support them with your more elite units. Obviously they aren't good alone as being cheap chaff. Because they aren't cheap chaff. They are ofensive cheap chaff, and they give your opponent the dilema of focusing them or suffering theyr offensive power.

But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Breng77 wrote:
SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

If he does it once he is arguably better than most, as transport capacity is less than 30 units for the majority. Though most are considered a bit expensive anyways.

Depends on how spread out the conscripts are. I was assuming relatively condensed, because I don't see much reason not to. With a 3" move, you are getting a good portion in the fight. Also note, if you don't consolidate towards them, and you kill all models within 1" of yours... they can just not move at all, and won't be locked into combat.

15 boys and the nob aren't even getting 20 wounds average (30 with all of them), conscripts have a 5+ save remember?

Showing you can beat a unit by using more points is rather pointless. Of course you can. But you don't get more points. If you are overspending here to deal with conscripts, the rest of your army is at a disadvantage and thus struggling.

 Galas wrote:
But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Eh, I disagree but I can see where you are coming from. I prioritize price tag/toughness and mobility over the potential damage for melee units and that's generally not been a bad choice in previous editions. Might not be true these days, but I just see warning signs all around them.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

I've tested it [outside of vacuum], and the Punisher makes a mess out of conscripts/equivalent. I'm hoping to put it to the test a bit more rigorously, in more battles with more aggressive opposition on saturday.

Lots of whining about a meta that doesnt exist yet. How about we play some games and have a few tournaments before we start talking about how powerful and weak armies are in 8th ed. It is funny every thread seems to be "my army now sucks and every other army is more powerful". Obviously this can't be true so let's wait and see.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

If he does it once he is arguably better than most, as transport capacity is less than 30 units for the majority. Though most are considered a bit expensive anyways.

Depends on how spread out the conscripts are. I was assuming relatively condensed, because I don't see much reason not to. With a 3" move, you are getting a good portion in the fight. Also note, if you don't consolidate towards them, and you kill all models within 1" of yours... they can just not move at all, and won't be locked into combat.

15 boys and the nob aren't even getting 20 wounds average (30 with all of them), conscripts have a 5+ save remember?

Showing you can beat a unit by using more points is rather pointless. Of course you can. But you don't get more points. If you are overspending here to deal with conscripts, the rest of your army is at a disadvantage and thus struggling.

 Galas wrote:
But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Eh, I disagree but I can see where you are coming from. I prioritize price tag/toughness and mobility over the potential damage for melee units and that's generally not been a bad choice in previous editions. Might not be true these days, but I just see warning signs all around them.

15 boyz get 60 attacks (if part of the larger squad), that is 40 hits, ~27 wounds, or ~18 unsaved wounds (2/3rds go through) (17.78) The Nob with PK gets 4 attacks, hits twice, likely wounds twice = 2 wounds 18+2 = 20 dead conscripts on average. 60*2/3*2/3*2/3 = 17.78. 4*.5*5/6 = 1.67, so 19.45 is the exact number. Pretty close to 20 on average. So yes they are getting 20 wounds on average.

If he removed the closest models I likely cannot hold him anyway but then he doesn't swing back at all. If he doesn't and I've piled in enough to hold him if possible, it is still likely that the remaining 30 models cannot all be within 1" of a model within 1" of my boyz.

It is realistically very hard to get that many models into combat range. If we grant it as easy. Then the orks do it as well and I get 96 attacks from the boyz 100*2/3*2/3*2/3 = 28.4 dead conscripts + nob = 30.
Only 20 to strike back, which do 2 wounds to the orks. He loses another model to morale leaving 19 for next turn. Then they are stuck in and I murder the rest next turn. Their best situation the next turn is to charge me with 100 more conscripts (which somehow all can get in combat (they likely cannot).

If likely he cannot charge with both squads and get max into combat, then either more orks survive the first squads charge, or if only once charges.
I interrupt with command points and kill off the first squad (average kills it to a maybe 2 models).

Stay tied up with the second squad with my 18 boyz against the 50 man new blob, Now I have a chance to charge that with something else (maybe I jump in another squad.)

But say I don't. I swing first killing 17 guys from that group. He swings back killing 3 orks. So I have 14 + Nob, and he has 32.

On his turn he either brings the 3rd squad in or not. (Presumably it might be dealing with other things by now). If not he kills another 3 orks. I swing Killing 12 more conscripts. (and another from morale very likely), so it is 11+nob vs 19.
My turn, I kill another 12. He is down to 7 models, who might kill an ork, he might lose another to morale.

I wipe him out on his turn if nothing joins the combat, or he cannot leave.

So my 30 orks + Nob (if everything can always swing like you propose) Attrition down 2 entire conscript squads in combat, or 205 points vs 300. If the conscripts don't play to leave combat they lose. They hit on a 5+, and wound on a 5+ with a single attack. Unless they are paying points for buffs, but then I could have included more buffs for my unit as well (Waagh banner anyone?).

If I bring other squads in to help I remove all the conscripts even quicker. I'm not saying it is easy, or this will always happen. But if you assume both sides get to swing everyone, orks win.

As for why the conscripts might not be super bunched up is that not everyone will have 90, and if he is trying to bubble wrap to deny deepstrike he needs to spread out a least a little. Even bunched up only 3 rows of infantry really get to fight some are in base to base maybe 4. So it depends on how wide the ork line is.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

Hogwash. The armies that lack snipers are more than capable of hitting the IG back in other ways. Orks and Tyranids swarm just as hard. Daemons have a lot of options which really depend on your patron. Take Disgustingly Resilient for example. FNP behind an armor save? Even that conscript gunline is gonna struggle when it's wounding most of the Nurgle Daemons on 5+ or 6+, then has to get through armor and then has to get through FNP. Khorne's guys seem to get plenty of attacks to kill them in melee without relying on battle shock either.

Then there's that guy who took like 9 Daemon Princes and Bel'akor as his whole army. I believe he's over in the Daemon Tactics thread and I think he also crushed an IG force.

I don't think other armies are being screwed over at all. You just have to learn to build and play different. This is a major meta shift. It's gonna be months before it's stabilized enough to know how everything shakes out.

fe40k wrote:
Makes me a little bit jealous as Orks.

Seriously though, 50 man Conscript squads just don't die, and then with FRSRF commands/fall back and shoot commands, they can get SO many shots (4 shots each at 12", up to 200! ). And here I was thinking Ork Shoota Boyz were shooty.

Sure, they can get "so many shots".
But not this way. Units may be affected by only one Order per turn, and it happens during the Movement phase.

"Get Back in the Fight" allows for you to Fall Back, if you can, and fire that turn.

Throw in some Manitcores/Wyverns, and maybe a super heavy; you've got so much firepower - and that's before the Heavy Weapon Team spam. XD

If you're taking a Superheavy, it's requiring its own Detachment.

Not sure if I'm complaining or not - That amount of firepower just decimates 30 man squads, even with a 5+ KFF. Even if you get to melee, they fall back, and shoot you with everything they've got.

It's Lasguns. No AP modifiers, nothing like that. Yeah there's a lot of shots, but you're basically unchecked for it. Hug cover as you advance and fire wildly back at the Conscripts.

I think I need more Kommando squads to tie things up; but terrain can make it tough to get there in melee (-2 charge distance is brutal).

What you need is line of sight blocking terrain. That's something people don't seem to get.

Thoughts on dealing with IG shooting as an Ork, and in general?

Make sure the table has LOS blocking terrain and don't just charge in?

If you have access to Sniper weapons, then take out the aura generators.
If you have access to things that can mess with Leadership, use it.
Etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

What bugs me is that we're still, as far as I've seen, the only army required to outfit the leader of our squads with weapons different to the rest of the squad.
No Guard Sergeants with Lasguns or Tempestors with Hellguns is really irritating.

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

It's really hard to find in the Chaos index. Part of the problem is the way GW split up the rules and gave everything wonky names. For some reason the sniper units are called Sorcerers and the sniper rifles are called Infernal Gaze. Just to be wacky, GW also made Chaos snipers only have half range, but they do get 3 shots (though admittedly they are locked to hitting on a 4+ for some reason. Demons in the scopes?)

I can totally see why you might not notice at first. GW really should work on making the indices more readable.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
Make sure the table has LOS blocking terrain and don't just charge in?

The Mortars, Wyverns, Basilisks and Manticores crammed behind the wall of flesh just giggle and keep firing. As do the commissars, which can hide behind LOS blocking terrain yet still hand out effective immunity to morale.

Yes, Guard players can decree that you can't interact with the things that are killing your army until you murder the wall of conscripts the hard way.

Bring all the snipers in the world, but the corners of standard-issue GW ruins are quite effective at completely hiding a single model on a 25mm base.

@Kanluwen:

You can't hug cover with a 30 model squad; only elite armies (Space Marines) can reliably use cover this addition.

@Voss:

Yeah, that's the problem - the Conscripts are chaff; but 50 wounds is no joke to chew through; especially when they have a reasonable change of hurting you back.

IG vehicles meanwhile are behind this wall of chaff, and don''t need LOS to drop 4d6+ attacks on your squads of infantry/other units as they advance.

The only hope is to deepstrike in and tie them up; but GL getting that close if the Guard player is any decent.

@Audustum/other:

Xenos don't have snipers - Only Imperium armies get that now.

What are we supposed to do about support characters, without snipers? Gotta fight through everything to try and catch out a character; it's our only real way of getting to them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

**Pssst** Take a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with the Warptime power. Teleport in 9" from the Commissar. Cast Warptime for a bonus 5" move. Cast another power of your choice for lols (your choice of doing Mortal Wounds or casting Prescience to hit things better). Fire your combi-bolter at something. Make a 4" Charge. Smack him in the face with your Force Axe for no save (unless Lord Commissar who has 5+ invul) and d3 damage on each wound. Praise Lorgar.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

**Pssst** Take a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with the Warptime power. Teleport in 9" from the Commissar. Cast Warptime for a bonus 5" move. Cast another power of your choice for lols (your choice of doing Mortal Wounds or casting Prescience to hit things better). Fire your combi-bolter at something. Make a 4" Charge. Smack him in the face with your Force Axe for no save (unless Lord Commissar who has 5+ invul) and d3 damage on each wound. Praise Lorgar.

I'm puzzled how this is done if there is a 50 man conscript unit on the table? And also little bit about how the snipers would be going to help if there is any Los blocking terrain on the table.

The point was Chaos can use teleporting Terminators, buffed by a Psychic Power, to single out enemy characters.