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How do?

No, not so much a whinge about the current/previous incarnation of Chaos, but a bit of excited frothing for what we might be looking forward to.

First things first. 8th promises to give us the game we want. Hurrah! And from those I know who've played it, it seems to be delivering at this early stage. Double hurrah!

But then....then comes Chaos.

See, Loyalist Maureens just got shiny new Primaris Maureens to reinforce them. And fair enough. Background wise I've always been of the opinion that the Imperium has a massive logistical advantage over their traitorous brethren. So I for one am not in the least bit miffed at that turn up. Other opinions are of course available, so I'm not making a blanket statement.

But Chaos....what we lack in number and basic resources, surely it's time our wealth of actual experience of warfare came to the fore beyond a not unwelcome but largely quite weedy 're-roll 1's to hit'. I mean, there's not just having played or survived every single dirty trick in the book, plus some you invented yourself, but there's being intimately familiar with every facet of your chosen wargear, knowing how to coax the last bit of oomph out of an engine, the exact angle to fire your weapon at to maximise any boost in parabolic arc etc.

Surely that would represent The Long War in a tangible way on the field - an advantage of sheer knowledge and ability to give you an edge against all comers, rather than just Loyalist lapdogs?

I mean, Astartes of any stripe are meant to be bloody excellent at strategy, with those who live long enough eventually becoming commanders. But when your Chaos, you're more likely to be a small band of desperadoes who've been fighting together for centuries, if not millennia. How about representing that in 8th?

Some inspiration can be taken from the lauded if slightly beardy 3.5 Codex, with the option of veteran abilities. For those who missed those heady days, you basically bought a USR for each unit. Could be infiltrate. Could be Tank Hunters. That sort of thing. Just boosts to reflect that when you're crafted to be a weapon, and you've been that way for pretty much ever, you tend to be very, very good at certain things.

Now of course, USR have gone the way of the dodo, and I'm wary of recommending anything which might attract rules bloat. Seems the joy of 8th Ed is it's been straightened and ironed out, with the rules you need mostly on the data sheet.

So how about just a wider choice of unit types for your basic or garden Traitor Maureen? Perhaps your experienced shooty units get improved Bolters, representing their skill (possibly a longer range, maybe -1 AP). Your experienced Assault Units getting A2. Nothing major or game breaking, just ways to show how given units or Warbands might favour one mode of war and thus are simply better at it?

Such concepts could be spread about elsewhere. Tank crews might gain a way to regenerate Wounds, representing a crew well versed in 'make do and mend', or having some kind of ranged bonus.

Hell, in Matched Play you have to pay for weapons. Why not perks as well?

Just something to show Traitor Astartes are just some spikes and a chip on the shoulder.

What say you, Dakka?

(Should point out this needn't apply to cult troops, who have perks all their own)

Codex's are on the way. I can play my World Eaters with Bloodletters right now, so I'm happy enough.

I'm kind of seeing Primaris Marines as the Loyalist Equivalent to Cult Marines, but still keeping the standard Space Marine feel of "good at everything, master of nothing" vibe.

I can see the coming Codexes (Codices?) for each army having its version of "Chapter Tactics" available. We are seeing it in AoS, and it works pretty well there. But, as you mentioned, it could easily scope-creep the armies into bloated messes again as they were in 7th Edition. We will just have to wait and see how it is handled.

We havent really had a good way of representing our experience since 3.5, since then the focus has been squarely on renegades rather than trying to bring back the feel of ten thousand year old veterans.

Personally, I would go back further, to 2nd edition, and split the Heretic Astartes list down the middle:

- The model chosen to be your warlord may gain the <Veteran of the Long War> or <Renegade Astartes> keywords in addition to their existing keywords

- If an army's Warlord has the <Veteran of the Long War> keyword, up to four units in the army with the <Heretic Astartes> keyword in the same detachment may also gain the <Veteran of the Long War> keyword (they do not need to be Infantry)

- If an army's Warlord has the <Renegade Astartes> keyword then up to four units with the <Imperium> and <Adeptus Astartes> keywords may replace them with the <chaos>
and <Renegade Astartes> keywords and be taken in the same detachment as the Warlord

Veterans of the Long War
an army led by a Warlord with the Veterans of the Long War keyword may
- Spend 1CP to allow a unit of <Veterans of the Long War> to reroll 1s to hit this phase (must be selected and spent before the to-hit rolls have been made)
- Spend 3CP to allow all <Veterans of the Long War> to ignore Morale damage this turn

Renegade Astartes
An army led by a Warlord with the Renegade Astartes keyword may
- Spend 1CP to allow a unit that may normally only deploy 9" or more away from an enemy unit to reduce that distance to 6"
- Spend 3CP to allow all units with the <Renegade Astartes> keyword to advance and fire without a -1 to hit penalty this turn

These would be accompanied by a price hike for HQs, but would allow the following builds:

An army of 10,000 year old veterans:
Take your HQ and four Heretic Astartes units, bulk out their unit sizes until you have 40+ bodies on the board, make them all Veterans of the Long War, spend your CP to make them accurate at shooting or vicious in combat (Or both!), bulk out the FOC with vehicles and you have a nasty force that is hard to shift (especially if you're taking them in 30K-appropriate MASSIVE UNITS and then spending 3CP on a turn you get battered to ignore Morale damage!)

A core of veterans surrounded by newer recruits and serfs
Take your Heretic Astartes Warlord, add in the units you want to make Veterans, bulk out your army with non-veteran CSMs, Cultists, Poxwalkers etc.

Post-Heresy renegades
It has NEVER made sense that as soon as you turn to Chaos all your Land Speeders, Plasmacannons and Centurions crumble to dust - so take them! Grab your renegade Chapter Master (Chaos lord with <renegade Astartes> keyword) and grab those units, converting their Adeptus Astartes keyword to Renegade Astartes and allowing them to fight alongside the rest of the army

Chaos Primaris
Nothing is immune to the touch of Chaos. if everything from a Primarch to a Planet can fall to chaos, so can Cawl's latest toys. Take your Intercessors, Inceptors and Hellblasters, convert their Adeptus Astartes keyword to Renegade Astartes and field them alongside your Warlord

Weapons of the Enemy
What about the Flipside? like the Relictors, some chapters meddle with forces they shouldn't, and skirt the line between acceptable curiosity and outright heresy. Your Renegade Astartes Warlord gives the Adeptus Astartes units you take the Chaos keyword as well, allowing them to be taken alongside their techmarine's latest vile experiment (Forgefiend) or some unwelcome help from the Warp (Daemons)

My suggestion is blanket 6++ invul save. The experience and warp energies protect the heretic.

Blanket rerolls of 1s for shooting and attacking because of century of exp.

CSM suck, as ever - unless you want to go rhino-rush mono-build berserkers all over the place.

Death Guard are just terribad, we can't even buff our terminators *even though they are mentioned in the fluff on the opposite page*

Obvs. codex blah blah, but that's waiting and paying more money *again*

feels like a kick in the nuts, geederps, thanks a bunch... :(

Right now we lack flavor, but so every army does right now. Even BA, DA and SW have been lumped into one codex with the other SM, so our legions are, unsurprisingly, in the same spot.
CSM are playable and balanced right now and I'm sure once the codex hit they'll get back all the legions again.
I wouldn't be surprised though if Crimson slaughter bit the dust. Nobody really liked them, who wants them when you have word bearers and even fluffwise they've been nearly destroyed in Traitors Hate. Don't expect them to come back. All the other legions though? They'll be there. Red corsairs might be a stand in for all the renegades and get their own rules, too.

Keeping an open mind, after the initial disappointment

Black Legion seems great if you have Abaddon

Summoning sucks

Magic sucks

Deathguard - terribad


There's little room for going down, so I guess things can only get better

Right now we have fairly balanced factions but none of them have any real flavour. The flavour will come, just be patneint.

People complaining about Deathguard lacking terminators, step back and look at what GW are doing. You don't have terminators because you're getting brand new cult-specific terminator replacements. Like we should always have had. Deathguard cultists have been renamed and given unique rules, as have the sorcerers and the chaos lords. Look at Thousand Sons, they got cult terminators with unique rules and models. Deathguard will get them too, and World Eaters and Emperor's Children. GW is obviously revamping the entire chaos model range, starting with the cult troops, giving us unique models with god-specific rules.

Expect Nurgle terminator units (my money is on them being corrupted Cataphracti suits) sometime around or a little after Mortarion drops. Just in time for the first chaos codex, Codex Deathguard. You'll get your full army list with rules for corrupted vehicles and maybe plague havocs (though if they do those I think they'll give them some weird plague cannons or something rather than standard wargear).

Just chill people and wit. GW rebooted their game. Everyone is starting from the same stripped back position. They're listening to what the players want, reading our suggestions. Veterans of the Long War will probably come with Black Legion rules and they'll represent those 10k year-old warriors.

I love the idea for giving a renegade list (combine them under the Red Corsairs keyword for simplicity of rules) access to Astartes units. Precedence has already been set with GSC being able to draw on AM units. No reason chaos can't do that with loyalist marines.

imo legionnaires should have a minimum of 2 wounds each and 3 attacks, basically the statline of old "lieutenant" characters. They're veterans of a 10,000 year war, they should all be hero-level by now (and pay hero prices). Essentially the Chaos counterpart to Primaris Marines.

new renegades should be generic "spiky marines".

Chosen should be split along those lines too, with Chosen Legionnaires being more akin to mid-level characters (or paladins) in statline and wargear choices.

We won't know until we get updated army lists with full rules and can compare them with what the loyalists get.

I'm not holding my breath.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
imo legionnaires should have a minimum of 2 wounds each and 3 attacks, basically the statline of old "lieutenant" characters. They're veterans of a 10,000 year war, they should all be hero-level by now (and pay hero prices). Essentially the Chaos counterpart to Primaris Marines.

new renegades should be generic "spiky marines".

Chosen should be split along those lines too, with Chosen Legionnaires being more akin to mid-level characters (or paladins) in statline and wargear choices.

The times where in Fantasy a Chaos Chosen was more powerfull than a Empire Captain

CSM are.... not amazing but the gap isn't huge between us and normal SM these days. Still lower end of the power range. I wouldn't mind some veteran style rules.

But we do get demons. It at least means we have a hilariously effective tarpit unit for anyone who needs one, brimstone horrors are fun.

Right now I'd say chaos are in a pretty good spot, with the gap between the Enlightened and the Foolish smaller than it has been in a long time.

The Shiny Special Loyalist Stuff is looking rather less special -grav got reigned in, Primaris are... amazingly mediocre for the Next New Thing, sternguard lost the amazing ammo types (and are around the same points as rubrics, but bring less to the table). Drop pods require thought and rational decision-making, rather than just mindless spam.

Sure something things could be better (possessed are yet again the things you pass over to take berserkers), but it's a fresh new starting point, and even fluff-wise, the forces of chaos aren't joke they have been for decades.

Berzerkers are just point for point better than any other infantry assault in the codex, they're better than gosh darn terminators with double lightning claws or power axe combi-bolter. They're just gross in melee and I honestly cannot wait for the Forge World book to give us our gosh danged drop pods back so I can start droppin' zerkers right in people faces with rerollable charges and Kharn right behind plus an Apostle and Lord or Warpsmith to popout and make transports explode AAAAAHHHHHH MY RIBDIS IS READY!!!

Seriously I bought the Kharybdis hella long ago for the KDK formation that ended up being meh because Berzerkers were meh, but now that not only are Berzerkers fantastic but I can stick HQs in the dang thing with them and they can all assault together I'm feeling like it will be one of the best deep striking units in the game. Couple of Bloodletter blobs walking up the table then BAM, 16 Berzerkers plus friends join the fun.

Voss wrote:
Right now I'd say chaos are in a pretty good spot, with the gap between the Enlightened and the Foolish smaller than it has been in a long time.

I agree with this idea, CSM are looking very good right now (relatively speaking.)

There are some gems in the new Codex. Noise Marines can jump out of a Rhino, shoot up a target, and charge it. Dream mechanics. We may not have all the special fancy stuff Imperials get, but Lascannons and Plasma are pretty good things right now. Berzerkers are the best they have been in a long time, and I really like what you can do with Raptors now that there's no scatter associated with their entrance. And it's nice that Heldrakes can turn 360 degrees each turn, that changes a few things.

Looking forward to Imperial Armor and the updates for my Fire Raptor, Spartan, Sicarans, etc.

Chaos playes quite nicely actually, although there's a certain lack of flavor due to the lack of special rules for legions & warbands.
As soon as these codices hit the market, people will - of course, as per usual - moan that they're bad, play a few games & still
claim they're bad even though they might be good. Same is true now i guess - although i'm actually quite happy since some units
actually play really nicely - rarieties like Defilers & Possessed are fun to play, probably not competetive material but others definately
are.

I personally like all the Cult Marines, whether it is Assault-3 on Sonic Blasters, AP-2 on Inferno Boltguns or the Berzi-Bonus Charge.
Heldrakes are basically Flyer-hunters & "Tank"-destroyer, Dino-Bots are nice (although i wish the Maulerfiend gets a slight buff on
its WS, +4 is a bit low), Defilers are Brutal in CC & tough as nails. Since i play Crimson Slaughter & am in love with Possessed and
Dark Apostles this Edition will be awesome for me, so i'm probably to biased.. so take everything with some

CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

 Strg Alt wrote:
CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

EC got a big boost with Lucius finally having an overall use and sonic guns no longer terrible (Even if Doom Sirens aren't the greatest anymore)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

Spoiler:

EC got a big boost with Lucius finally having an overall use and sonic guns no longer terrible (Even if Doom Sirens aren't the greatest anymore)

That´s no bait but the sensible thing to do. You already have four different chaos gods with their corresponding special units. That´s ought to be enough. GW should visit the Ork clans, Eldar craftworlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. and give them some special snowflakes, too. The Xenos players would be eternally grateful for this kind of attention.
You don´t want to give the Chaos forces an op Codex like 3.5 again. Just don´t open this can of worms.
SM Uber-Marines on the other hand are the new toys from GW. It´s no surprise that they will be over the top.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

Spoiler:

EC got a big boost with Lucius finally having an overall use and sonic guns no longer terrible (Even if Doom Sirens aren't the greatest anymore)

I concur (to both). But the biggest winners in this book is the Berserkers. Even without all of the buffs, being able to charge out of (relatively) cheap rhinos is a huge bonus.

Also, Combi Weapons. Combi Weapons for days.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
imo legionnaires should have a minimum of 2 wounds each and 3 attacks, basically the statline of old "lieutenant" characters. They're veterans of a 10,000 year war, they should all be hero-level by now (and pay hero prices). Essentially the Chaos counterpart to Primaris Marines.

new renegades should be generic "spiky marines".

Chosen should be split along those lines too, with Chosen Legionnaires being more akin to mid-level characters (or paladins) in statline and wargear choices.

thing is you've be paying for that. big time. I think chaos marines are fine as is. they're pretty much exact equals of a tac squad, and pointed approperatly.

I wouldn't mind paying for it, but I'd really like some differentiation between the veterans of the heresy over the renegade noobs, at least a difference of more than 1 LD like in the last edition.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

Spoiler:

EC got a big boost with Lucius finally having an overall use and sonic guns no longer terrible (Even if Doom Sirens aren't the greatest anymore)

That´s no bait but the sensible thing to do. You already have four different chaos gods with their corresponding special units. That´s ought to be enough. GW should visit the Ork clans, Eldar craftworlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. and give them some special snowflakes, too. The Xenos players would be eternally grateful for this kind of attention.
You don´t want to give the Chaos forces an op Codex like 3.5 again. Just don´t open this can of worms.
SM Uber-Marines on the other hand are the new toys from GW. It´s no surprise that they will be over the top.

Because getting Traitor Legions then ripping it away 6 months later and never revisiting it would be the best thing to do for their CSM fans. We all know that they are doing special snowflakes given the tags like <SEPT> and the like. It'd be a poor choice to create such a keyword and not take advantage of it afterall.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
CSM should remain inferior when compared to SM. This difference in aptitude fuels their hatred and without it they stop being CSM.
Apart from the big four loyalists and cult traitors all special snowflake rules from other chapters & legions should be flushed down the toilet. GW has then time and resources to care for other factions that are not running around in power armour.

Spoiler:

EC got a big boost with Lucius finally having an overall use and sonic guns no longer terrible (Even if Doom Sirens aren't the greatest anymore)

That´s no bait but the sensible thing to do. You already have four different chaos gods with their corresponding special units. That´s ought to be enough. GW should visit the Ork clans, Eldar craftworlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. and give them some special snowflakes, too. The Xenos players would be eternally grateful for this kind of attention.
You don´t want to give the Chaos forces an op Codex like 3.5 again. Just don´t open this can of worms.
SM Uber-Marines on the other hand are the new toys from GW. It´s no surprise that they will be over the top.

Because getting Traitor Legions then ripping it away 6 months later and never revisiting it would be the best thing to do for their CSM fans. We all know that they are doing special snowflakes given the tags like <SEPT> and the like. It'd be a poor choice to create such a keyword and not take advantage of it afterall.

I am a former Tomb Kings player. You can imagine how I feel about the whole AoS affair. GW is known for retconning, neglecting or even outright squatting of factions.
But that is not the case with CSM. They are a mainstay of 40K and will always be available for collectors. I just don´t like the idea of all these special rules thrown at the remaining Legions. I played Night Lords in 3rd and my victories felt cheap with all these daemonic gifts and veteran skills. Do you remember Iron Warriors in 3rd? They were even worse offenders than the Night Lords. All this stupid stuff could rear it´s ugly head again with the advent of 3.5 special snowflakes for 8th.
The same can be said for the lesser loyalist chapters (Salamanders, White Scars, etc.). They just don´t need special rules. A different paint job is sufficient for them.

A lot of people claim that 8th is the most balanced edition so far in 40K history. Now imagine what these special snowflakes will do to this balance?

I played Night Lords in 3rd and my victories felt cheap with all these daemonic gifts and veteran skills.

Those.. were wargear options, not special rules. I'm going to assume your talking about their abilities which.. Weren't the most impressive which gave them the ability to bypass 0-1 on Raptors, +1 FA slot/ -2 HS and the ability to buy stealth as a Veteran Skill for those without terminator/bike/daemonic stature while only being able to take possessed, daemon princes, and furies for daemons with no marks.

Do you remember Iron Warriors in 3rd? They were even worse offenders than the Night Lords

Obliterators removing 0-1 restriction and Basilisks were the main issue given their strength along with the +1 HS.. Which given there's a specific heavy support slot detachment, is kinda moot nowadays.

So far you haven't exactly shown me why having extra rules is an issue on this front.

A lot of people claim that 8th is the most balanced edition so far in 40K history. Now imagine what these special snowflakes will do to this balance?

3rd edition was pretty good too with the codex, but many found issues with the overall blandness of it. I am willing to take this as a reason but at the same time I'd willingly risk this to get things I desire such as sonic guns for my Chaos Lord.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I played Night Lords in 3rd and my victories felt cheap with all these daemonic gifts and veteran skills.

Those.. were wargear options, not special rules. I'm going to assume your talking about their abilities which.. Weren't the most impressive which gave them the ability to bypass 0-1 on Raptors, +1 FA slot/ -2 HS and the ability to buy stealth as a Veteran Skill for those without terminator/bike/daemonic stature while only being able to take possessed, daemon princes, and furies for daemons with no marks.

Do you remember Iron Warriors in 3rd? They were even worse offenders than the Night Lords

Obliterators removing 0-1 restriction and Basilisks were the main issue given their strength along with the +1 HS.. Which given there's a specific heavy support slot detachment, is kinda moot nowadays.

So far you haven't exactly shown me why having extra rules is an issue on this front.

A lot of people claim that 8th is the most balanced edition so far in 40K history. Now imagine what these special snowflakes will do to this balance?

3rd edition was pretty good too with the codex, but many found issues with the overall blandness of it. I am willing to take this as a reason but at the same time I'd willingly risk this to get things I desire such as sonic guns for my Chaos Lord.

No, bad boy, you took the bait.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I played Night Lords in 3rd and my victories felt cheap with all these daemonic gifts and veteran skills.

Those.. were wargear options, not special rules. I'm going to assume your talking about their abilities which.. Weren't the most impressive which gave them the ability to bypass 0-1 on Raptors, +1 FA slot/ -2 HS and the ability to buy stealth as a Veteran Skill for those without terminator/bike/daemonic stature while only being able to take possessed, daemon princes, and furies for daemons with no marks.

Do you remember Iron Warriors in 3rd? They were even worse offenders than the Night Lords

Obliterators removing 0-1 restriction and Basilisks were the main issue given their strength along with the +1 HS.. Which given there's a specific heavy support slot detachment, is kinda moot nowadays.

So far you haven't exactly shown me why having extra rules is an issue on this front.

A lot of people claim that 8th is the most balanced edition so far in 40K history. Now imagine what these special snowflakes will do to this balance?

3rd edition was pretty good too with the codex, but many found issues with the overall blandness of it. I am willing to take this as a reason but at the same time I'd willingly risk this to get things I desire such as sonic guns for my Chaos Lord.

Night Lords:
Not impressive abilities? So a Raptor Champion with S6 I5 A4 on the charge with one reroll for hth attack rolls is not good enough? My former gaming buddies´ Dark Angels begged to differ.
And that is just a unit champion. The Chaos Lord could be buffed to unholy proportions.
What should he do? Deploy 5 man Deathwing Terminator squads? Yeah, right. They striked last in hth and their 5+ invul wasn´t great either. Whenever the pride of the first founding legion was deployed it was Safari time. Why? They just died like white elephants under Bolter & Heavy Bolter fire. My buddy mimicked this occurence by uttering a sad elephant trumpeting noise.

Iron Warriors:
You forgot about the Vindicator. They also had access to this tank. Multiple Obliterator units were absolutely beastly.

So far you haven't exactly shown me why having extra rules is an issue on this front.
The way to hell is paved with good intentions. I have to admit, this phrase fits the MO of CSM quite well. My examples tried to show you that the 3.5 Chaos Codex was universally reviled at the time because their their stuff was just op. You want to win your battles with tactics and not the latest cheese. Let the Uber-Marines be the TFG of 8th.

Slaanesh sonic guns:
This is cult stuff. Have a blast.

Every faction is getting a bunch of sub-factions,otherwise there'd be no need for the [Legion/Chapter/Craftworld] keywords. 8th released with every faction getting simplified but that was only to ensure that every faction got a clean slate to start from instead of the old slow-rolling out of new codexes that always leave someone as the red-headed-step-child. Now all the main factions are updated they can now visit each in turn and focus on adding more depth and detail. Much easier to add detail to a blank canvas than to try to take it away from an old painting, as multiple past edition changes have proven.

Adding more colour to the sub-factions will not break the game. It'll give the chaos and loyalist players the legion/chapter rules they really want and on top of that will give the same level of detail to the other factions too. Everyone wins.

Look at the way character buffs work in 8th. A lot of the powerful special rules have gone. Characters, even the most expensive ones, are fairly measured in their buffs. You don't think legion/chapter rules will follow suit? We won't see endlessly re-spawning cultist units or Cyclopeia Cabals but we will see things that add colour (reworking of VotLW for BL, infiltration for AL, leadership toys for NL etc). Probably one or two rules that affect the army and some restrictions on what you can put in such a detachment. That's it. My AL will be able to infiltrate again, and might get some minor warlord manipulation rule but won't be able to take cult marks or summon demons. Simple as that. Hardly game-breaking, but will make that legion play as they should from the fluff. It'll hardly break the game or cause power creep. Get a grip guys.

Slaanesh sonic guns:
This is cult stuff. Have a blast.

Can't exactly take Cult Stuff on anything but Cult Elite/Troops.