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steerpike92 wrote:
What's actually missing from the game are shrapnel cannons with a profile like 5D6, S2, AP 0, 1D.

Strength 2 just isn't really in the game, but it's the one instance you can more efficiently take points off a 4 ppm guard squad than a 13 ppm marine squad.

It'd take 18 shots to kill a marine, 4.5 shots to kill a guardsman.

Stormshard Mortars are pretty close. 4d6 shots, S4, AP0, 1D, Shred. They're also airbursting flechette launchers.

It takes about 3 shots to kill a guardsman, 8 to kill a marine.

Those charts are perfectly meaningless. They tell us nothing about the underlying assumptions. They don't actually show us your work. They are poorly labeled.

My guys being good against marines is irrelevent. This is the best unit i have to take out those conscripts. The next best thing would be Tzzangors and with 5 units for 350 points they would delete the conscripts and then all die to lasgun fire. But then I would probably lose 2 squads beforenthey even got to combat so.

 Traditio wrote:
Those charts are perfectly meaningless. They tell us nothing about the underlying assumptions. They don't actually show us your work. They are poorly labeled.

The rubric one? Yes. I made it in 30 seconds and didn't label it.

For each one, I used a python code that executed an attack, and recorded the number of wounds inflicted. Then, I ran the script 10000 times, and recorded each result.

I think they should have made Large Blast into

Heavy d3, This weapon increases to Heavy d6 if targeting a unit with more than 1 model, and Heavy 2d6 if targeting a unit with more than 5 models.

I don't know about you, but I usually expected to hit about 5-10 dudes with Large Blasts in previous editions.

Small Blasts could have been
Heavy 1, This weapon increases to Heavy d3 if targeting a unit with more than 1 model, and Heavy d6 if targeting a unit with more than 5 models.

Tho, I suppose... this is clearly too complex...

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
My guys being good against marines is irrelevent. This is the best unit i have to take out those conscripts. The next best thing would be Tzzangors and with 5 units for 350 points they would delete the conscripts and then all die to lasgun fire. But then I would probably lose 2 squads beforenthey even got to combat so.

What about Raptors? Aren't they basically assault marines? Points-for-points, Assault Marines seem to work out pretty okay.

You're guys are good at it. They're really good at it. But they're also paying a lot of points for the utility against heavy troops, which makes them less points-efficient.

Being good against marines is incredibly relevant, because you pay points for the versatility. You pay a lot.

They already have that type of profile for bombers and the Imperial Knight melta cannon. They just didn't give it to flamers, OR give flamer ignore cover which I find questionable.

 Quickjager wrote:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Yeesh, I didn't know playful hyperbole had been outlawed.

It's fine up until you try to dismiss people with it, you know, like you just did.

Pretty sure you're reading that in to what I said.

Given that A) I'm not dismissing people that say conscripts are good (I led with that point) and B) I don't think anyone seriously believes that they are an OP deathstar of a unit that will singlehandedly drive Chaos from the Eye of Terror, etc. etc., I fail to see you anyone could reasonably interpret it as dismissing people. At worst I could see it taken as a humorous ribbing at those who are overly afraid of the unit, not a dismissal of those who are seriously trying to figure out counters to what seems to be a good unit. Unless adding a little humor is against a forum rule that I am unaware of, I fail to see the problem.

To stay on topic at least a little, does anyone know offhand how some of the killy-er monstrous creatures fair versus hordes? They seem like they might be durable enough to wade through if they are costed appropriately.

I'm not sure what's up with the whole "conscripts are invincible" thing. I was mildly annoyed that they could exceed the damage output of a Leman Russ Battle Tank, but I'm less annoyed now.

I've worked out how to make my tanks functional, and found weaknesses to enemy conscripts.

I'm seriously worried about 'gaunts though. I can't beat the 'nids in drops, and even the best conscript bubble wrap will melt away on turn 1 from 'gaunts. If I do set up to go first, I'm not sure what combo of units is both expensive and really killy to sufficiently thin the horde.

Mostly, I focus on beating conscripts down point-for-point. Seraphim, as mentioned, are definitely really good at this. Punishers are pretty good at chewing them up too, but don't quite hit the points-efficiency mark. They've got the range, though, and the resilience.


The thing with IG tanks is, individually, they're pretty much crap, and since I was matching point-for-point I wasn't getting good results from them. But if you build tanks hard, and have Pask and Tank Commanders and tanks for the TC's to buff, then your crappy tanks get a lot better for their points. So I'm happy now, and don't have a problem with conscripts.

And really, conscripts are the same way. One unit of conscripts, and its support, won't contribute much. It's a mild roadblock if you brought it to take up space for a tank heavy army. But, if you really focused on infantry, then they're quite good.

I'm actually hoping now the knee-jerk reaction to Conscripts and Boyz and 'Gaunts is going to lead to people over-equipping for hordes and lacking antitank weapons in the meta, which would make it very fun to play with a load of heavy tanks.

Conscripts are underpriced; plain and simple.

200 points of models are damn near unkillable by any reasonable amount of force; and if you do somehow manage to get into melee with them, they just fall back and double tap your face, and you've just lost your unit.

To fully kill 50 Conscripts in one turn;

Hitting on 4+ (BS3)
Wounding on 3+ (S4-5)
Conscript 5+ armor save (AP-0)

Requires 150.15 shots to reasonably kill them in one round. No one has this much firepower; let alone at ~200 points equivalent.

Sure, you might say I'm talking about standard issue infantry guns (ish); but the simple fact is - it isn't reasonable to expect to be able to kill a Conscript Squad, at all. And that's just one squad - that doesn't account for the other 1800 points of army behind them.

Simply, at 200 points - they're too strong for what they do. They shouldn't be immune to morale, and shouldn't be able to accept orders - you should be able to delay them a turn if you get the charge on them.

Orders in 8th edition are based around 10 model infantry squads - this alone means an order on a full Conscript squad is 5x as effective as it has any right to be; there needs to be a limiter of some kind (either 1/6 odd of actually accepting the order, only 1/5 of the units benefit from the order, or straight - no orders for Conscripts).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to the initial discussion posted in the thread - I don't think Horde armies are OP.

I think people aren't bringing enough anti-infantry weaponry, and aren't using their vehicles/units to tie up hordes in a turn, forcing them to fall back and waste their turn, or sit there and fight a combat they can't do much in.

I suspect that very soon, people will realize the strength that Vehicles/Monsters bring to the table - good luck having enough anti-armor firepower in any reasonable list, while still being able to deal with Hordes.

Not to keep harping on them but - Imperial Guard are the only ones that can effectively handle both jobs at any price point; other armies have to focus on one or the other (or, if they're Xenos, hope that they can accomplish even one of the two to begin with).

Hordes aren't OP, people just aren't used to them. As Tyranids being to munch people, players will get better at positioning, screening, and tying things up in melee/using vehicles to block charge lanes.

Goodluck killing those blocking vehicles, they're too damn tanky this time around; at leas in comparison to their points cost. That doesn't even begin to factor in the supreme weaponry Imperial vehicles can mount for around 100 points total.

The funny thing is to cover your conscripts from other hordes, especially melee hordes, you want baneblade variants. That ability to be in melee and still shoot is great, i'm interested in how IG lists turn out and fully expect one SHV in each.

 Quickjager wrote:
The funny thing is to cover your conscripts from other hordes, especially melee hordes, you want baneblade variants. That ability to be in melee and still shoot is great, i'm interested in how IG lists turn out and fully expect one SHV in each.

Not even joking, this bit is stupid. Baneblades should NOT under ANY circumstances WANT to be in combat. I see what they were trying to do flavor-wise, but the end result gameplay-wise is mindbendingly absurd.

fe40k wrote:
Conscripts are underpriced; plain and simple.

200 points of models are damn near unkillable by any reasonable amount of force; and if you do somehow manage to get into melee with them, they just fall back and double tap your face, and you've just lost your unit.

To fully kill 50 Conscripts in one turn;

Hitting on 4+ (BS3)
Wounding on 3+ (S4-5)
Conscript 5+ armor save (AP-0)

Requires 150.15 shots to reasonably kill them in one round. No one has this much firepower; let alone at ~200 points equivalent.

Sure, you might say I'm talking about standard issue infantry guns (ish); but the simple fact is - it isn't reasonable to expect to be able to kill a Conscript Squad, at all. And that's just one squad - that doesn't account for the other 1800 points of army behind them.

Simply, at 200 points - they're too strong for what they do. They shouldn't be immune to morale, and shouldn't be able to accept orders - you should be able to delay them a turn if you get the charge on them.

Orders in 8th edition are based around 10 model infantry squads - this alone means an order on a full Conscript squad is 5x as effective as it has any right to be; there needs to be a limiter of some kind (either 1/6 odd of actually accepting the order, only 1/5 of the units benefit from the order, or straight - no orders for Conscripts).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to the initial discussion posted in the thread - I don't think Horde armies are OP.

I think people aren't bringing enough anti-infantry weaponry, and aren't using their vehicles/units to tie up hordes in a turn, forcing them to fall back and waste their turn, or sit there and fight a combat they can't do much in.

I suspect that very soon, people will realize the strength that Vehicles/Monsters bring to the table - good luck having enough anti-armor firepower in any reasonable list, while still being able to deal with Hordes.

Not to keep harping on them but - Imperial Guard are the only ones that can effectively handle both jobs at any price point; other armies have to focus on one or the other (or, if they're Xenos, hope that they can accomplish even one of the two to begin with).

Hordes aren't OP, people just aren't used to them. As Tyranids being to munch people, players will get better at positioning, screening, and tying things up in melee/using vehicles to block charge lanes.

Goodluck killing those blocking vehicles, they're too damn tanky this time around; at leas in comparison to their points cost. That doesn't even begin to factor in the supreme weaponry Imperial vehicles can mount for around 100 points total.

Just FYI: they can't double-tap your face if they fall back from combat. They have to use Get Back in the Fight, which doesn't allows First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

Second, there's nothing that can wipe out it's cost in units in one turn anymore. Even Heavy Weapons Sections, notorious for being glass cannons, won't die outright to 72 points of firepower.

Third, nothing in their price range should be able to wipe conscripts out in one turn. They're a unit built on resilience, so against all but the most lethal of shooting the unit should be able to stick around for a few turns.

This is the same "problem" people are apparently having with 'crons. There's nothing in their cost range [240] that can take them out in one turn, or two.

Baneblades/other IG super heavy tanks are nuts this edition - charge into melee, and then sit back and blast everything with immunity.

I fully expect to see at least 1 in a couple tournament lists (if not 2-3); they bring a TREMENDOUS amount of firepower for ~550 points.

26 wounds is no joke either; 3+ armor save (or 2+ with Astropath) means it's going to take a LOT to bring down even one of these beasts.

One thing that I think is great is that the baneblade can use any flamers it has against the hordes while in combat. That would have been a great universal vehicle rule imo, very fluffy.

fe40k wrote:
They shouldn't be immune to morale

Given how they reworked morale for this edition, I think this is where adjustments should be made. Morale was supposed to be the things that handicapped large units, but the way the Commissar works, it doesn't scale with unit size. If the Commissar reduced the max losses to morale to one out of every 10 in the unit at the start of that turn (min 1), it wouldn't affect how they interact with infantry squads, but would help a lot when it comes to conscripts. Then if you kill 10 guys (reasonably done) you get to kill an extra 5 for free. The numbers can be played with as needed for balance, but I think the whole reason they are good for their points is commissars.

I'm not sure how much adjustment actually needs to be made here to keep them from dominating. Maybe only a bit (what I personally suspect), maybe a lot (as others here propose), but I think playing with how conscripts interact with commissars is all you'd need to change one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
One thing that I think is great is that the baneblade can use any flamers it has against the hordes while in combat. That would have been a great universal vehicle rule imo, very fluffy.

It's certainly great if you're playing with them in your army, but for the sake of balance, if they can shoot out, everyone else should be able to shoot in. Would actually be pretty flavorful for most superheavy units, actually...

fe40k wrote:Baneblades/other IG super heavy tanks are nuts this edition - charge into melee, and then sit back and blast everything with immunity.

I fully expect to see at least 1 in a couple tournament lists (if not 2-3); they bring a TREMENDOUS amount of firepower for ~550 points.

26 wounds is no joke either; 3+ armor save (or 2+ with Astropath) means it's going to take a LOT to bring down even one of these beasts.

Oh hell yes. I can't keep a straight face about the fact that my Shadowsword is my ultimate melee unit. What a silly, silly rule.

Quickjager wrote:One thing that I think is great is that the baneblade can use any flamers it has against the hordes while in combat. That would have been a great universal vehicle rule imo, very fluffy.

Oh yes. Flame Tanks are already awfully scary, this would make Immolators, Hellhounds, Flamestorm Predators, etc. broken as all hell.

Scout, Move, Burn, Charge to soak overwatch and be safe in assault, Burn again!

fe40k wrote:
Conscripts are underpriced; plain and simple.

200 points of models are damn near unkillable by any reasonable amount of force; and if you do somehow manage to get into melee with them, they just fall back and double tap your face, and you've just lost your unit.

To fully kill 50 Conscripts in one turn;

Requires 150.15 shots to reasonably kill them in one round. No one has this much firepower; let alone at ~200 points equivalent..

Tau Gun Drones assuming 5 Markerlights on the 50 Blob
49 / (28/36) / (2/3) / (2/3) = 141.75
49 because the 50th, the Commissar kills

142 / 6 = 23.66
24 * 8 = 192 points (+80 points of support)

fe40k wrote:
To fully kill 50 Conscripts in one turn;

Hitting on 4+ (BS3)
Wounding on 3+ (S4-5)
Conscript 5+ armor save (AP-0)

Requires 150.15 shots to reasonably kill them in one round. No one has this much firepower; let alone at ~200 points equivalent.

Hang on a second. If the argument is that it should be possible to remove a unit in one turn with a similar amount of points, wouldn't that mean that if each army has equal points, the one that goes first ought to be able to wipe out the enemy army before it can have a turn? Am I misinterpreting you here? Or are we using this absurd standard? And how am I only just now realizing this?

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

fe40k wrote:
To fully kill 50 Conscripts in one turn;

Hitting on 4+ (BS3)
Wounding on 3+ (S4-5)
Conscript 5+ armor save (AP-0)

Requires 150.15 shots to reasonably kill them in one round. No one has this much firepower; let alone at ~200 points equivalent.

Hang on a second. If the argument is that it should be possible to remove a unit in one turn with a similar amount of points, wouldn't that mean that if each army has equal points, the one that goes first ought to be able to wipe out the enemy army before it can have a turn? Am I misinterpreting you here? Or are we using this absurd standard? And how am I only just now realizing this?

My apologies - I should not have added "in one round"; it was more a comment on the amount of firepower required to remove a 3ppm 50 man guard squad; and the statistics I was using to calculate such.

This has no bearing on if units should be able to wipe eachother at a 1:1 standard (and to be fair, they probably shouldn't - not in one turn anyways; as you said - this would mean that the army that went first would always win).

I was just calculating that at those stats (BS3, S4/5, and Sv5+), it takes a ludicrous amount of firepower to dislodge a single squad; you can't count on morale kill thanks for the Commissar either.

General thoughts on the matter:

You see this virtually every time something both is and is called OP.

You saw these discussions about grav.

You saw these discussions about wave serpents.

You saw these discussions about wraithknights.

You saw these discussions about riptides.

You saw these discussions about the gladius strike force.

In fact, you probably saw these discussions about 5th edition transports and leafblower IG lists.

You know a pretty reliable way to know that something is OP?

A large number of people are complaining that it's OP, and a very vocal, very predictable number of people are insisting that it's not...and many of those people just so happen to use the thing that you're complaining about.

How can you confirm that it's OP?

Ask the person how you should deal with it. If he talks about list-building rather than in-game strategy, it's probably OP.

You saw this with Galef: "If you play SMs competitively, then you have no excuse not to use a white scars battle company with Khan...and everyone takes grav cannons in rhinos. If you don't take this, don't complain about my wraithknights and scatter bikes." Quoting from memory, but I believe that this was roughly the sentiment.

Did anyone notice this above in this thread?

"But Traditio, you mentioned all of the subpar options. You need to take razorbacks with assault cannons!"

But really, at the end of the day, what's the point of this discussion anyway?

Either GW will fix the problem or they won't.

fe40k wrote:
My apologies - I should not have added "in one round"; it was more a comment on the amount of firepower required to remove a 3ppm 50 man guard squad; and the statistics I was using to calculate such.

This has no bearing on if units should be able to wipe eachother at a 1:1 standard (and to be fair, they probably shouldn't - not in one turn anyways; as you said - this would mean that the army that went first would always win).

I was just calculating that at those stats (BS3, S4/5, and Sv5+), it takes a ludicrous amount of firepower to dislodge a single squad; you can't count on morale kill thanks for the Commissar either.

Ah, that's much more reasonable. Thanks for clarifying. I agree that some tinkering needs to happen with the conscript-commissar interaction. I don't think it needs too much change, but hey, I've been wrong before, and either way it should be a pretty simple fix. Assuming GW fixes anything, of course.

 Traditio wrote:
General thoughts on the matter:

You see this virtually every time something both is and is called OP.

You saw these discussions about grav.

You saw these discussions about wave serpents.

You saw these discussions about wraithknights.

You saw these discussions about riptides.

You saw these discussions about the gladius strike force.

In fact, you probably saw these discussions about 5th edition transports and leafblower IG lists.

You know a pretty reliable way to know that something is OP?

A large number of people are complaining that it's OP, and a very vocal, very predictable number of people are insisting that it's not...and many of those people just so happen to use the thing that you're complaining about.

How can you confirm that it's OP?

Ask the person how you should deal with it. If he talks about list-building rather than in-game strategy, it's probably OP.

You saw this with Galef: "If you play SMs competitively, then you have no excuse not to use a white scars battle company with Khan...and everyone takes grav cannons in rhinos. If you don't take this, don't complain about my wraithknights and scatter bikes." Quoting from memory, but I believe that this was roughly the sentiment.

Did anyone notice this above in this thread?

"But Traditio, you mentioned all of the subpar options. You need to take razorbacks with assault cannons!"

But really, at the end of the day, what's the point of this discussion anyway?

Either GW will fix the problem or they won't.

I haven't used conscripts since Chenkov went away.

You want on-the-board tactics for dealing with them? First, you have to have something that's not engineered to be crap.

I'm bringing a Pask Battle Tank w/ MM and Las, Punisher w/ 3x HB, and Stormtrooper squad tomorrow at 500. No Conscripts.

Asking you to bring a balanced and vaguely competent list is different from saying you need to bring the most optimal list. Your list at least has to have an idea about how it's going to meet the threats out there.

I suggested 2 different units you could use to kill conscripts: Razorbacks, and Assault Marines. That should doubly satisfy you, because those are "classic" space marine units that should be more than acceptable to field one or two of, Also, you could customize devastator squads for this purpose. 4x HB Devs will mangle their way through conscripts fairly okay, but that might be a waste of Dev's potential.

There are a wide variety of flexible options to deal with the Conscripts. If the Sisters of Battle, and our total of 10 units, can have multiple efficient ways to killing them, I'm certain that the Space Marines have more options.

Consider a Land Raider Crusader, maybe. It puts downrange what, 24 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots? That's working out to on the order of 13 wounds a turn. It's expensive, but it's also got other utility besides killing conscripts.


3 turns of absorbed fire really is pretty reasonable for a 200-point roadblock squad. It's a fairly expensive bullet magnet, comparable in cost to tanks.


Also, I've faced Tau a lot over the course of 6th and 7th Edition, and I don't see what all the fuss about Riptides is. They're not that scary. Bring the right gun, and poof, problem solved. My preferred solution is to bring Leman Russ Vanquisher Beast Hunter Tank Commanders, because they're ID a 72" range. I use a lot of armor and a fair amount of screening infantry with heavy weapons, and a lot of DS-Denial, and it works out well.

Further point. Check out the poll of this thread:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/728857.page

I'm not the only person who thinks that IG and Tyrranids have OP options.

I don't want to see that there's a consensus about it, but I will say that, if you take IG and Tyrranids together, about 40 percent of poll respondents think that they are top tier.

And it's not because of LRBTs.

This whole thread is meaningless because no one ever bothered to define what OP means. There's ample evidence available that horde armies aren't an auto win button in 8th, which rules out that definition as accurate. Personally, that's the definition I care about so I don't consider them to be OP.

I don't think that the "but I can't take any combination of units I feel like and win" argument is a valid reason that something is OP. Most of the arguments for horde armies in general, and conscript spam in particular, boil down to some version of that.

Also, a lot of the pro-OP arguments involve math that shows hordes being point efficient because of rare edge cases where they roll well or the opponent rolls poorly. Almost none of those same mathhammer scenarios take into account the opposite. If you are going to argue that a conscript blob can take 12 wounds off of a vehicle then you also have to take into account that a unit of wyverns can make a conscript blob combat ineffective in one round of shooting, as a completely random example.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I haven't used conscripts since Chenkov went away.

Have you played a game of 8th edition with conscripts and commissars?

Have you read a battle report of a game of 8th edition where one side used conscripts and commissars, and the other player was NOT playing IG or Tyrranids?

I'm not speaking from a position of pure theoretical speculation, and neither, I am sure, are other people who are posting in this thread or voting in the poll that I cited.

Assault Marines

Assault marines are not a viable option. I don't need to look at your charts to know this. Ask anyone who has used assault marines vs. 8th edition conscripts, and he'll tell you exactly what I am telling you:

Assault marines vs. conscripts are not only wasted points, but it's downright suicidal.

At any rate, my same answer is going to apply to literally anything you throw at me from the SM codex:

It's not worth it. Conscripts are too points efficient. Their losses are never going to matter. We are always going to be at a marked disadvantage.

@Inquisitor Lord Katherine/Traditio:

Just because you're not using Conscripts doesn't mean they're reasonably priced, and not overpowered; it just means you're gimping yourself.

Conscripts are not able to be dealt with in a reasonable fashion; 50 wounds of 5+ armor save, that can shoot you with up to 200 Lasgun shots, and/or fall back from assault and still shoot you: it's too much.

That's just one squad; all you have to do is take 2/3 squads for 400-600 points, and your entire 1400-1600 point backline is covered from assault (at 2000 points). For Imperium/Astra Militarium armies, thats a LOT of firepower hiding behind 150+ wounds.

It doesn't matter if they die "quick", 50*squad number of wounds, with an armor save (5 fething + too; I with Ork boyz had that), that's immune to morale, and can benefit from orders - it's too much for a 3ppm squad.

Try being a Xenos or non-Imperium army, and tell me how you'd reasonably deal with it.

We don't have 2 entire Indexes to draw our troops from (Imperium...), we have 1 if Chaos, and 1/3 if any other faction (1/3+1/3+1/3 for Tyranid/GSC/AM converts).

Oh, and Xenos don't get snipers, so you're never going to be able to take out the supports.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I haven't used conscripts since Chenkov went away.

Have you played a game of 8th edition with conscripts and commissars?

Have you read a battle report of a game of 8th edition where one side used conscripts and commissars, and the other player was NOT playing IG or Tyrranids?

I'm not speaking from a position of pure theoretical speculation, and neither, I am sure, are other people who are posting in this thread or voting in the poll that I cited.

Assault Marines

Assault marines are not a viable option. I don't need to look at your charts to know this. Ask anyone who has used assault marines vs. 8th edition conscripts, and he'll tell you exactly what I am telling you:

Assault marines vs. conscripts are not only wasted points, but it's downright suicidal.

At any rate, my same answer is going to apply to literally anything you throw at me from the SM codex:

It's not worth it. Conscripts are too points efficient. Their losses are never going to matter. We are always going to be at a marked disadvantage.

Uh no, because I inherently don't care about battle reports that don't feature the Imperial Guard or Sisters of Battle. It comes with the territory of being, you know, a Guard and Sisters player.

But, if you want a battle report, Tanks + Scions versus Conscripts and Artillery:

Manticores hurt. Basilisks don't. Conscripts make great bubble wrap, and putting all my eggs in one basket as it were [all AT was on Pask's Tank], wasn't a great move. But I did do a number on the conscripts, and they didn't do anything meaningful to the tanks. It was basically Manticore vs. Punisher. Leman Russes are decent when they're buffing each other. Scions weren't very useful, but I hope they'll be more useful against marines tommorrow.

Turn 1: Tanks go first. Punisher rips up some conscripts, Pask moves and puts a shot on the Manticore, but doesn't cripple it.
Turn 1: Manticore fires at Pask, Conscripts fire at Pask from far away, Basilisk fires at Pask. Pask drops a threshold, mostly from the Manticore, which rolled well.
Turn 2: Pask moves up and beans the Manticore, kicking it down damage threshold. not in Multimelta range. Punisher continues to churn up conscripts. Scions drop, kill a few conscripts.
Turn 2: Manticore tries, rolls bad doesn't do anything. Basilisk tries, kicks Pask down another threshold, Pask is almost dead [2W]. Conscripts kill scions.
Turn 3: Punisher continues to kill conscripts, who are now too weak to really be a threat. Pask makes a final go at the Manticore, and it's almost dead.
Turn 3: Basilisk doesn't do anything. Conscripts try to finish Pask, but fail, Manticore, launches at Pask, fails, leftover Conscripts charge and lock Pask.
Turn 4: Punisher glances down Manticore, Pask in CQC with a dozen conscripts does nothing.
Turn 4: Conscripts fall back, fire for no effect, Basilisk fires, kills Pask.
Turn 5: Punisher rips up the Conscripts. there's about 5 left, and they're out of position.
Turn 5: Basilisk fires, no effect, Conscripts have no effect.

End.

Technically, the Conscripts and Artillery won. The Basilisk was sitting on a point, as were the neglected guardsmen, while the Punisher could only hold one point. I should have ignored the Conscripts once they were under 20 and wiped away the Guardsmen, but that's that.

There's really no way to get at the Commissar and CC without snipers. Mostly the artillery blocked any reasonable Deep Strike to assassinate them. The Conscripts were incredibly unimpressive, though. They didn't do anything, were too unwieldy to move, and couldn't actually get in range to use their supposed damage output. Same goes for Multimeltas on Pask, but ideally there will be non-artillery and infantry lists to use them on tommorrow. Pask also rolled bad on his # of shots rolls on early turns.

Also, turn 1 HKM strike isn't a good plan for the artillery. It requires them to not be out of LoS, and isn't reliable. It is cheap, and perhaps in larger numbers though.

Lists:
Pask Battle Tank
Punisher
Scions

CC
Commissar
Infantry
Conscripts
Basilisk + HKM
Manticore + HKM


So, anyway, if you're not going to consider anything other than my soldiers committing ritual suicide at the presence of your unit worthwhile, you're never going to find anything.

I'm thinking of just throwing a nasty Grey Hunters unit at them with the Space Wolves, for the record. I've done it in 7th, so I'm sure it will work just fine in 8th.

fe40k wrote:Oh, and Xenos don't get snipers, so you're never going to be able to take out the supports.

This actually isn't true.

If you read the rules for characters, it only prevents you from targeting them in the shooting phase unless they are the closest visible models.

You can target anyone you want, including characters, in the assault phase.

So one way to kill the support characters is to focus fire down the conscripts in the shooting phase, and then multi-charge through the gaps in the assault phase.

That said, this is still hilariously inefficient, and you are still probably going to lose.

Fair enough - but it requires your opponent to have poor positioning; leaving their supports in range of a multicharge (9+ from deepstrikers will be the most common), and not removing key models that might block the charge.

But true, you can multicharge into them and try to kill them.