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I'm surprised I haven't seen any people worrying about how to deal with deathstars centered around Guilliman.

Re-roll to hit AND re-roll to wound in 6" during shooting, CC, AND overwatch.

Re-roll hits of 1 in 12" during shooting, shooting, CC, AND overwatch. Re-roll morale tests.

Extra inch of charge and assault in 12".
He's also basically impossible to kill.

1: Space marines have strong bodyguard rules, requiring you kill them before you can get sniper shots off against Guilliman.
2: He has a 2+ 3++ save.
3: If you kill him in the shooting phase, there's a 75% chance (with a cp re-roll) he'll return with D6 wounds, but only AFTER your shooting phase is over, so he'll still be alive until at least your next turn.
4: Even if you put together a unit that can take him on in melee, he can get veil of time'd, and he'll always get the jump on them, with 6, 2+ (w/ re-roll) to hit, S8 (w/ re-roll) to-wound, AP -4, 3 damage, hits. All that along with chucking out D3 mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6+. He's going to kill whatever you had within an inch of him.



Guilliman being good isn't a problem. He's basically a god.

Only costing 360 points is the issue.

In <=1000 pt games he's probably not overpowered, as the overall durability of your army will suffer severely by investing so many points in one model. Which will allow you to clear out everything around him.

In 2000 pt games 1640 points is enough to build a huge supporting force.

Here's the ratios between dice rolls, and re-roll-able dice rolls

Standard probability
2+ 0.83
3+ 0.67
4+ 0.50
5+ 0.33
6+ 0.17

reroll probability
2+ 0.97
3+ 0.89
4+ 0.75
5+ 0.56
6+ 0.31

Ratios
2+ 1.17
3+ 1.33
4+ 1.50
5+ 1.67
6+ 1.83

Space marines are in general 3+ to hit. Lets assume an average to-wound roll of 4+.That's a force multiplier of 1.33 to-hit and ~1.50 to-wound. Which multiply together to equal 2. At worst, on 3+ to-wound rolls you'll get at 1.33 to-hit multiplier and a 1.33 to-wound multiplier for a force multiplier of 1.77.

So you effectively double the Dakka. Or CC killyness.

Your overwatch force multiplier is an absurd ~2.75. Re-rolling for 6's is crazy strong.

Basically it boils down to the fact that you can project 1640 x 2 = 3280 points of effective firepower in a 2000 point game until Guilliman is killed. And I really don't think SM were costed with being able to double their firepower in mind.

Sure, Guard orders can double the firepower of big blobs of conscripts. But at least the commisars and officers giving the orders are a tax, and you can only double how bright their flashlights are. Guilliman is a close combat unkillable god on top of providing his aura, which affects anti-infantry and anti-vehicle equally. You can also bubblewrap your deathstar in conscripts if you want, making it a bitch to charge. The IG in the bubble also can easily be in Guilliman's 12" radius, giving them the re-roll 1s to-hit and re-roll morale tests.


Sure you can bring 50 ratlings for 350 points, but they're still going to take a few turns to take down his initial 9 wounds. And Guilliman will survive his first dying phase 3/4 times. So in total you have to strip an expected 9 + 3/4 x 3.5=11.625 wounds off of him to kill him. Good luck keeping rats with 36" sniper rifles alive for that long. Even if they scurry to 42" away from Guilliman, something with heavy bolters in front of him can easily close to within 36" and rip the rats apart.

In general snipers have a hard time of dealing with Guilliman and his super strong invulnerable save.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fGhXLPCfRTNsB_qbRh7noPGRr-iYDUxoRlIIrzK8D2c/edit#gid=773756901



Just my 2 cents.

He's the new GW poster boy, what did we expect?

It's what is to be expected of Rawfish Gut-a-squirrel

I just don't have the energy to complain.

GW really wants you to buy primarchs. I say primarchs because we basically know mortarian is coming possibly in his own pack of character slike gathering storm boxes if the rumors are correct. and then same for each other one that returns.

Just dish out as many mortal wounds on him as possible I guess.

You do realize that he, and Ultramarines, lost a ton of stuff in general, right?

1. We lost doctrines, which were rerolls on hits of everything on the table, not just within 6" of Guilliman. These could also be used whether Guilliman is in your army or not.

2. Guilliman gave you an extra set of doctrines in 7th, which again, were army wide.

3. Guilliman gave you all of the command traits in the Rulebook, which include the extra inches mentioned.

4. His melee weapon was strength 10 ap1 (which would be -4 save), and was a destroyer on hits of 6.

5. His weapon skill was 9, and with the old tables, that meant you were hitting him on 5s most likely.

6. He used to have a 5+ FNP.

Two lascannon wounds can kill him in this edition, also. Without heavy psychic buffs he's going to effectively be stationary, acting as a force multiplier. if you're making use of his melee, that means you're not making use of the units around him shooting, because they're probably in combat.

yeah, he's a strong unit, but ultramarines lost so much in 8th, he's the one bright spot.

 Rippy wrote:
Just dish out as many mortal wounds on him as possible I guess.

That's what sniper rifles do.

The problem is, if there are some absurdly powerful characters, the meta will have to shift to bringing 500 points of snipers. I don't think anyone really wants that.

steerpike92 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Just dish out as many mortal wounds on him as possible I guess.

That's what sniper rifles do.

The problem is, if there are some absurdly powerful characters, the meta will have to shift to bringing 500 points of snipers. I don't think anyone really wants that.

You don't need to kill him, by himself he's not doing barely anything. Kill the shooty units around him. That's his purpose, is to amplify those units. He doesn't make them harder to kill.

 Marmatag wrote:
You do realize that he, and Ultramarines, lost a ton of stuff in general, right?

1. We lost doctrines, which were rerolls on hits of everything on the table, not just within 6" of Guilliman. These could also be used whether Guilliman is in your army or not.

2. Guilliman gave you an extra set of doctrines in 7th, which again, were army wide.

3. Guilliman gave you all of the command traits in the Rulebook, which include the extra inches mentioned.

4. His melee weapon was strength 10 ap1 (which would be -4 save), and was a destroyer on hits of 6.

5. His weapon skill was 9, and with the old tables, that meant you were hitting him on 5s most likely.

6. He used to have a 5+ FNP.

Two lascannon wounds can kill him in this edition, also. Without heavy psychic buffs he's going to effectively be stationary, acting as a force multiplier. if you're making use of his melee, that means you're not making use of the units around him shooting, because they're probably in combat.

yeah, he's a strong unit, but ultramarines lost so much in 8th, he's the one bright spot.

While this is all true, it is also irrelevant since the new edition is a completely different game, everyone else lost all the crazy stuff they had before too, Space Marines are likely to get more abilities with their codex just like everyone else will, while still having the crazy goodness of Guilliman.

That said, I don't know that he is under-costed. I think time will tell, and hopefully if he is, GW will nerf him / raise the cost.

 Marmatag wrote:
You do realize that he, and Ultramarines, lost a ton of stuff in general, right?

Two lascannon wounds can kill him in this edition, also. Without heavy psychic buffs he's going to effectively be stationary, acting as a force multiplier. if you're making use of his melee, that means you're not making use of the units around him shooting, because they're probably in combat.

You aren't ever going to be allowed to shoot a lascannon at him.

It's almost totally irrelevant what a weapon can do. What matters is what a weapon is expected to do.

His aura buffs extend to close combat, so if that's what you want to do, you still get those force multipliers out of him.

It doesn't matter how strong anything used to be. I haven't seen anything as broken as Guilliman in this edition.

Ok. He's 360 points.

Corrected as was pointed out. I forgot to multiply in excel.

He gives you a 34% increase in hit chance for shooting (pretty much everything marine hits on 3s), and let's say an average 34% increase in wound chance. (looking at wounding on 3s, 4s, and 2s, averaged out).

So that's a net (1.33*1.33)=1.78 for 78% increase.

In order to recoup his point cost, you'd want to make it so that the 78% boost he's giving your units within 6", equates to his value.

He certainly seems like a nearly-mandatory pick if you're playing generic or Ultra- Marines. It's hard to imagine a decent 2k list that couldn't be improved by making room for Guilliman.

I'm not sure that this makes him broken, or at least not in the sense that he makes Ultramarines too good. He seems bad for the game because you don't want auto-picks, but if they didn't also have Razorbacks I don't know that Marines would be that scary right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok. He's 360 points.

He gives you a 34% increase in hit chance for shooting (pretty much everything marine hits on 3s), and let's say an average 34% increase in wound chance. (looking at wounding on 3s, 4s, and 2s, averaged out).

So that's a net 34% increase in your models shooting effectiveness.

In order to recoup his point cost, you'd want to make it so that the 34% boost he's giving your units within 6", equates to his value.

That would be about 1060 points. If you keep 1060 points nearby him, you'll recoup his cost of 360 points on average in shooting.

Yes you can take Guilliman and reroll hits and wounds, but you could also take a LOT of firepower for that same price.

Why do a 34% increased hit chance and a 34% increased wound chance only mean a 34% increase in shooting effectiveness? Shouldn't this be more like 78%?

Also, obviously Guilliman is an incredible CC presence, and having him means you don't have to worry nearly as much about counter-assault for your gunline -- it's not like you're buying nothing but the bubble aura.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok. He's 360 points.

He gives you a 34% increase in hit chance for shooting (pretty much everything marine hits on 3s), and let's say an average 34% increase in wound chance. (looking at wounding on 3s, 4s, and 2s, averaged out).

So that's a net 34% increase in your models shooting effectiveness.

In order to recoup his point cost, you'd want to make it so that the 34% boost he's giving your units within 6", equates to his value.

That would be about 1060 points. If you keep 1060 points nearby him, you'll recoup his cost of 360 points on average in shooting.

Yes you can take Guilliman and reroll hits and wounds, but you could also take a LOT of firepower for that same price.

Ah but that's claiming that 360 points is only the effect he has on the army.
He has maybe ~100 points worth of personal shooting/melee potential
Those 3 Command Points are probably worth another 30 points each

Now he only needs around 500 points of additional stuff near him.

This while estimating his personal shooting/melee at only 100 points.
Considering Karandas is 170 points........

Dionysodorus wrote:

Why do a 34% increased hit chance and a 34% increased wound chance only mean a 34% increase in shooting effectiveness? Shouldn't this be more like 78%?

I'm sorry I made a mistake. You are correct.

We should multiply the two percentage increases as they're compounded. I forgot to do this in excel where i do my mathhammer. 1.33_*1.33_ = 1.778 or 78%.

The core concept remains the same. Unless you're going to get the mileage out of the troops (as in soldiers, not force org troops) you put next to him, it's better just to add more models to your army.

He really does shine in a large, large army. In a 3000 point game, you could have a lot of really nasty units nearby him.

But let's also remember that other models offer similar benefits, like rerolling hits, or what have you. Other models also grant command points.

He is very pricey.

vs +3 BS, 3+ Wound, 4+ Save
1 * 24/36 * 24/36 * 1/2 = 0.222
1 * 28/36 * 28/36 * 1/2 = 0.302

36% improvement overall? total

 Talamare wrote:
vs +3 BS, 3+ Wound, 4+ Save
1 * 24/36 * 24/36 * 1/2 = 0.222
1 * 28/36 * 28/36 * 1/2 = 0.302

36% improvement overall? total

Reroll all failed hit/wound rolls in the 6" bubble, not just 1s. (1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.222, 1 * (2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * 1/2 = 0.395)

 Talamare wrote:
vs +3 BS, 3+ Wound, 4+ Save
1 * 24/36 * 24/36 * 1/2 = 0.222
1 * 28/36 * 28/36 * 1/2 = 0.302

36% improvement overall? total

Your buffed probabilities are wrong.

chance of passing a re-rollable 3+ is 4/6 + 2/6 * 4/6 = 32/36.

So

1 * 24/36 * 24/36 * 1/2 = 0.222
1 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 1/2 = 0.395

1.78 force multiplier, or 78% improvement.

^ know what it is,
My probability is if you can reroll 1s,
Not reroll all values

How much damage does HE do?

His output seems limited, and 360 for a force multiplier has to compete with taking 360 points of other stuff. You could get three Lazorbacks for that. Or come to think of it, three TLAC razors for 36 S 6 AP -1 shots. I think id prefer the razorbacks.

 Insectum7 wrote:
How much damage does HE do?

His output seems limited, and 360 for a force multiplier has to compete with taking 360 points of other stuff. You could get three Lazorbacks for that. Or come to think of it, three TLAC razors for 36 S 6 AP -1 shots. I think id prefer the razorbacks.

It doesn't take very many points for the force multiplier to pay for Guilliman. With 463 points and a multiplier of 1.78 you project 823 points of firepower, which is 360 more than 436.

So he pays for himself pretty quickly. Chuck in 1000 more points into his aura and he's paying for himself many times over.

Even if he were just an aura that would be great. Instead he can also advance up the table and tear anything apart in close combat.

Maaayybee? Im not convinced. It still seems to me that youd be building your army around a point heavy "hub", and in a game that appears to be more lethal, im not sure it'll pan out.

I certainly wont be using him, but I look forward to playing against people who try to do as you suggest. I mostly forsee the units hes trying to buff being taken out, and him kinda standing there looking vulnerable, despite his 3++.

Not to mention, the dangers of just being in a big clump. It doesnt sit well with me.

That would be a bigger problem if this was a Tau army, with so much strong shooting. But Space Marines are mediocre both at shooting and at meele, so the power of Guilliman is greatly diminished.

He needs to walk across the board with a horde of Space Marines to made him efective... what a tactic!
I'm sure theres no way of killing a horde of Space Marines footsloging for the battlefield...

Maybe is because I play Tau and I can basically shoot all of the unis he is supposed to buff to pieces before they can do anything...
But I'll agree that at 450 points, with all of his buffs, he seems more reasonable. Maybe 400 points.

 Galas wrote:
That would be a bigger problem if this was a Tau army, with so much strong shooting. But Space Marines are mediocre both at shooting and at meele, so the power of Guilliman is greatly diminished.

He needs to walk across the board with a horde of Space Marines to made him efective... what a tactic!
I'm sure theres no way of killing a horde of Space Marines footsloging for the battlefield...

Maybe is because I play Tau and I can basically shoot all of the unis he is supposed to buff to pieces before they can do anything...
But I'll agree that at 450 points, with all of his buffs, he seems more reasonable. Maybe 400 points.

Razorbacks are 12 BS3 S6 AP-1 shots @24" for 100 points

Crisis Suits are 6 BS4 S7 AP-1 shots @36" for 114 points

Yeah, thats why for me Guilliman isn't as scary. Did he buff everything with the "Ultramarines keyword", or just only infantry?

If he only buffs infantry the cost of 360 is appropiate.

 Galas wrote:
That would be a bigger problem if this was a Tau army, with so much strong shooting. But Space Marines are mediocre both at shooting and at meele, so the power of Guilliman is greatly diminished.

He needs to walk across the board with a horde of Space Marines to made him efective... what a tactic!
I'm sure theres no way of killing a horde of Space Marines footsloging for the battlefield...

Maybe is because I play Tau and I can basically shoot all of the unis he is supposed to buff to pieces before they can do anything...
But I'll agree that at 450 points, with all of his buffs, he seems more reasonable. Maybe 400 points.

this, gulliman can't be put in a transport etc. so a army based around Gulliman loses serious mobility. he'll have a place and I intend to use him on occasion, but in certain game types I'd rather havethe 360 points to put into something else. like I dunno... a trio of rhinos

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That would be a bigger problem if this was a Tau army, with so much strong shooting. But Space Marines are mediocre both at shooting and at meele, so the power of Guilliman is greatly diminished.

He needs to walk across the board with a horde of Space Marines to made him efective... what a tactic!
I'm sure theres no way of killing a horde of Space Marines footsloging for the battlefield...

Maybe is because I play Tau and I can basically shoot all of the unis he is supposed to buff to pieces before they can do anything...
But I'll agree that at 450 points, with all of his buffs, he seems more reasonable. Maybe 400 points.

this, gulliman can't be put in a transport etc. so a army based around Gulliman loses serious mobility. he'll have a place and I intend to use him on occasion, but in certain game types I'd rather havethe 360 points to put into something else. like I dunno... a trio of rhinos

He has 8" movement... Land Raiders are only 10" and Rhinos are only 12"
The gap isn't that significant...

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, thats why for me Guilliman isn't as scary. Did he buff everything with the "Ultramarines keyword", or just only infantry?

If he only buffs infantry the cost of 360 is appropiate.

Everything

Guilliman is undercosted, plain and simple. He buffs EVERYTHING Imperium, and more than doubly so for the friendly Astartes units around him.

But this isn't surprising - he's a Space Marine, AND the new Primarch's poster boy.

He's also very specifically 9 wounds as opposed to 10, so you'll never be able to shoot at him.

Bring snipers? What if your faction (like say, Orks) don't have them? Then what?

Even if you do somehow manage to kill him, he'll stand back up half the time with another impossible to remove d6 wounds.

The extra 3 command points are super useful too.

Compare him to Ghazghkull Thraka; the difference in what they bring to the table is insane. Sure,, Ghazghkull is 215 vs Guilliman's 360 points; but that's really not that much for a character.

Guilliman alone brings more than any Ork special character in any capacity - actually, most Imperium characters do this (especially other Primarchs).

But again; why does anyone expect anything that belongs to the Space Marine faction to be balanced against anything Xenos? If Space Marine's didn't win out every time, this wouldn't be Warhammer 40k - it might actually be balanced instead.

If you don't want Guilliman, fine, I'll take an Ork version of him instead.

Yes, he's blatantly OP because giving reroll some to everything should never happen in such a brutal edition like 8th. Not even a price hike is enough, turning everything in a massacre machine is not something the game needs (while being an intargetable tank too)