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 Trickstick wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

Yup.

Chop through cables. See if you can wreck its hydraulics. Even bending the right piece out of shape can cause further structural issues.

There was a part in the book Titanicus that had a titan fighting unsupported against a horde of infantry. They ended up climbing all over the thing, hacking their way into the cockpit and horribly murdering everyone inside. You just have to be a bit more imaginative in your vision of a battle than "they attack its toes".

It happens in a number of novels - Helsreach an Imperator Titan is invaded by Orks after being trapped.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

Yup.

Chop through cables. See if you can wreck its hydraulics. Even bending the right piece out of shape can cause further structural issues.

There was a part in the book Titanicus that had a titan fighting unsupported against a horde of infantry. They ended up climbing all over the thing, hacking their way into the cockpit and horribly murdering everyone inside. You just have to be a bit more imaginative in your vision of a battle than "they attack its toes".

I read that book, too. The traitors in question were specialists (dark mechanicum skitarii or such a thing) trained to fight Titans. They had access to grappling hooks and proper tools to get through that hatch on top of the Titan. Units like grots or conscripts on the other hand could never a ccomplish such a feat. They would die trying to climb that behemoth and don´t have the right equipment at hand to open the hatch. Your swiss army knife just won´t cut it. As I have stated before, you should need the right tools for the job and not just throw some dice at your opponent´s units.

I'm okay with units being able to hurt it (barely) because that simply needs to happen in the game, or no one will play against that unit. Now, conversely, I'd much rather see "armies" of Knights etc. not exist, so that you don't end up with the terrible paper-rock-scissors nonsense of 7th.

What I'm not okay with, is infantry units stopping the movement of a vehicle with the stupid "tarpit" nonsense gamey mechanic.

Regardless of how many infantry models are around the feet of a Titan or even a Knight (or a Land Raider for that matter) they should not impede its movement...that's a stupid gamey mechanic which is abused.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm okay with units being able to hurt it (barely) because that simply needs to happen in the game, or no one will play against that unit. Now, conversely, I'd much rather see "armies" of Knights etc. not exist, so that you don't end up with the terrible paper-rock-scissors nonsense of 7th.

What I'm not okay with, is infantry units stopping the movement of a vehicle with the stupid "tarpit" nonsense gamey mechanic.

Regardless of how many infantry models are around the feet of a Titan or even a Knight (or a Land Raider for that matter) they should not impede its movement...that's a stupid gamey mechanic which is abused.

Gamey Tarpit:
I´ll echo that sentiment. As a whole 8th is better than 7th but some of the new rules are half-baked at best (still no alternating unit selection, fixed hth rolls, morale and other stuff).

You need 5040 lasgun shots to down a warlord.

I mean you can do it but it isn't really realistic.

My god what have I started. It was just a joke at first but the internet sorta went "Challenge Accepted!"

Does it have any kind of rule about weak weapons damaging it? If not you could spam CHEAP S2+ Weapons against it and win. I mean for 3,000 Points I could take 1,000 Grots with S3 Grot Blasts thats 666 Hits wounding on 6s means 111 wounds. Against a 2+ save thats 18 wounds a turn and I have a hard time imagining you being able to kill 1,000 grots in a 6 turn game

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My god what have I started. It was just a joke at first but the internet sorta went "Challenge Accepted!"

Don´t worry, everyone enjoys this thread tremendously. Do you know by the way the rules for the Ork Gargant? It would interest me how he would fare against the Warlord Titan or even IG Conscripts.

Don't know if the Gargant still has rules but there is the Stompa and presumably the Meka Stompa

SemperMortis wrote:
Does it have any kind of rule about weak weapons damaging it? If not you could spam CHEAP S2+ Weapons against it and win. I mean for 3,000 Points I could take 1,000 Grots with S3 Grot Blasts thats 666 Hits wounding on 6s means 111 wounds. Against a 2+ save thats 18 wounds a turn and I have a hard time imagining you being able to kill 1,000 grots in a 6 turn game

Yeah, it can't. But it comes close.
It has a gun that can inflict up to 36 hits on an infantry squad. It can take two of them, so that's 72 hits.
It also has a pair of weapons called maulers, so that's another 12 hits, and it can take a vulcan gatling, so potential 20 hits.
That's 104 hits. 104 * 6 = 624 hits.
And that's not including the stomps. It only gets 20 though.

Going by its loadout, it seems the Warlord is more intended to fight other titans. It has a lot of options for Macro weapons, and those get double damage against units with the titanic keyword and buildings.
It also means that it can absolutely nuke a monolith


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My god what have I started. It was just a joke at first but the internet sorta went "Challenge Accepted!"

Don´t worry, everyone enjoys this thread tremendously. Do you know by the way the rules for the Ork Gargant? It would interest me how he would fare against the Warlord Titan or even IG Conscripts.

FW Xenos hasn't been leaked yet, sadly. We might see leaks close to release.
There are rules for the stompa in Xenos Index 2, but it's only PL49, with T8, 40 wounds and the titanic keyword. So the Warlord is just going to nuke it in one turn.
I'm not exaggerating; the quake cannon can deal up to 36 damage against it, and the warlord still has its carapace weapon, its other arm weapon and the maulers left.

Funnily enough, upon closer inspection infantry might actually be the best answer to the warlord, because a lot of its weapons are anti-vehicle and anti-titan.

Funnily enough, upon closer inspection infantry might actually be the best answer to the warlord, because a lot of its weapons are anti-vehicle and anti-titan.

Which is exactly why Warlords are not normally fielded without infantry support - they usually have their own dedicated Skitarri to protect them from such threats.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My god what have I started. It was just a joke at first but the internet sorta went "Challenge Accepted!"

Don´t worry, everyone enjoys this thread tremendously. Do you know by the way the rules for the Ork Gargant? It would interest me how he would fare against the Warlord Titan or even IG Conscripts.

FW Xenos hasn't been leaked yet, sadly. We might see leaks close to release.
There are rules for the stompa in Xenos Index 2, but it's only PL49, with T8, 40 wounds and the titanic keyword. So the Warlord is just going to nuke it in one turn.
I'm not exaggerating; the quake cannon can deal up to 36 damage against it, and the warlord still has its carapace weapon, its other arm weapon and the maulers left.

Funnily enough, upon closer inspection infantry might actually be the best answer to the warlord, because a lot of its weapons are anti-vehicle and anti-titan.

The Stompa is supposed to be in the weight class of the Warhound/Revenant, not the Warlord/Phantom. Not even the Reaver. That said it's lighter/slower than the Warhound, less killy, and doesn't have the void shields (though a KFF is only worse than a Warhound's void shield for the first five wounds on the Warhound, after that they're the same save or the KFF is better), but it is 2/3rds the price.

(Yes, I know, two Warhounds would still eat three Stompas for lunch.)

(As for infantry being the best answer to the Warlord: the funniest answer to me is giving it Fog of Dreams and drowning it in Harlequins. The stomps' AP and Damage become irrelevant, and they're hitting on 5+ from full health, and the Harlequins have a 4++ it can't do squat about, so it's going to kill three a turn on average rolls. This is, of course, contingent on the special rules page I haven't seen giving it guns-in-melee restrictions more like the Baneblade's (defensive weapons against targets in melee, big guns only against targets not in melee with it) rather than the Warhound's (all guns at anyone all the time), or at least a minimum carapace weapon range the way it's had in prior editions, and not giving people a huge penalty to hit it in melee the way it did in 7th, but if that's the case if you can get 58 Harlequins with Embraces (1,218pts) in range to attack it in melee without dying you can kill it in six turns. (Not factoring in pistol attacks, if you can get some fusion pistols in too it might be a bit faster. Or take fewer Harlequins. Also not factoring in rerolls for either side.))


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Funnily enough, upon closer inspection infantry might actually be the best answer to the warlord, because a lot of its weapons are anti-vehicle and anti-titan.

Which is exactly why Warlords are not normally fielded without infantry support - they usually have their own dedicated Skitarri to protect them from such threats.

Specifically the Secutarii. You know, the Secutarii Titan Guard.

(They're called that because they guard Titans, not because they guard Titan. No connection to the Grey Knights.)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Don't know if the Gargant still has rules but there is the Stompa and presumably the Meka Stompa

That´ a shame. I fondly remember Epic, where Gargants could fire their unique gutbuster belly guns. These huge cannonballs were the bane of Squat Colossi, Land Trains and Titan legs. You practically played bowling on a battlefield. Simply hilarious. Were rules for the gutbuster belly gun ever published for 40K? I guess for 8th this weapon system would be less impressive because templates are gone.

Hmm, so anything less than S9 is wounding it on 6 anyway, and with 3+ invuln, AP is useless against it.

So your options are pretty much S9/10 multiwound, a volcano cannon, or completely ignoring your weapon profile in favor of throwing as many dice as possible to fish for 6s. Or mortal wounds, 4000 points of Deathstrikes vs one Warlord? 4000 points of psykers tossing Smite (and suicide-bombing with Perils)?

Though, I think some big 'nid monsters can get more than S10 by taking Crushing Claws (2xUser strength). Of course, until you get to 16+ there's no difference from S9... the volcano cannon being exactly S16 and re-rolling wounds against Titans is perfect though.

Something this extreme makes for some very amusing mathhammer.

 ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, so anything less than S9 is wounding it on 6 anyway, and with 3+ invuln, AP is useless against it.

So your options are pretty much S9/10 multiwound, a volcano cannon, or completely ignoring your weapon profile in favor of throwing as many dice as possible to fish for 6s. Or mortal wounds, 4000 points of Deathstrikes vs one Warlord? 4000 points of psykers tossing Smite (and suicide-bombing with Perils)?

Though, I think some big 'nid monsters can get more than S10 by taking Crushing Claws (2xUser strength). Of course, until you get to 16+ there's no difference from S9... the volcano cannon being exactly S16 and re-rolling wounds against Titans is perfect though.

Something this extreme makes for some very amusing mathhammer.

Or 4000 points of Biovores shooting spore mines at it?

 ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, so anything less than S9 is wounding it on 6 anyway, and with 3+ invuln, AP is useless against it.

So your options are pretty much S9/10 multiwound, a volcano cannon, or completely ignoring your weapon profile in favor of throwing as many dice as possible to fish for 6s. Or mortal wounds, 4000 points of Deathstrikes vs one Warlord? 4000 points of psykers tossing Smite (and suicide-bombing with Perils)?

Though, I think some big 'nid monsters can get more than S10 by taking Crushing Claws (2xUser strength). Of course, until you get to 16+ there's no difference from S9... the volcano cannon being exactly S16 and re-rolling wounds against Titans is perfect though.

Something this extreme makes for some very amusing mathhammer.

There are actually a few really big things that can get a Strength that'd be silly under normal circumstances. Defilers, Imperial Knights, and Wraithknights are all S8 with access to x2-Strength melee weapons so they'd wound it on 4+. And Singing Spears/Witchblades would still auto-wound it on 2+, though with no AP that wouldn't be much help. And Hammerhand would make GK wound it on 5+ in melee, though as far as I can tell there's no way to make their attacks S9+ so no wounding it on 4+.

I do like the idea of pointing the new conversion beamers at it, too. Outside of 48" they're Strength 12 and dealing 4d3 damage (though if "for every 24"" means "for every full 24"" they're only Strength 10 dealing 3d3 damage), and you can get them on Rapiers at a very reasonable price. And depending on whether the Sicaran Venator's to-hit penalty stacks with other Venators you may just be able to pummel it into being unable to hit (though since five different Venators have to be able to deal at least one unsaved wound each from full health the crossover from "maybe" to "probably" (70%) is 28 Venators, which while amusing do cost 364 PL, are an incredibly heavily tailored list, and are just going to drop the thing in two volleys anyway (with sponson lascannons), assuming you have enough Venators left after the Titan's opening volley to still have 28 to shoot with.).

Keep in mind that it still gets saves against mortal wounds

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Keep in mind that it still gets saves against mortal wounds

571 Ratling snipers in squads of 3 is still a great idea!

My buddy brought up the idea of throwing Scarabs upon Scarabs at it since they will wound it on 5+ due to their special rule (if we read it correctly).

SemperMortis wrote:
Does it have any kind of rule about weak weapons damaging it? If not you could spam CHEAP S2+ Weapons against it and win. I mean for 3,000 Points I could take 1,000 Grots with S3 Grot Blasts thats 666 Hits wounding on 6s means 111 wounds. Against a 2+ save thats 18 wounds a turn and I have a hard time imagining you being able to kill 1,000 grots in a 6 turn game

Now calculate how many of those gretchin can get within 12" so they can shoot it.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Don't know if the Gargant still has rules but there is the Stompa and presumably the Meka Stompa

That´ a shame. I fondly remember Epic, where Gargants could fire their unique gutbuster belly guns. These huge cannonballs were the bane of Squat Colossi, Land Trains and Titan legs. You practically played bowling on a battlefield. Simply hilarious. Were rules for the gutbuster belly gun ever published for 40K? I guess for 8th this weapon system would be less impressive because templates are gone.

There was the "Belly Cannon" on the Kill Bursta, that basically liquefied infantry. It was something like blast radius 3d6.

240 Lascannon shots, not counting for degradation of the void shields.

Though Smite does Mortal wounds, so 30ish successful Smites unless I'm missing something. What's the cheapest "Deep Striking" psyker?

Is the 4000 points of the Warlord counting it's weapons? 40 Bare bones Librarians in 4 Drop Pods are pretty close to killing it in a round, I think.

 Insectum7 wrote:
240 Lascannon shots, not counting for degradation of the void shields.

Though Smite does Mortal wounds, so 30ish successful Smites unless I'm missing something. What's the cheapest "Deep Striking" psyker?

Is the 4000 points of the Warlord counting it's weapons? 40 Bare bones Librarians in 4 Drop Pods are pretty close to killing it in a round, I think.

The void shield save still works against mortal wounds, so you'd need more than 30 smites to bring it down. Mortal wounds are probably still the most efficient way to hurt it though, and if we assume you have 44 super cheap chaff units to to enable putting so much in reserves I think the librarians are the closest to killing it anyone has suggested, assuming a realistic table size and scenario.

It's 4k points exactly regardless of which guns it's kitted with, and I'm inclined to believe there is nothing at that points level which comes close to killing it in a turn without having the scenario skewed heavily against the titan somehow.

 Trickstick wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Keep in mind that it still gets saves against mortal wounds

571 Ratling snipers in squads of 3 is still a great idea!

Impossible. You cannot cleanly divide 571 by 3. That would give you 190.33

 Elbows wrote:
I'm okay with units being able to hurt it (barely) because that simply needs to happen in the game, or no one will play against that unit. Now, conversely, I'd much rather see "armies" of Knights etc. not exist, so that you don't end up with the terrible paper-rock-scissors nonsense of 7th.

What I'm not okay with, is infantry units stopping the movement of a vehicle with the stupid "tarpit" nonsense gamey mechanic.

Regardless of how many infantry models are around the feet of a Titan or even a Knight (or a Land Raider for that matter) they should not impede its movement...that's a stupid gamey mechanic which is abused.

WMH had the same problem in its first edition, so they added the Trample power attack. I fully expect to see something similar appear in 40k at some point.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm okay with units being able to hurt it (barely) because that simply needs to happen in the game, or no one will play against that unit. Now, conversely, I'd much rather see "armies" of Knights etc. not exist, so that you don't end up with the terrible paper-rock-scissors nonsense of 7th.

What I'm not okay with, is infantry units stopping the movement of a vehicle with the stupid "tarpit" nonsense gamey mechanic.

Regardless of how many infantry models are around the feet of a Titan or even a Knight (or a Land Raider for that matter) they should not impede its movement...that's a stupid gamey mechanic which is abused.

The titan isn't stopped by infantry though.
Read its special rules.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The titan isn't stopped by infantry though.
Read its special rules.

Well it still can't end it's move on top of enemy models, so it isn't too hard to give it nowhere to go. A titan needs to be on a very large base if you don't want it to fall over.

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
240 Lascannon shots, not counting for degradation of the void shields.

Though Smite does Mortal wounds, so 30ish successful Smites unless I'm missing something. What's the cheapest "Deep Striking" psyker?

Is the 4000 points of the Warlord counting it's weapons? 40 Bare bones Librarians in 4 Drop Pods are pretty close to killing it in a round, I think.

The void shield save still works against mortal wounds, so you'd need more than 30 smites to bring it down. Mortal wounds are probably still the most efficient way to hurt it though, and if we assume you have 44 super cheap chaff units to to enable putting so much in reserves I think the librarians are the closest to killing it anyone has suggested, assuming a realistic table size and scenario.

Well the reserves rule is only for matched play, so is this Warlord showing up in a tournament? Or maybe this winds up being a mixed force of Ratlings and Librarians.

It's 4k points exactly regardless of which guns it's kitted with, and I'm inclined to believe there is nothing at that points level which comes close to killing it in a turn without having the scenario skewed heavily against the titan somehow.

Impotant question then, can Void Shields be brought down with Null Zone? Or are Void Shields bypassed in CC, as in earlier editions?

Void Shields do not work in CC, no.

Void Shields do not work in CC, and they are not an invulnerable save so Null Zone has no effect.