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 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Seems like you could always say they froze from Space Wolves who underwent the Primaris procedure and when they need came, Big Daddy G had them unfrozen and returned to the wolves as allies and to help replenish them.

Gotta love Helfrost technology.

The idea that the Space Wolves required Fenrisian DANA really didn't make a whole lot of sense. It would imply the Emperor knew that Russ would end up on Fenris. If that was the case, why wasn't he the first Primarch found? Also the thousands of planets settled, Fenris was the only one to undergo Gene manipulation using Canine DNA?

Russ was the second found because Horus was closer on a world they never lost contact with.

The Canis helix is unique it can convert full grown men of 50 into full astartes with a better than 50% success rate, and the reason for that is fenrisians are heavily genetically modified they live on a world so cold it freezes baseline humans solid in seconds.

They can survive higher temperature as well because they experience helsummer every two Terran years, the thousand sons were surprised how little heat effected the vith while they recruited from African tribes struggled.

Stock fenrisians are already superior physically than any other population other chapters recruit from.

hobojebus wrote:
Stock fenrisians are already superior physically than any other population other chapters recruit from.

Highly debatable given that many Chapters recruit from Deathworlds like Fenris. Is this actually stated anywhere?

Did you miss the part about their being heavily genetically modified?

hobojebus wrote:
Did you miss the part about their being heavily genetically modified?

Nope - but various populations were modified pre Imperium of Man - does a source atually state that someone the Fenrisians are superior physically to any other population? Its not something I have ever read in all my older Space Wolf sources, Codexes etc. Yeah they have always been hardy but no more so than any other deathworld native

They can survive in temperatures that kill normal humans in seconds, i have to wonder if you've even read what i wrote?

Thousand sons, burning of prospero and inferno all make fenrisians being genetically modified cannon.

hobojebus wrote:
They can survive in temperatures that kill normal humans in seconds, i have to wonder if you've even read what i wrote?

Thousand sons, burning of prospero and inferno all make fenrisians being genetically modified cannon.

OK so the source is the novels (good to know) - is that were you read that they are specially stated as being

"Stock fenrisians are already superior physically than any other population other chapters recruit from".

We know that extreme conditions are survived by other DEATH WORLD populations. We have humans modified and evolved so they can withstand temperature, different gravity, toxins, radiation etc etc.

They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

I do too, especially as it enables sucessors to be created now given that the Primaris Marines used older heresy era stocks of geneseed. it, IMHO also adds some grimdark to the spacewolves in that they effectively had been sabotoged right from the beginning

 Mr Morden wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Stock fenrisians are already superior physically than any other population other chapters recruit from.

Highly debatable given that many Chapters recruit from Deathworlds like Fenris. Is this actually stated anywhere?

Sort of, Fenrisian survivabiliy have a heap of references but nothing outright saying they're the toughest SOBs available to power armour - there actually is the claim that Fenrisians can survive anything but that was made by a Space Wolf during a bragging session probably a drunken Space Wolf to boot, there's a passage in the 7th edition Space Wolves Codex - "Having fought with axe and shield against ice trolls, sea drakes, Fenrisian wolves and even rival tribes a single Fenrisian warrior would be more than a match for several dozen normal men." page 9 The Forging of a Legend - although what constitutes a "normal man" is questionable and Codex Fluff is as bad as Space Wolf boasting.

In Legends of Warhammer 40, 000 - Ragnar Blackmane.
Ragnar Blackmane and Razortongue, two Space Wolves landed on the Deathworld of Cretacia, I say "Landed" but they got captured and imprisoned when they returned a battle cruiser to the Flesh Tearer chapter with hopes of settling the bad blood between the two chapters - Space Wolves have a knack for upsetting allies - the Flesh Tearers give thanks by submitting the pair to a trial called "The Path of the Setting Sun" pretty much turfing them out into a Deathworld of nearly boiling point temperatures, where just about everything including the water wants to kill you.
The Flesh Tearers put down bets on the Wolves' survival with only one giving them a fighting chance in odds, he was sent out to collect the bodies.
Cretacia is the opposite of Fenris but both Wolves were alive when they were found, they even laid a successful trap for the Flesh Tearer sent to gather their remains - one made it off world, the other died killing the biggest, baddest predator on the planet - while dying from snake venom because Space Wolves!.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

The Canis Helix being design isn't a theory, that has been mentioned in the Ragnar Blackmane series, same with the Fenrisian tribes having canine DNA.
The only theoretical part is the linking of the pair to explain how the original Terran Space Wolves were possible.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

The Canis Helix being design isn't a theory, that has been mentioned in the Ragnar Blackmane series, same with the Fenrisian tribes having canine DNA.
The only theoretical part is the linking of the pair to explain how the original Terran Space Wolves were possible.

Daddy E hand picked them specially he would of known what specific gene markers were required for success and even then the success rate was lower than other legions, then they get to Fenris and even men in their 50's can sup from the cup and become legionaries.

If the fact full grown men can become sky warriors doesn't point to the link between the canis helix and fenrisians I don't know what does.

hobojebus wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

The Canis Helix being design isn't a theory, that has been mentioned in the Ragnar Blackmane series, same with the Fenrisian tribes having canine DNA.
The only theoretical part is the linking of the pair to explain how the original Terran Space Wolves were possible.

Daddy E hand picked them specially he would of known what specific gene markers were required for success and even then the success rate was lower than other legions, then they get to Fenris and even men in their 50's can sup from the cup and become legionaries.

If the fact full grown men can become sky warriors doesn't point to the link between the canis helix and fenrisians I don't know what does.

There's a bit of conflicting fluff on that - I've read the fluff you're talking about, there's also fluff that the Big E didn't believe any of Russ' Shield Brothers would survive, 3rd or 4th ed Space Wolves codex I think and more than half of the oldies didn't live, still, more survived than Big E was expecting.

Russ was always bound for Fenris, the Primarchs just got shot off earlier than intended. I think Angron and Lion were the only two who wound up on the wrong rocks.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are no tougher than many other feral deathworlders in the fluff- but in any case that's really damn tough compared to a baseline human in the first place!

I really like Dakka Wolf's theory. The Canis Helix is not a mutation-it's a completely intentional design. It's the requirement of Fenrisians as aspirants that is the mutation affecting all Space Wolves after the first Terran batch.

The Canis Helix being design isn't a theory, that has been mentioned in the Ragnar Blackmane series, same with the Fenrisian tribes having canine DNA.
The only theoretical part is the linking of the pair to explain how the original Terran Space Wolves were possible.

Daddy E hand picked them specially he would of known what specific gene markers were required for success and even then the success rate was lower than other legions, then they get to Fenris and even men in their 50's can sup from the cup and become legionaries.

If the fact full grown men can become sky warriors doesn't point to the link between the canis helix and fenrisians I don't know what does.

There's a bit of conflicting fluff on that - I've read the fluff you're talking about, there's also fluff that the Big E didn't believe any of Russ' Shield Brothers would survive, 3rd or 4th ed Space Wolves codex I think and more than half of the oldies didn't live, still, more survived than Big E was expecting.

Russ was always bound for Fenris, the Primarchs just got shot off earlier than intended. I think Angron and Lion were the only two who wound up on the wrong rocks.

IIRC the Lemen Russ Primarchs novel suggests that the 13th company (where Russ gathered all the men who became space wolves) where MUCH more prone to the Wulfen curse, even after conversion then normal.

Yes but it was nearly two centuries before the first wulfen incident and then it was still rare.

So, after reading the latest fluff book, there is so far, only one SW Successor chapter, brand new at the end of the indomitus crusade(Guilliman split up all the unassigned primaris, known during the crusade as Greyshields, and sent them off to their respective chapters or the newly created ones):
Quote from the book from one of the SW geneseed primaris as he finds out he won't be going to join the rest of the wolves:

hobojebus wrote:
Primeris space wolves not upgraded from original wolves will end in degeneration it's only a matter of time.

No, this is directly contradicted by Dark Imperium.


The Primaris Space Wolves are still stable at the end of the Indomnitus Crusade.

in other words Cawl belives at this time Primaris space wolves will not de evolve into Wulfen

Is this the seed in the fluff that makes it possible to merge all the unique chapters into one Primaris Codex book?

The Wolves had the Helix before Fenris, did the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst or Black Rage before Baal?

Red Thirst had always been there but became a problem as less fresh blood from Sanguinius was available
Black Rage is a result of their Primarchs death

 kodos wrote:
Red Thirst had always been there but became a problem as less fresh blood from Sanguinius was available
Black Rage is a result of their Primarchs death

What was the Blood Angels' purpose?
The Wolves' were meant to be monsters for a few different reasons - tracking, intimidation, survival.
Why were the Blood Angels made monsters?

The Emperor's purpose in making the Primarchs and their Legions different has never been revealed. Some are obvious and useful specialisations.

Siege warriors: Imperial Fists and Iron warriors
Stealth and infiltration: Raven Guard
Scouting and recon: Whitescars
Shock troops: World Eaters
etc

Some are less obvious. The HH novels imply that the Wolves see themselves as the Emperor's executioners but whether this is an assigned role or one that Russ took for himself is not clear.

Blood Angels seem to have a penchant for aerial combat and fast assault. It is not clear where the Red Thirst comes from or why the Emperor included it. But the dual Angel/Vampire theme has been part of the Blood Angels lore for a long time, long before the current trend of assigning character traits based on tactical roles.

Bummer.
So we end up with another statement that can be taken in multiple ways.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Red Thirst had always been there but became a problem as less fresh blood from Sanguinius was available
Black Rage is a result of their Primarchs death

What was the Blood Angels' purpose?
The Wolves' were meant to be monsters for a few different reasons - tracking, intimidation, survival.
Why were the Blood Angels made monsters?

it's hard to say, as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor's motives there's a lot that makes you go "... huh?" occasionally.

Let's start with a fact. The Emperor perfected the Astartes from the get go, the first Legion, the dark angels, have some of the purest geneseed of the Legions, so the dark angels have their flaws but they aren;t giant genetic flaws ala space wolves, blood angels or 1k sons, so We can, reduce the likelyhood that this was pure error on the emperor's part as he learned the art of genecraft. we can;'t dismiss it mind you.
First off let's take note of the Thousand Sons, their flesh change is quite possiably a curse from Tzeetch, to draw the legion into his service, we can't dismiss the red thirst as being something similer, perhaps a curse of Khorne, whose always taken an intreast in the Angels. (it'd make Angron even more tragic if even the blood god considered him basicly a weak consolation prize when the Primarch he REALLY wanted resisted chaos)

Barring that another possiability is the Space Wolves and Blood Angels where experiments, perhaps The Emperor was somewhat ambitious and wanted to test some new ideas, ideas that he may use in the future, these ideas then would involve Primarchs whom imbued their followers with unique abilities, the catch being a SLIGHTLY differant process of space marine creation. this had advantages and disadvantages.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:
The Emperor's purpose in making the Primarchs and their Legions different has never been revealed. Some are obvious and useful specialisations.

Siege warriors: Imperial Fists and Iron warriors
Stealth and infiltration: Raven Guard
Scouting and recon: Whitescars
Shock troops: World Eaters
etc

Some are less obvious. The HH novels imply that the Wolves see themselves as the Emperor's executioners but whether this is an assigned role or one that Russ took for himself is not clear.

Blood Angels seem to have a penchant for aerial combat and fast assault. It is not clear where the Red Thirst comes from or why the Emperor included it. But the dual Angel/Vampire theme has been part of the Blood Angels lore for a long time, long before the current trend of assigning character traits based on tactical roles.

just because a legion falls into a role doesn't mean it's what they where initally envisioned as, the world eaters where originally quite differant in character, Angron was utterly broken, so his legion was thus broken.

According to the end of the leman Russ book after he made it to Terra too late to save bigdaddyE he was depressed and had a dream/psychic vision where he walked with his father lamenting his failure to protect him and the emperor says he wasn't created to protect him he was made to protect what he built.

Then the lion stabbed him with his sword because he's a dick.

The other thing to remember is that the Primarchs were not exactly finished articles. The old fluff stated that they were scattered before their development was finished. It is possible that the Big E would have ironed out their kinks had Chaos not intervened.

Rather than trying to duplicate the long and arduous work through which he had created the Primarchs, the Emperor instead used the raw material developed during the Primarch project to create the Space Marines. The Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, the Legiones Astartes, each utilising residual genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs.

The Astartes were thus a stop-gap measure to allow the Emperor to press ahead with the Great Crusade in spite of losing the Primarchs. They are a stop-gap measure created using the left-overs of an uncompleted project.

Looked at from this point of view, their idiosyncrasies becomes more understandable. They do not represent the pinnacle of the Emperor's genecraft (look at the Custodes for that). They represent a mass-produced solution to the problem of the Great Crusade. I don't think they were intended to last more than a few centuries, not the 10,000 they have been subjected to.

No wonder they were more than ready for Cawl's mid-life upgrade.

So Cawl was working under assumptions.
The assumption that the Canis Helix and Red Thirst were flaws - he might be right but he might not, the Wolf Spear could well be deaf and ansomiac in comparison to a regular Space Mutt.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So Cawl was working under assumptions.
The assumption that the Canis Helix and Red Thirst were flaws - he might be right but he might not, the Wolf Spear could well be deaf and ansomiac in comparison to a regular Space Mutt.

possiable but unlikely. as Cawl did note he didn't wanna correct the flaws too much because those ideocentricites DO seem to be tied to the chapters specific advantages.