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BrianDavion wrote:
Most armies have access to snipers. use them, space Marines have scout snipers, who should be able to put a comissar down reasonably fast.

.

People keep saying stuff like this, but sorry. It's really easy to keep commissars out of LOS and still within 6" of multiple units, especially if they're daisy-chained back to the commissar.

Option 1) corner of a standard GW ruin.
Option 2) park a tank. Park a second tank next to the first, so that its front track is halfway along the first's hull. Tada, a little L shaped pocket for the commissar to have a smoke in, and still be within 6" of units. No LoS from most of the board, and anyone running conscripts has enough meat to block drop shenanigans. It in no way interferes with the commissars ability.

Snipers are only an option if the commissar is inexplicably standing out in the open, which no one cheesing the conscript walls of meat is going to do.

Only answers to the conscript question is bring down the unit size (in line with other morale immune units, because currently, it's way over) or make the green trash unit unmotivated by something as meaningless as 2% casualties. And too undisciplined for orders.

It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

I find it pretty refreshing honestly. After having edition after edition of vehicle & monstrous creature spam with minimum troop choices on the table, its about time infantry shined. Hopefully they become even more important than they are now in the future. In the 40k setting, something like an imperial knight, wraithknight etc are extremely rare. Like really, really, really rare. Seeing them on the table top every other game is just boring. It isn't representative of the setting whatsoever. 99.9% of the fighting is done on the ground via small arms & boot to face. We need more infantry not less.

Maybe I missed it in other "oh god the infantry spam" threads, but I'm surprised that Leviathan Dreds with Grav Bombards haven't been brought up as they absolutely pick up blobs of infantry. Mind you this is only a solution for marines/chaos.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
I find it pretty refreshing honestly. After having edition after edition of vehicle & monstrous creature spam with minimum troop choices on the table, its about time infantry shined. Hopefully they become even more important than they are now in the future. In the 40k setting, something like an imperial knight, wraithknight etc are extremely rare. Like really, really, really rare. Seeing them on the table top every other game is just boring. It isn't representative of the setting whatsoever. 99.9% of the fighting is done on the ground via small arms & boot to face. We need more infantry not less.

I feel the same way. One of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition was that they made infantry increasingly irrelevant compared to big models like Knights.

It was always funny seeing games played in the stores. The box art around the shop showing titanic armies throwing waves of soldiers at each other, then you look at the gaming tables and it's 3 riptides vs a few knights.

Bring on the new era I say.

Something caught me about the 2.5 hour game time and a 2,000 point list; if you look at the recommended point values/game time (pg 214) a game intended to last ~2.5 hours is 1,000 points...

That sounds like the "problem" of infantry blobs was already noted and accepted. Maybe building at 2,000 for the typical game is a relic of previous editions?

 BuFFo wrote:
Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.

Only scoring D6 hits no matter the size of the blob somewhat blunts their effectiveness. It makes them more reliable against small units but less so against really big ones.

 Diet_Evil wrote:
Maybe I missed it in other "oh god the infantry spam" threads, but I'm surprised that Leviathan Dreds with Grav Bombards haven't been brought up as they absolutely pick up blobs of infantry. Mind you this is only a solution for marines/chaos.

Grav Bombards are the only weapon I have seen so far whose firepower scales directly in proportion to the size of the target. A few more weapons using this mechanic would certainly mitigate heavily against blobs.

Razorback spam will deal fairly efficiently with most blob armies. In 2000 points you can comfortably afford 6 RBs with twin assault cannons as well as the squads to go inside them and a Marine Captain to reroll 1s to hit. That is 72 S6 shots with -1 that will mulch hordes and pretty much everything else too. Even units with a 3+ save will take lots of casualties. Land Raiders seem to be the only units that could withstand that kind of firepower (so take infantry with some anti-tank weapons).

Razorback spam may not be fun to face but is both fluffy and efficient. Also plenty of players who previously ran Gladius detachments will have the models (possibly without the appropriate turrets) so I expect to see this becoming one of the early "power lists" in 8th edition.

Sure I could field a poop load of Brimstone Horrors. Shame my not inconsiderable wallet means that's just not a financially viable thing to do. I mean, it costs me £20 for 10.

If I wanted the mooted 200 Brimstone, I'm looking at £400. £400. Suffice to say, one suspects Brimstone Spam isn't going to be an issue, especially as they struggle to fight their way out of a paper bag.

Battleshock.

That's how you deal with big old blobs.

Look at the units available to you, and look for ways to tinker with Ld checks, whether that's dropping the enemy Ld, or adding to their roll.

See if you've got any snipers available to help force enemy HQs to keep their heads down, to mitigate or remove any Ld buffs (such as a Commissar just executing the one dude).

But at the end of the day, we're still learning this new edition. I'm going on theory due to time constraints eliminating gaming opportunities thus far - but even those who've played haven't really played a great many games. Got to adapt!

 BuFFo wrote:
Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.

Use them.

Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.

Use them.

Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?

depends, their hits against spread out units are about the same, and their effective range has improved (only need 1 model in range to hit multiples), especially now that you can kill things beyond the max range of your gun. You can also run and shoot them super effectively now so that is another range buff.

 vipoid wrote:
I feel the same way. One of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition was that they made infantry increasingly irrelevant compared to big models like Knights.

Commissar - Now, there's the Traitor Knight. We need to take it down, so how can we go about making that happen as a team?

Guardsman Perkins - Well, Sir. We could request back up from the Melta Specialists?

Commissar - BLAM. No. Anyone else?

Guardsman Bob - Sir, we could jam Guardsman Dave in the knee joint, see if we can't get it to limp around a bit, Sir?

Guardsman Dave - Wot?

Commissar - Capital! You're on the path to Sargent, Guardsman!

Guardsman Bob - Sir, Thank you very much Sir!

Guardsman Dave - No. Seriously.....wot?

Martel732 wrote:
It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Commissar - Now, there's the Traitor Knight. We need to take it down, so how can we go about making that happen as a team?

Guardsman Perkins - Well, Sir. We could request back up from the Melta Specialists?

Commissar - BLAM. No. Anyone else?

Guardsman Bob - Sir, we could jam Guardsman Dave in the knee joint, see if we can't get it to limp around a bit, Sir?

Guardsman Dave - Wot?

Commissar - Capital! You're on the path to Sargent, Guardsman!

Guardsman Bob - Sir, Thank you very much Sir!

Guardsman Dave - No. Seriously.....wot?

Why not use Guardsman Perkins?

Breng77 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.

Use them.

Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?

depends, their hits against spread out units are about the same, and their effective range has improved (only need 1 model in range to hit multiples), especially now that you can kill things beyond the max range of your gun. You can also run and shoot them super effectively now so that is another range buff.

On average a flamer will kill one and a half conscripts or ork boys now (and say 2 gaunts).
I feel if you were only getting that many kills from a flamer against such targets in 7th you were either so far away you were just clipping the unit or doing something wrong.

Against more elite units taken in smaller numbers (like say Marines) they are roughly the same but since that was not what you used them for this doesn't help much.

I for one welcome our new Horde Overlords and hope the small, elite deathstars of previous editions go to hell. The weapons might need tuning, but a return to previous editions where anti-horde weapons were to effective that you couldn't run hordes is the last thing I want.

In the end, I doubt many here including me have played a significant number of games and thus might not know what works outside of very specific simulated situations. My Conscript blob deals approximately a third of a wound (based on 20 attacks) on a Rhino if it charges them in a narrow passage, so the Rhino could very well tie my twice as expensive infantry unit the entire game without dying. GW pls nerf Rhinos.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.

I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.

For blobs I can see movement trays coming on at some point in the not too distant future, I mean without blasts why not bunch up? even the three model ones warlord do for their samurai game.

in 5th ran a pure foot IG list, some 150 models, never had a game time out, trick is having a range ruler that takes the base size into account - so touch the base, model moves to touch the other end, done

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.

I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.

Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.

I don't have any land speeder assault cannons. Furthermore, I'm going to find out how useful ignoring LoS actually is before I pass judgment.

Most horde infantry have terrible saves. Plus, the whirlwind always can target the unit with no cover.

My whirlwinds have a very low chance of being "turned off" by enemy infantry as well. We'll see.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.

I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.

Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.

Thats how most anti infantry mortars are.

I like the Twin heavy flamer razor more for BA anyway. That's some nasty overwatch.

Martel732 wrote:
I like the Twin heavy flamer razor more for BA anyway. That's some nasty overwatch.

I'll be curious to see how that goes. It's not a terrible idea.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I like the Twin heavy flamer razor more for BA anyway. That's some nasty overwatch.

I'll be curious to see how that goes. It's not a terrible idea.

Heavy flamers seem ideal on any vehicle you want to move. Unless it has some rule like potms of course. I'm experimenting with triple flamer demolishers and punishers.

 Aenarian wrote:
I for one welcome our new Horde Overlords and hope the small, elite deathstars of previous editions go to hell. The weapons might need tuning, but a return to previous editions where anti-horde weapons were to effective that you couldn't run hordes is the last thing I want.

In the end, I doubt many here including me have played a significant number of games and thus might not know what works outside of very specific simulated situations. My Conscript blob deals approximately a third of a wound (based on 20 attacks) on a Rhino if it charges them in a narrow passage, so the Rhino could very well tie my twice as expensive infantry unit the entire game without dying. GW pls nerf Rhinos.

Did your Company Commander run off or something? This situation is exactly what "Get Back In The Fight" is designed to prevent.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.

I need to re-read the IG index but, IIRC, the only way to make them "immune" to morale is with a commisar.

If that's the case, don't leave your snipers at home. Especially if you know anyone who likes to abuse stuff like this. Kill the commisar, shoot the conscripts, and watch their player wince as they break and run. The problem with large units is that while they can take a lot of wounds, they don't like to stick around afterwards.

Take Orks for example. Their morale is equal to their squad size (IIRC they're not actually immune to morale. They just have a lot of it when they're in a huge mob). This means that a big block of boyz is immune to morale, right?

Kill 15 of them in one turn. Then they lose 1d6 boyz in the morale phase. They're anything but immune. You just have to have enough firepower to actually break them.

Nids? We're back to 4th edition where you have to break synapse. It means that if you want to effectively fight nids, you're going to have to know which of the big monsters actually provides synapse and figure out a way to effectively prioritize and kill them before the gaunt packs kill you. If you can do that, their utter lack of any kind of leadership score means that making them break and run away is relatively trivial if you have any firepower left on the table.

Yeah. People is mixing "Inmune to morale" with "They interact with morale in different ways that make a more tactical and depth game"

ATSKNF of 7th was inmunity to morale with 0 drawbacks or interactions to your opponent.

(And I'm not saying this to defend Conscripts+Commisar. But Morale in Orks and Nids is totally fine. They don't ignore it)

 carldooley wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Commissar - Now, there's the Traitor Knight. We need to take it down, so how can we go about making that happen as a team?

Guardsman Perkins - Well, Sir. We could request back up from the Melta Specialists?

Commissar - BLAM. No. Anyone else?

Guardsman Bob - Sir, we could jam Guardsman Dave in the knee joint, see if we can't get it to limp around a bit, Sir?

Guardsman Dave - Wot?

Commissar - Capital! You're on the path to Sargent, Guardsman!

Guardsman Bob - Sir, Thank you very much Sir!

Guardsman Dave - No. Seriously.....wot?

Why not use Guardsman Perkins?

The Grey Knights have borrowed him, mumbled something about needing some paint


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.

Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.

I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.

Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.

Thats how most anti infantry mortars are.

it's how most anti infantry weapons are. you don't really need AP-3 for killing hordes.

Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...

and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars

 Talamare wrote:
Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...

and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars

Snipers are heavy weapons with only a 36" range. You can easily get a huge chunk of your blob on an objective without worrying about the commissar being in range. Coherency!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.

I need to re-read the IG index but, IIRC, the only way to make them "immune" to morale is with a commisar.

If that's the case, don't leave your snipers at home. Especially if you know anyone who likes to abuse stuff like this. Kill the commisar, shoot the conscripts, and watch their player wince as they break and run. The problem with large units is that while they can take a lot of wounds, they don't like to stick around afterwards.

Take Orks for example. Their morale is equal to their squad size (IIRC they're not actually immune to morale. They just have a lot of it when they're in a huge mob). This means that a big block of boyz is immune to morale, right?

Kill 15 of them in one turn. Then they lose 1d6 boyz in the morale phase. They're anything but immune. You just have to have enough firepower to actually break them.

Nids? We're back to 4th edition where you have to break synapse. It means that if you want to effectively fight nids, you're going to have to know which of the big monsters actually provides synapse and figure out a way to effectively prioritize and kill them before the gaunt packs kill you. If you can do that, their utter lack of any kind of leadership score means that making them break and run away is relatively trivial if you have any firepower left on the table.

Snipers are not a viable answer to commissars, they're just the only answer. And not every faction has access to snipers or scouts. Hell, not even every Space Marine faction has access to snipers.

And mob rule means that if they're within 6" of another giant squad, they're immune to morale, too. But at least squads of Boyz cap out considerably lower, and don't have rapid fire guns.