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Prestor Jon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

Completely agree. This season has gotten pretty bad in terms of being predictable and formulaic. Every episode is just another pendulum swing, it's like a tennis volley between the "good" side and the "bad" side. Things are looking good for Dany's faction, she's building up a strong alliance to take out Cersei and the Lannisters' power and then the next episode Cersei outsmarts Dany, breaks up the alliance and regains the upper hand, then the next episode Dany strikes back with dragon power, wipes out a good chunk of the Lannister's army and puts Cersei back on the defensive. I'm sure this week's episode will end on a negative for Dany's team because last episode ended on a high note for them.

At least in the beginning of the series, even if you had read the books you got to watch events play out over multiple episodes instead of this simplistic formula. Everything just goes back and forth except the Night King keeps on advancing in a nigh unstoppable manner but he's moving incredibly slowly, especially compared to how now the main characters zip around Westeros every episode.

Actually this whole series has been loose loose for Dany and co - it had to be otherwise epsiode one would have been - arrive in Westors - destroy Lanisters, episode two head North - fight the undead.

Her only "victory" so far has been at the cost of injury to one of her "children" and we don't know how serious that is.

I think its actually quite well done - history and wars often go like this with fortunes changing dramatically without warnig - or if warnings are ignored.

Remeber alot of this is based on the Wars of the Roses - history is often much wierder that fiction in how things and why things happen.

It is the opposite to the books where nothing is happening and GRm is defiantly trying spin it out as long as possible probably because he is enjoying it and there is no one who can make him get on with it - the show runners don;t have that luxury - they need the plot to press on, they need it to be coherent and interestng and every new character is a wage that needs to be justified. You cant have endless travelougues with minor characters if it means highly paid actors are just sitting about,

The show did indulge GRm quite alot to be honest

 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....

The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.

I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....

The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.

If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.

gorgon wrote:Sure, Martin plays with levels of meaning throughout the books. Heck, people have been kicking around the meaning of the title of the series for years now. And there are plenty of valid theories, supported by the fact that Martin repeats ice and fire themes many times and in many ways. And then you have all the stories and text snippets that may or may not be full of meaning.

Spoiler:

There's good reason to think a simple story involving an inn sign is a strong hint that Aegon/Young Griff is a Blackfyre pretender.

But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

*Two years ago* Martin wrote this blog post explaining that the book and show storylines are diverging, and that the gap will continue to widen. But some of you think it all ends more or less the same? I don't see how, especially since Martin hasn't written HIS ending yet.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

I think the show will end similar (he already told them roughly how it's supposed to end before the first season started) but the way there will be simpler, less detailed, and adjusted to whatever happens in the TV series while the books are not progressing (for us readers). As the show moved forward they had to cut content all the time (but they also included nice additional material to explore things that the reader got by being able to read about a character's thoughts) because GRRM included so many characters who are somehow involved (even if only on the periphery) while they had to streamline it to a degree just to keep in manageable for a TV audience.

If I remember correctly the "diverging storyline" blogpost came around the time it became clear that the TV writers won't have books to orient themselves on anymore. He's probably told them roughly what his plans are so they can work with that but it won't have the detailed quotes/scenes/plans of the early adaption and they are cutting things apart as needed for a functioning TV series (that can't reference existing books anymore). It will probably be more conventional than the books but should hopefully still end as a good show. I don't care much one way or another as long as the show it at least interesting to watch. If they diverge too much then I get two different experiences and I don't see this as a bad option (unlike some people who want the adaption to be as pure and direct as possible). HBO is apparently exploring the possibility of four spinoffs. Even if those don't end up being great they should still manage to be good and above average and that could mean a nice decade of GOT shows.

BTW, got a link/explanation about the stuff in the spoiler? It reminds me of some theory I think I read about but I can't remember it.

 LunarSol wrote:
I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.

I'd imagine it's a very hard one to choose a ending for.
There's no good side. Only shades of grey, and blood on everyone's hands.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....

The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.

If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.

idk, it doesn't seem that hard to build. If they could afford to send one to escort the food convoy, they probably have a few more.
I'm not saying they would have hundreds of them. I would think that all they need is 20 to give them a hard time. If just one can ground the largest dragon just by hitting a non vital spot, 20 would have a greater chance of hitting a vital, and even then it just needs one hit to take away its air superiority. At which point you can throw big rocks at it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....

The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.

If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.

idk, it doesn't seem that hard to build. If they could afford to send one to escort the food convoy, they probably have a few more.
I'm not saying they would have hundreds of them. I would think that all they need is 20 to give them a hard time. If just one can ground the largest dragon just by hitting a non vital spot, 20 would have a greater chance of hitting a vital, and even then it just needs one hit to take away its air superiority. At which point you can throw big rocks at it.

True. You can deny dragon air strikes from flaming half your castle. But there also well Dragons.

Ideal for protecting key targets but those dragons could easily reach and attacker her lesser protected sites and convoys. Raid the weaker vessel keeps and make her running of a kingdom and gathering food for winter very hard.

Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.

I think they did have them at blackwater but I think the anti dragon design is more heavy duty.

Its a anti tank gun of a crossbow with double arms.

Maybe qyburn is playing polical games and only just revealing his weapon. Or no one quite believed her dragons where real?

 jhe90 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.

I think they did have them at blackwater but I think the anti dragon design is more heavy duty.

Its a anti tank gun of a crossbow with double arms.

Maybe qyburn is playing polical games and only just revealing his weapon. Or no one quite believed her dragons where real?

Also its on a pivoting mount so it can be fired in many directions - which I would think is not a simple bit of engineering in the quasi medieval period but I don't know. Technology seems to have remained the same for hundreds (thousands?) of years - as is the case with many fantasy worlds so ballisti were also likely around in the time of the first Targyrian invasion.

However hitting a moving dragon - which is also trying to breathe fire on you is not going to be an easy task.

We know that Qyburn only showed it to Cersei post Dany's arrival so if she had struck immediately there would have been no resistance apart from soldiers to turn to ash. However many rulers have made similar mistakes in history = plus the show needed Dany to not win immediately so the prevarication and anti -dragon artillery is purely there to spin out the plot.

Also Cersei and co were quite busy with their own problems (killing half the nobles the kingdom and destroying the Church's power) and likely last they heard Dany's city was a hive of rebellion and under siege with her Dragons nowhere to be seen.

 LunarSol wrote:
I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.

Personally, I suspect that GRRM has the last book written, but is saving it to release posthumously. Things will end so horribly that he is a little worried about angry fans going medieval l on him, and recreating a choice death scene or two from the books.

This is setting things up nicely.

 d-usa wrote:
This is setting things up nicely.

#squadgoals


good episode.

Gendry!

And he has a warhammer!

Love the ultimate squad of badassery.

Also, Jon Snow isn't a bastard! That makes him the true heir to the iron throne, no? That's gonna get awkward.

From the book, and also implied in the show I think:



I liked the episode.

Danny is right on the edge of madness, at least in the way she is perceived. It will be interesting to see how they handle that. And with Cersei going more cray cray every episode it sets up a nice dilemma for people there.

John "the dragon" Snow is being setup pretty nicely as a dragon rider I think. How many people have touched the dragons? Maybe they can sniff out his herritage.

I hope Arya is playing Littlefinger, his smirk needs to go.

Looking forward to watching the Westeros Edition of Suicide Squat next week. I know it will be sad to see Hodor again though. What's the over/under of one of the dragons bailing them out?

Speaking of which: I feel that the whole "Song of Ice and Fire" really isn't about John and Danny anymore, especially with the whole hamfisted "I brought ice and fire together" line a couple episodes ago. Throwing that in our faces pretty much guarantees that it's not the case. It would fit the story much better if it's always been about the children of the Forrest and the Others, and mythical fire and ice creatures, and a truce between them that is now failing. And the humans are just inconsequential pawns in all of that who don't really matter.

All escalating nicely I feel.

Perhaps when I get the chance to binge the whole season it'll feel like they wasted a bit of time. But, given we've two episodes left before the final season, I'm certainly not feeling that way right now.

Also.....Simon Quinlank, hit in the side of the head with a hammer.....

I liked the warhammer. For some reason I forgot and always thought that guy was Briene's squire.

Isn't the next episode the last for the season? I thought it was 6 this year and 7 next year?

I don't think Jamie is gonna be the one to kill Cersi now. Someone else will have to do it for him, maybe Bronn will. Also had a theory, if the white walkers make it to king's landing, since the Mountain is kinda undead too maybe they would be able to control him and he'll turn around and crush her head?

Two more to go.

And I'll be off LARPing when it airs.

Me, in a tent, in full armour, drunk on Mead, after timeout, with my iPad, watching Game of Thrones?



Are they mad?

 Necros wrote:
I liked the warhammer. For some reason I forgot and always thought that guy was Briene's squire.

Isn't the next episode the last for the season? I thought it was 6 this year and 7 next year?

I don't think Jamie is gonna be the one to kill Cersi now. Someone else will have to do it for him, maybe Bronn will. Also had a theory, if the white walkers make it to king's landing, since the Mountain is kinda undead too maybe they would be able to control him and he'll turn around and crush her head?

Nah, after the whole "Never betray me again" thing, something snapped in him. Jaime is going to be the one who kills her.

Cersi will ally with Jon and Dany to stop the White Walkers but ultimately jeopardize everything when she sees the opportunity to take out her rivals. Jamie will almost certainly have to kill her to keep her from getting everyone killed by the Night King.

I thought this episode started on a weak point, with Jaime and Bronn just swimming up and away from the world's steepest river bank. That whole 'will Jaime drown thing' was needless, it didn't work as a cliffhanger because we all knew that he wasn't going to die there, and so that only left a question of what clever plot element was used for his escape. None. There was no clever plot element. He just got dragged down river by Bronn.

Other than that the episode was really solid. Lots of good lines. Lord Tarly got what was overdue. Davos in fine form doing what he does best. It got Gendry back in the story, and Jon getting his gang of b-listers together at the end was awesome. It won't last long and I reckon they'll bump off at least a couple of them, shame it'll probably be Beric and Tormund, because they're two of my favourites.

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though

Mostly though I really like how the episode quickly moved to accepting Cersei can't win a conventional war. It would have been tempting to leave some suspense there, show batteries of scorpions or the Gold Company arriving with some other anti-dragon weapon of their own, or something like that. Instead they show Jaime quickly assessing the situation, which shows he's not an idiot and he understands overwhelming power, but mostly it focuses the story and moves it towards its next drama point. It's like the opposite of the 'will Jaime drown' faux cliffhanger.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Also.....Simon Quinlank, hit in the side of the head with a hammer.....

This weeks hobby is called 'getting smashed in the skull by a royal bastard'

Didn't even have time to drink his weak lemon drink

Bronn only had to swim down how many feet, stop jaime's descent and then swim however far to shore, with both of them in battle armor. That's a layup for Bronn the almighty.

Edit: I'm surprised he didn't do it while singing. Underwater.

You gotta think it's going to be an awkward conversation when Jon introduces Sam to his new girlfriend, who roasted his family alive. Sam was estranged from his dad, but still...

 sebster wrote:

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though

Unless the kid brings it with him and someone stumbles upon it, like Davos did when the call went out for reinforcements needed at the wall.

 gorgon wrote:
Bronn only had to swim down how many feet, stop jaime's descent and then swim however far to shore, with both of them in battle armor. That's a layup for Bronn the almighty.

Edit: I'm surprised he didn't do it while singing. Underwater.

You gotta think it's going to be an awkward conversation when Jon introduces Sam to his new girlfriend, who roasted his family alive. Sam was estranged from his dad, but still...

There's estranged and then there's "I gave you the option to go die in the snow or I'd shoot you myself and you failed to do either". I think Sam can let it go.

Ultimately Jamie drowning was mostly just artistic license to nod back to the shot of Bran's fall. I don't think we were really supposed to take it seriously as a cliffhanger as much as a way of letting the audience know that Jamie lost that one.

 nels1031 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though

Unless the kid brings it with him and someone stumbles upon it, like Davos did when the call went out for reinforcements needed at the wall.

Sister might have also written a letter to brother about getting married and being pregnant, a letter that may be in Winterfell, with only one copy existing.

Rowing man is back!

And he grew alot doing it.
Plus a rather effective hammer.

So Jorah, the Explorer. John snow.
Who will win the Queens heart!

 jhe90 wrote:
Rowing man is back!

And he grew alot doing it.
Plus a rather effective hammer.

So Jorah, the Explorer. John snow.
Who will win the Queens heart!

House Gendry, Rowing Strong.

So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.