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 Tamereth wrote:
A friend just raised a very valid question. If Cersei intends to tell everyone she is pregnant with Jamie's child what does that mean for Euron. Given that he's the main reason the Lannisters are still around at this point, how is his loyalty going to hold up if marrying Cersei is off the table?

He doesn't give a feth about things like babies, friendship, family, moral ?!

 sebster wrote:
If the prophecy Cersei received is all coming true (queen for a while, she'd have 3 kids & they would all die etc), how does the reconcile with her new pregnancy? Will she die before giving birth?

My guess is it will go one of two ways:

She loses the baby, has a psychotic break, and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her.

She doesn't lose the baby and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her while she's pregnant.

This is a show that doesn't shy away from putting babies to the sword, so I suppose either is equally possible. Those are my guesses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warwarwar wrote:
He doesn't give a feth about things like babies, friendship, family, moral ?!

No, I am sure Euron wouldn't be put off by it at all. He'd rationalize that if needed, babies and kids die all the time in all sorts of accidents.

 d-usa wrote:
I was trying to figure out if the baby could be the brother that kills her, but I'm no good at Incest Venn Diagrams.

Well if Jamie's the father and she dies during childbirth, you could just about bend that around to her brother killing her. Bonus points if there's some extra poetry and the kid turns out to be a dwarf like Tyrion, but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.

but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.

You do make a good point, why didn't just Tywin just cut Tirion's throat at birth rather than suffering a freak to bear the Lannister name? His wife died during childbirth so she couldn't have been the one to protect him.

I think you overestimate Jamie. He is certainly a hard hearted man, but I think he really wants to be a proper father rather than hiding in the shadows and I can't see him euthanising his baby even if it was a dwarf.
Personally I doubt the baby is even real and that Cersei is just using the idea to ensure Jamie's loyalty.

So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.

For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?

I dunno, she's proven to be pragmatic when necessary, I think if she's convinced that the threat of the Dead is real that she will be prepared to tackle it.

The caveats to that are 1) her paranoia may make her impossible to convince 2) she will probably look to hang everyone else out to dry once she feels the threat from the Dead has been eliminated/mitigated sufficiently.

Plus, everyone seems to be taking it at face value that she actually is pregnant, manipulating a man by telling him you're carrying his baby is a play from the very first edition of the woman playbook!

 gorgon wrote:
So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.

For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?

They actually don't need Cersei to send men - just pledeg not to attack Dany's supply lines or cause issues for them in the backfield - in fact her biggest offer is that she has the Iron Bank on her side and could therefore bankroll the campaign against the dead. Some one has to pay for the food, lodging, equipment, fodder etc etc.

A token force under Jamie would likely be sufficient.

She stated pretty plainly that she sees this alliance as an opportunity to kill her rivals when they let their guard down. I'm sure she'll commit more than a token force; it will just be one whose primary objective isn't really taking on the army of the dead.

 Kroem wrote:

but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.

You do make a good point, why didn't just Tywin just cut Tirion's throat at birth rather than suffering a freak to bear the Lannister name? His wife died during childbirth so she couldn't have been the one to protect him.

I think you overestimate Jamie. He is certainly a hard hearted man, but I think he really wants to be a proper father rather than hiding in the shadows and I can't see him euthanising his baby even if it was a dwarf.
Personally I doubt the baby is even real and that Cersei is just using the idea to ensure Jamie's loyalty.

Err, when I said "deals with it" I meant emotionally and with maturity, not with infanticide, lol

They seem to be trying to put Jaime on a redemption arc, and treating his son as simply his son in the exact opposite way to how his father and sister reacted to Tyrion would be one way to reinforce that arc.

I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is it will go one of two ways:

She loses the baby, has a psychotic break, and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her.

She doesn't lose the baby and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her while she's pregnant.

This is a show that doesn't shy away from putting babies to the sword, so I suppose either is equally possible. Those are my guesses.

My previous post I was about to ask if the show was full on enough to kill a pregnant woman, then halfway through typing I remembered that time when a pregnant woman was murdered.

But yeah, I think your two guesses are probably the two most likely ways its gonna play out.

But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.

 gorgon wrote:
So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.

For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?

They don't need Cersei's military. They just need her to agree to stay put and not do anything while Jon and Daenerys fight the army of the dead.

Cersei will agree to this. In the position she's any offer of time is invaluable.

Nor do Jon and Daenerys need to believe Cersei will honour any deal. They just need to know that she will understand for her own sake that she shouldn't push the limits of the ceasefire too far or risk Daenerys turning her attentions back on Cersei. So she'll look to rebuild her army, hire mercenaries and so forth. But she won't dare threaten Dragonstone or any lines of supply to the army fighting up North.

That's my take anyway.

The question I have is how much good the Dothraki will be in the snow. Last season it was mentioned in passing that the Lannister army was a summer army and wouldn't venture North, so what of the Dothraki? What are their horses going to eat up there?

 MDSW wrote:
But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.

If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."

 d-usa wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.

If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."

Gold made it.

The important food to feed the capital and its armies over the winter was burned.

 d-usa wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.

If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."

I missed that reference... Darn it, I wanted Cersei to have to find another bargaining chip - getting a ton of gold is just too easy.

 sebster wrote:
I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.

That would be terrific.

 Ouze wrote:

 sebster wrote:
I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.

That would be terrific.

Pretty depressing end I would think - doomed to die away from the woman he loves

But also as a respected man and able to bring honor to your house.

 d-usa wrote:
But also as a respected man and able to bring honor to your house.

If Dany wins, he would be likely be raised up high in the ranks of nobility. If she looses he will likely be dead.

Now this may change but uptill now Taking the Black is a punishment or a last resort - not a reward. It is where you send the dregs of your House - not the best.

I could see Jamie ending up there if House Lanister falls but like Jorah I can't see him deserting his beloved, especailly not if the child is real.

Taking the black is the last resort. For life.

Your crimes may be forgotten but your also contracted for life to serve in the watch.
It's a home for the deserters, criminals, those whose house has fallen or the dishonoured.

For its important duty. John joined because he was a basted, and also wanted to serve alongside his uncle.

Its not like the kings guard, or such. A honoured brotherhood.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Err, when I said "deals with it" I meant emotionally and with maturity, not with infanticide, lol

They seem to be trying to put Jaime on a redemption arc, and treating his son as simply his son in the exact opposite way to how his father and sister reacted to Tyrion would be one way to reinforce that arc.

Ah I see... well now I understand what happened to Thomas the Becket a bit better haha!

That would be a little neat for GoT, I reakon he should catch dysentery during the siege of Kings Landing and die with his hopes and dreams unfulfilled :-P

That's how the Nights Watch *was*.

Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out

 Compel wrote:
That's how the Nights Watch *was*.

Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out

Hadrians wall was as much to control trade as to keep an eye on hostiles.

If the "new" Nights Watch is there to poilce a neutral zone then its not the Nights Watch is something new and very different.

Even so why would that be a great thing for Jorah - serving his Queen is all he wants - exiled to a freezing outpost is not exactly a reward.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Compel wrote:
That's how the Nights Watch *was*.

Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out

Hadrians wall was as much to control trade as to keep an eye on hostiles.

If the "new" Nights Watch is there to poilce a neutral zone then its not the Nights Watch is something new and very different.

Even so why would that be a great thing for Jorah - serving his Queen is all he wants - exiled to a freezing outpost is not exactly a reward.

Yeah. Ser friend zone would not be well rewarded.
Now the man's got to compete with the king of the North...

But if it's mission did change then maybe it's membership would. Less dumping ground more professional military force.

Once the threat from the north is known by all, the Nights Watch will be an honored group once again, and likely higher placed than the Kings Guard.

 d-usa wrote:
Once the threat from the north is known by all, the Nights Watch will be an honored group once again, and likely higher placed than the Kings Guard.

Or not, they may not even be remembered depending on what happens.

The Nights Watch is pretty much gone anyway - how many are left - 30?- the various defenders of the North might be remembered depending on what happens, who wins and who writes the histories.

Once the dead march south of the wall, and are (maybe) defeated in Westeros, I doubt that they will dig through brothels and prisons to reinforce the Nights Watch. Survivors of the battle, and losers of the war for the throne who still belong to great houses, will become the new men to take the black. Sure, generations down the line they will be back to protecting against scary monsters invented for the children. But he would be in great company of honorable men for now.

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The hammer did a good enough job on Rhaegar when his daddy was swinging one.

Wonder if Gendry might have a crack at making some NEW Valyrian steel down the road? Jon can set him up with some dragonfire...

Its a little unfortunate that the show hasn't really given us the backstory to appreciate Gendry fighting with a hammer.

What backstory? He's a blacksmith, he hits stuff with a hammer for a living.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Spoiler:

Awesome callback.

Looks like those two images are on the opposite sides of the mountain. The Children were probably north of the Mountain, and Jon & Co. are approaching from the south.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The hammer did a good enough job on Rhaegar when his daddy was swinging one.

Wonder if Gendry might have a crack at making some NEW Valyrian steel down the road? Jon can set him up with some dragonfire...

Its a little unfortunate that the show hasn't really given us the backstory to appreciate Gendry fighting with a hammer.

What backstory? He's a blacksmith, he hits stuff with a hammer for a living.

Can someone refresh my memory on Jamie and Qyburn's relationship, please?

Seemed like Jamie was deliberately giving him the cold shoulder. Was it just because Jamie had more important stuff on his mind, or is he just not a big fan of Qyburn?