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 statu wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The hammer did a good enough job on Rhaegar when his daddy was swinging one.

Wonder if Gendry might have a crack at making some NEW Valyrian steel down the road? Jon can set him up with some dragonfire...

Its a little unfortunate that the show hasn't really given us the backstory to appreciate Gendry fighting with a hammer.

What backstory? He's a blacksmith, he hits stuff with a hammer for a living.

I believe they were referencing the fact that Robert Baratheon used a warhammer during his rebellion, like if the show made more of a thing about Robert using a hammer then Gendey using one would have more weight

 nels1031 wrote:
Can someone refresh my memory on Jamie and Qyburn's relationship, please?

Seemed like Jamie was deliberately giving him the cold shoulder. Was it just because Jamie had more important stuff on his mind, or is he just not a big fan of Qyburn?

Qyburn was the one who saved his arm from being removed. He worked for Roose Bolton back when he was with the Starks. He also hinted to him that he saved Kings Landing from from mad king.

However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.

Between the Wildfyre and The Mountain, he has some reasons to be suspicious of him.

 jhe90 wrote:
Taking the black is the last resort. For life.

Your crimes may be forgotten but your also contracted for life to serve in the watch.
It's a home for the deserters, criminals, those whose house has fallen or the dishonoured.

For its important duty. John joined because he was a basted, and also wanted to serve alongside his uncle.

Its not like the kings guard, or such. A honoured brotherhood.

For thousands of years it was an honored brotherhood; the sad state it is now is not how things used to be.

Once, serving on the Wall was honor and a sign of selfless devotion to duty, with many knights, honorable men, and nobles taking the black voluntarily. The Night's Watch is now often seen only as a way to avoid punishment, suitable less for knights than for the dregs of Westeros. These men are salvaged from dungeons by traveling recruiters known as wandering crows. Disgraced nobles, bastards, and even the unwanted legitimate offspring of nobles are “encouraged” to take the black, making many of today’s Watch a surly and dissatisfied lot.

Those who come voluntarily are free to leave during any time of their training, but no man may leave after he has said vows. Any deserters are sentenced to death. After taking the vows, the men of the Watch cannot own any land, marry, or father children. Men are also encouraged to sever any ties left with their families, if they are lucky enough to have one.

Men of the Night's Watch are garbed all in black, a tradition that earned them the nickname "crows",[11] particularly among the free folk, who often call them "black crows."[12][13] While some use this name derogatorily, many in the Night's Watch have adopted the term for their own use.[14] They are also called the "black brothers",[1] and in song they have been called the "black knights of the Wall."

Its hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Knights Watch still exists at the end of the show. Obviously last time the White Walkers showed up, they were unable to permanently stop them, so they pushed them far north and built the wall to keep them out. When the white walkers manage to penetrate the wall (which they obviously will), it means the wall is no longer a protection against them. Thus, either the forces of man will either get wiped out (unlikely) or they'll figure out a way to defeat the white walkers once and for all (likely).

Thus, what would be the point of having the Kinghts Watch after that? Assuming the wall isn't somehow completely destroyed, what will be the point of rebuilding it and re-manning it? To keep any wildlings out that decide they want to go back to living beyond the wall? That's certainly not the kind of duty that is suddenly going to be desirable.

I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out. The future of the Knights Watch as an organization will come down to how the White Walkers are able to penetrate the wall (do they destroy the whole thing, or just figure out a temporary way through it that can be repaired later) and if the White Walkers don't end up getting destroyed but just pushed back beyond the wall (or it is revealed that they somehow always 'respawn' back beyond the wall eventually).

Or the old truce returns?

 yakface wrote:

Its hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Knights Watch still exists at the end of the show. Obviously last time the White Walkers showed up, they were unable to permanently stop them, so they pushed them far north and built the wall to keep them out. When the white walkers manage to penetrate the wall (which they obviously will), it means the wall is no longer a protection against them. Thus, either the forces of man will either get wiped out (unlikely) or they'll figure out a way to defeat the white walkers once and for all (likely).

Thus, what would be the point of having the Kinghts Watch after that? Assuming the wall isn't somehow completely destroyed, what will be the point of rebuilding it and re-manning it? To keep any wildlings out that decide they want to go back to living beyond the wall? That's certainly not the kind of duty that is suddenly going to be desirable.

I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out. The future of the Knights Watch as an organization will come down to how the White Walkers are able to penetrate the wall (do they destroy the whole thing, or just figure out a temporary way through it that can be repaired later) and if the White Walkers don't end up getting destroyed but just pushed back beyond the wall (or it is revealed that they somehow always 'respawn' back beyond the wall eventually).

Night's Watch - otherwise it'd be a whole different thing. But yeah, otherwise you're right - if they exterminate the thing they are set against they aren't going to remain a whole big thing,

 Mr Morden wrote:
If Dany wins, he would be likely be raised up high in the ranks of nobility. If she looses he will likely be dead.

Now this may change but uptill now Taking the Black is a punishment or a last resort - not a reward. It is where you send the dregs of your House - not the best.

The watch was originally something men volunteered for, they were choosing to commit their lives to the defence of the realm. After learning the white walkers are real, it is likely Jorah or someone similar volunteering to take the black may be a signal of a return to taking the watch seriously and respectfully again.

Also, Jorah has been chasing absolution for past crimes since the beginning of the show. So it works on two levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 statu wrote:
I believe they were referencing the fact that Robert Baratheon used a warhammer during his rebellion, like if the show made more of a thing about Robert using a hammer then Gendey using one would have more weight

Thing is, for someone just watching the tv show Gendry using the hammer doesn't have any greater meaning, and that's cool. But for people who know some more of the lore, it's a nice shout out to his heritage. It doesn't really have to have any more weight than that.

Also, Jorah has been chasing absolution for past crimes since the beginning of the show. So it works on two levels.

Dany forgave him and so that's all he will need I should think. If she wins he should have much better options - unless he wants to mope at the wall. If she loses - likely he will be dead. He is not Theon

Others are right it depends on what happens to the wall and the others.

Take care fellow GoT fans, looks like 7 - 6 got leaked / accidently released on spanish HBO.

Good thing the only spoiler i saw was something i expected 99% anyway:

 d-usa wrote:
Or the old truce returns?

There's that.

The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.

 sebster wrote:
Thing is, for someone just watching the tv show Gendry using the hammer doesn't have any greater meaning, and that's cool. But for people who know some more of the lore, it's a nice shout out to his heritage. It doesn't really have to have any more weight than that.

Thing is, no one was actually trying to start a debate about that.

 gorgon wrote:

The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.

Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.

Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.

And everyone gets phat purpz gear.

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.

Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.

Nice, although I like Jon as a demi-wight or (even better) demi-Other, as foreshadowed by Benjen/Coldhands just as Beric foreshadowed Jon's resurrection. That way he truly becomes ice and fire incarnate.

Oh, and Daenerys dies horribly. The end.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany forgave him and so that's all he will need I should think. If she wins he should have much better options - unless he wants to mope at the wall. If she loses - likely he will be dead. He is not Theon

Daenerys has forgiven him for his betrayal of her, but he did a whole bunch of bad gak that led him to spying on her in the first place that he's never atoned for. I wonder if he can return to Bear Island? Not even to rule, just to visit?

So what does he do instead? Assume lordship of minor property somewhere? He's probably too old to start a new family, so does he just hang around waiting for his queen to call and ask him to open jars and get the internet working?

I think the wall makes a lot of sense. There were a lot of things very deliberately put in place early in this story. Jorah's father serving as Lord Commander on the watch was done for a reason, I think.

Others are right it depends on what happens to the wall and the others.

Yeah, I know, that's why I said it when I first suggested Jorah taking the black after the war
"I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course."

 gorgon wrote:
Thing is, no one was actually trying to start a debate about that.

huh?

Boy did they miss two great dialogue possibilities - one with the scene with Jamie/Tyrion - I mean why have Jamie just cut him short as tyrion was going into a heartfelt and good sounding explanation. They really could have written a brilliant exchange there wrapping up past tensions and angst. More piss poor writing

And then at the end as they are freeing the lord of lights group. So many strong, engaging characters in the one place - it was begging for a real classic of an exchange. Instead we got a few lame quips and Johns view of "we're all in this together". So ho hum.

Granted they're under time pressure now to finish things out but very disappointed in both scenes. They could easily cut down Aryas ninja scene and the boat on the beach scene if they needed extra time.

Definitely a more placid episode than of late, was ok.

Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending

 MDSW wrote:
Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending

Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.

Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.

So what does he do instead? Assume lordship of minor property somewhere? He's probably too old to start a new family, so does he just hang around waiting for his queen to call and ask him to open jars and get the internet working?

Even if Dany wins - there will be work to be done and quite likely battles/wars to be won. He might be more like a fantasy William Marshall, someone to help guide her children - cos she needs to have some or at least adopt some in order to avoid a future civil war. Lots of things to be done

The wall would make sense really only if he can;t take watching Dany have a family with some one else.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending

Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.

Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.

Oh dear, you're for it now you plebian, GoT is literature dontcha know - anyone who doesn't enjoy reading a multi-paragraph description of grease running down a manly beard is obviously just an unsalvagable philistine.

He broke the laws of Westeros and was exiled. And he didn't just break any law, he became a slaver. For that he was stripped of all his titled and claims, and that's the reason he went across the narrow sea.

As much as he has done for Danny, and despite her feelings for him, he is a disgraced lord who was sentenced to death and has no legitimate claims to anything in Westeros. Sure, if Danny wins she can hand him any claim she wants to hand him. But despite everything they have been through, I don't see the Breaker of Chains handing land and titles to a former slaver.

Taking the Black would let him serve her in an important role, and a role that I imagine will have extreme prestige once the 7 Kingdoms know what the Night's Watch protects them from. And it would also allow him to atone for the crimes he committed in Westeros.

He already atoned for his actions against Danny, and he already turned down a pardon once, so restoring his name and honor by his own actions is the only thing left for him to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending

Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.

Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.

Oh dear, you're for it now you plebian, GoT is literature dontcha know - anyone who doesn't enjoy reading a multi-paragraph description of grease running down a manly beard is obviously just an unsalvagable philistine.

It's a true statement for the latest books in the series.

GRRM is suffering from using the exact opposite approach that the show is using to solve one of the biggest problems in the story right now: The 7 Kingdoms are huge, key players are scattered all over the damn place, they all need to be in certain locations at certain times to do certain things.

GRRM is trying to bring them all together as organically as possible. If it takes Person A 4 weeks to travel wherever he is supposed to encounter Person B, and it only takes Person B 2 weeks to get there, then there has to be a reason for Person B to be 2 weeks late getting there so that they can just happen to accidentally meet. All this "there has to be a reason these people happen to be here at this time to do this thing while running into these other people" is the reason why the books are getting more convoluted. He is trying to bring the together without making it feel forced, and as a result it's just become a convoluted mess.

The show approach is just "He needs to talk to them, they need to destroy this fleet, they came from here and will fight here, scene and action". Instead of convoluted stories about traveling and the random ass things that happen during the travel and the intricacies of pie baking techniques, we end up with a cut screen and time jumping all over the place.

There is good reason to bitch about both approaches though, although I don't think I could do much better.

That's why the time skip was really needed. Then the answer is "we picked up the story with both characters about 2 weeks out from their destination".

 welshhoppo wrote:
However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.

I think it's very likely he's going to end up exactly like the last Pyromancer - on the wrong end of Jaime's sword.


Also, it's a good point that the Night's Watch isn't going to exist, most likely, at the end of the series, so that throws a serious kink into the idea that Jorah takes the black. Perhaps Daenarys will legitimize/absolve him, though it's a much better arc for him to have returned to honor via the black.

 LunarSol wrote:
That's why the time skip was really needed. Then the answer is "we picked up the story with both characters about 2 weeks out from their destination".

I think Martin knows that now, down deep. He thought he could pull it off, but then got older, much more distracted, and less interested in all the narrative drudgery that moving all those pieces around required. Now he's in one hell of a pickle.


Edit: From the little looks that Jorah gave Jon, I think there's a chance that he sacrifices himself to save Jon at some point, so that Daenerys can be with her true love even if it's not him.

That would be the sappy ending at least, so I think it's in play for the show moreso than the books.

 Ouze wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.

I think it's very likely he's going to end up exactly like the last Pyromancer - on the wrong end of Jaime's sword.


Also, it's a good point that the Night's Watch isn't going to exist, most likely, at the end of the series, so that throws a serious kink into the idea that Jorah takes the black. Perhaps Daenarys will legitimize/absolve him, though it's a much better arc for him to have returned to honor via the black.

I could see Jamie killing Qyburn and Cersei, the first one for turning his sister into the Mad Queen. And the latter for being the Mad Queen.

If you're already the Kingslayer, what's the downside to adding Queenslayer and Kinslayer to the title?

 d-usa wrote:
He broke the laws of Westeros and was exiled. And he didn't just break any law, he became a slaver. For that he was stripped of all his titled and claims, and that's the reason he went across the narrow

]As much as he has done for Danny, and despite her feelings for him, he is a disgraced lord who was sentenced to death and has no legitimate claims to anything in Westeros. Sure, if Danny wins she can hand him any claim she wants to hand him. But despite everything they have been through, I don't see the Breaker of Chains handing land and titles to a former slaver.

Taking the Black would let him serve her in an important role, and a role that I imagine will have extreme prestige once the 7 Kingdoms know what the Night's Watch protects them from. And it would also allow him to atone for the crimes he committed in Westeros.

He already atoned for his actions against Danny, and he already turned down a pardon once, so restoring his name and honor by his own actions is the only thing left for him to do.

Arya has killed various people
Tyron killed his father - he is now Hand of the Queen,
The Dothraki are slavers - something Dany seems to ignore - the Ironborn are supposed to stop, she said nothing about the Dothraki doing so.... enforcing that would likely break their culture.
The Sand snakes killed their king and other royals - Dany made them allies.

Cersei blew up the head of the Church and half the nobility - no one really cares anymore.

Before the events of the show - the Mountain slaughtered royal children and raped and killed the wife of the heir to the throne - his side won so no one cares. If Dany wins - no one will care about what Jorah did in the past - except, maybe Jorah . What Jorah did or did not do will mean precisely nothing to anyone who surives the war between the present claiments to the throne or against the dead.

It might matter to him but I think he feels now that he has atoned fully. If she asks him to stay and serve her - thats what he is going to do.

IF the Night Watch remians anything like it is now - I can see Jamie becoming one if his sister (and their child are dead)

It's a true statement for the latest books in the series.

GRRM is suffering from using the exact opposite approach that the show is using to solve one of the biggest problems in the story right now: The 7 Kingdoms are huge, key players are scattered all over the damn place, they all need to be in certain locations at certain times to do certain things.

GRRM is trying to bring them all together as organically as possible. If it takes Person A 4 weeks to travel wherever he is supposed to encounter Person B, and it only takes Person B 2 weeks to get there, then there has to be a reason for Person B to be 2 weeks late getting there so that they can just happen to accidentally meet. All this "there has to be a reason these people happen to be here at this time to do this thing while running into these other people" is the reason why the books are getting more convoluted. He is trying to bring the together without making it feel forced, and as a result it's just become a convoluted mess.

The show approach is just "He needs to talk to them, they need to destroy this fleet, they came from here and will fight here, scene and action". Instead of convoluted stories about traveling and the random ass things that happen during the travel and the intricacies of pie baking techniques, we end up with a cut screen and time jumping all over the place.

There is good reason to bitch about both approaches though, although I don't think I could do much better.

Well GRm also goes out of his way to make characters not meet - eg Tyrion and Dany in Meerem, various people in the North etc -I honestly think he is happier for us to potter around the world with him and his fav characters - there does not seem to be any editorial control over what he writes and no real deadlines so he just does what appeals to him. Which is a nice place to be if you are a writter who does not really have a way (or indeed inlcination) to end the story.

Episode 6 was leaked by both HBO Spain and I believe HBO Nordic (?) yesterday. That's 2 leaked episodes in 3 weeks to go along with scripts that leaked back in January (I think that long ago) that so far have proven to be almost 100% accurate.

The writing is terrible, just like the previous episodes. I think fan fiction would be the best description. There's really no why as to events that happen outside of because it's expected/would be cool. Travel times are even more absurd than the magical teleporting Varys of season 6.

I think that after a year of no Game of Thrones season 7 will be reviewed much more critically. Right now most viewers are all aboard the hype train.

Yeah. I've not really minded a more..."concise" approach in the first half of the season, but Ep6 was just kinda ridiculous. Like it actually took me out of the experience of watching because I kept thinking "wait, where with the who now?".

They showed some passage of time. Not a huge amount of it, but it wasn't Super instant.

Small request as someone who has managed to avoid all leaks: can we be sure to use spoiler tags for the upcoming episode until after it officially airs?