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gorgon wrote: Again, I'm not going to freak out about raven and dragon flight times on their own. It's fantasy...they can take a mulligan here or there. The thing for me is that the contrivances through the entire sequence stack up, culminating in using Benjen as a deus ex machina and discarding him, all in service of ACTION beyond all else. It's possible to rewrite the sequence in a cleaner, less cliched manner that serves the characters better.
I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
If Cold Hands had never existed as a character, you can bet the sequence would have played out slightly differently.
This may have been touched on, I confess I've scan read a lot of the posts about this weeks Ep, but has it actually been established how long Jon and co were in the middle of the lake by those criticising the timing?
Because they're in the North, and it's Winter. We see them on that rock from nightfall to sunrise, but even in real life Earth a polar night can exceed 24 hours, so in magical Westeros there's every plausible chance that a night, north of the wall, during winter, could last for days.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: This may have been touched on, I confess I've scan read a lot of the posts about this weeks Ep, but has it actually been established how long Jon and co were in the middle of the lake by those criticising the timing?
Because they're in the North, and it's Winter. We see them on that rock from nightfall to sunrise, but even in real life Earth a polar night can exceed 24 hours, so in magical Westeros there's every plausible chance that a night, north of the wall, during winter, could last for days.
The director said 'one long night'.
And if you want to believe that one night really means much longer than one night, then you bump into the reality of them simply freezing to death as they were standing there with no fire.
Ultimately, its just something you have to ignore and know that they sacrificed a bit of travel time 'reality' in order to keep the story moving and the stakes high. Dany and her Dragons needed to go to the North, and the only way that was going to happen is if Jon and Jorah were in peril beyond the wall. So if they didn't pull this little trick of ignoring distances, then they would have had to come up with some other equally (IMHO) ridiculous reason to have them stranded up beyond the wall for days waiting for the Dragons to hopefully arrive.
This was the much better choice (again IMHO), because it allowed the point of the story to unfold continuously, and kept the tension of the scene intact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 22:11:54
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
Writing yourself into a corner where you have no viable way of making this part of the story make the least bit of sense is bad story telling - the wirters are paid hell of a lot of money not to do that.
Run to the wall and send a raven was stupid, insulting and pathetic - run back across zombie polar bear infested wilderness, on snow, somewhere I have never been and having passed through snowstorms and the like. Yeah thats good story telling.
Well, since I just explained how all of this was possible with in world logic, I fail to see how they have written themselves in to a corner. Even then, it could easily be explained in the next episode by Bran talking to Sansa or Arya about Jon and his expedition north. I think you just forget there is in all powerful worg in the show who can control people/animals over long distances as well as time.
Also, one single undead bear does not make for "zombie polar bear infested wilderness". I would assume if there was more out there roaming around to eat intruders, they would have descended upon the only group of living people north of the wall quite quickly.
gorgon wrote: Again, I'm not going to freak out about raven and dragon flight times on their own. It's fantasy...they can take a mulligan here or there. The thing for me is that the contrivances through the entire sequence stack up, culminating in using Benjen as a deus ex machina and discarding him, all in service of ACTION beyond all else. It's possible to rewrite the sequence in a cleaner, less cliched manner that serves the characters better.
I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
If Cold Hands had never existed as a character, you can bet the sequence would have played out slightly differently.
Then find two more minutes of episode time to give Benjen a better sendoff, since his reunion with Jon is full of symbolism and meaning. Losing the pointless zombie bear gets you about 60 alone. They're making storytelling decisions almost completely based on plot advancement and kewls. It's getting us a breakneck pace and lots of crowdpleasing moments. But it also seems shallow since the tradeoffs include characters and sense.
It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this. It was never a 'turn off your brain and watch the SFX' kind of show back then. In a way, this is great news for Martin, since people might still buy his future books (if they ever happen) looking for a less rushed, more satisfying ending. They certainly won't be rushed, at least.
I will say that I'm giving the showrunners the benefit of the doubt regarding Arya and Sansa. Their melodrama is probably manufactured to make Littlefinger think his whispers are working. It's hardly the most ingenious deception that the show has seen, but we have to take what we can get right now.
gorgon wrote: Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this.
I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/25 01:19:19
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
After having watch each episode multiple times I can saty that, while I get what people are saying about the show. It can ll be boiled down to the fact that we are missing 3 episodes. All the pacing and story and problems can be boiled down to that. Given how this is HBO biggest show I place the blame solely on them. They should of just given the money needed to get a full 10 episodes and most of these criticisms would be gone.
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
gorgon wrote: It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
No, he ended up saving both the 3-eyed Raven and Jon Snow, two people who will certainly be pivotal to the end game of the show.
You can say having Cold Hands in the show was just 'fan service', but the character did disappear in the beginning of the show, so it was nice touch having him come back to save Bran and again to sacrifice himself to save Jon. Not every single character needs to have a full arc and development. Benjen/Cold Hands (in the show) was always just a minor character, so there is nothing wrong with having him perform what he saw as his 'duty' after being turned (to save the Starks necessary to stop the White Walkers).
Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this. It was never a 'turn off your brain and watch the SFX' kind of show back then. In a way, this is great news for Martin, since people might still buy his future books (if they ever happen) looking for a less rushed, more satisfying ending. They certainly won't be rushed, at least.
There is obviously a huge difference between the way the show is now and how it was in the first few seasons, but I do object to it just being 'brain candy'. The pacing and style of the show is intentionally getting faster and more action-packed because the show is obviously building up to an actual world-defining event. So to have the story continue to move at the pace it did in the earlier seasons at this point would be absolute agony. Things are supposed to be getting tense and exciting on a regular basis. The days of strolling around and making secret plans are becoming fewer and more far between because its time for those end game plans to take effect. The entire pace of the story has changed to reflect that.
I honestly do not believe that GRRM will ever finish another book after the Winds of Winter. Because he has written himself so far into too many corners that there's simply no way for him to finish the story in the number of books he thought he could. Instead, he just keeps adding more and more pages to his books desperately trying to wind back to a place where he can get to his imagined endgame.
gorgon wrote: Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this.
I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.
Season 8 will be 6 episodes (instead of the 7 eps they had this season).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/25 01:42:47
But at a rumored 80 minutes per episode, it works out to about 8!
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Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Given how this is HBO biggest show I place the blame solely on them. They should of just given the money needed to get a full 10 episodes and most of these criticisms would be gone.
I don't think it was a money thing at all. I think Benioff and Weiss want to move on - every discussion has been around HBO trying to get as much of the show as possible, and the 2 showrunners wanting to wrap it up. I'm pretty sure HBO would have take as much as they would make - HBO programming execs explicitly said they want more, as much as 10 seasons.
“I think they’re trying to get a shape of the season,” HBO programming president Casey Bloys said. “They always do what they think [will yield] the best version of the show. It’s all about how many they’re comfortable [with]. But I’ll always take more.”
“This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.”
GoT has been such a hit for HBO they flat out have said they don't care if people pirate the show. They've spent more money on shows that weren't a fraction as popular. GoT is a huge driver of subscriptions for them.
The negotiation over season 8 was a stretch because apparently the showrunners wanted to flat out end it in season 7, and HBO is hoping they can negotiate one more reason this year - barring that they're looking at potentially 4 spinoffs. Not the acts of penny pinchers.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/25 02:18:48
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
gorgon wrote: In a sign that the apocalypse is near, I agree with Morden that the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys doesn't seem *quite* believable right now. And I think that's simply because they haven't had many scenes together in which they weren't only talking 'business'. The actors are fine, but that relationship -- like so many other things in the show right now -- needs more time to breathe IMO.
The show has always done fine despite it's two central heroes being two of its weakest actors. Because they were both surrounded by excellent character actors they were carried. Now the two of them have come together and need to build a believable romance, and it ain't happening so far.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Ouze wrote: I don't think it was a money thing at all. I think Benioff and Weiss want to move on - every discussion has been around HBO trying to get as much of the show as possible, and the 2 showrunners wanting to wrap it up. I'm pretty sure HBO would have take as much as they would make - HBO programming execs explicitly said they want more, as much as 10 seasons.
“I think they’re trying to get a shape of the season,” HBO programming president Casey Bloys said. “They always do what they think [will yield] the best version of the show. It’s all about how many they’re comfortable [with]. But I’ll always take more.”
“This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.”
GoT has been such a hit for HBO they flat out have said they don't care if people pirate the show. They've spent more money on shows that weren't a fraction as popular. GoT is a huge driver of subscriptions for them.
The negotiation over season 8 was a stretch because apparently the showrunners wanted to flat out end it in season 7, and HBO is hoping they can negotiate one more reason this year - barring that they're looking at potentially 4 spinoffs. Not the acts of penny pinchers.
You're dead right that HBO wants GoT to continue on indefinitely if it can, which is why they're looking into spin-offs, and it is true that the showrunners want the show to end at 8 seasons. However, I disagree that if they simply wanted/needed more money per ep, they could get it.
HBO does have a budget for each show, and so much they're willing to give for each episode. The GoT showrunners clearly wanted/needed more money per episode and suddenly the seasons are now getting less and less episodes. Yes, HBO would have let them make 10 episodes this season if they wanted, but not for the price each episode is currently costing. That's the key. Its the scope/cost of each episode now that means the overall budget designated for the season of GoT means they have to do less episodes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/25 02:34:33
yakface wrote: I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
I agree the motive was primarily to wrap up Benjen's story arc. I think that's actually the motivation for a lot of what we've seen so far this season - they're trying to wrap up loose ends while still keeping everything hurtling towards a conclusion. It's why the Martell and Tyrell houses were wrapped so summarily, with neither making much sense when you think about it*. It's just that those events were told well enough, and contained enough surprises (Cersei is back in the game!) that we didn't mind. Whereas Benjen's sudden appearance and arbitrary decision to commit pointless suicide was clunky.
*Highgarden fell to siege so quickly that a raven couldn't reach Danaerys before the walls were breached? And so what if Dorne lost its new leader to a naval ambush - the army still exists and whoever now led would be even more motivated to continue fighting.
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gorgon wrote: Then find two more minutes of episode time to give Benjen a better sendoff, since his reunion with Jon is full of symbolism and meaning. Losing the pointless zombie bear gets you about 60 alone. They're making storytelling decisions almost completely based on plot advancement and kewls. It's getting us a breakneck pace and lots of crowdpleasing moments. But it also seems shallow since the tradeoffs include characters and sense.
The answer wasn't add more Benjen screen time, but to include him in the events already underway. Have him arrive sooner, tell them their plan is stupid, maybe even have him arrive to help fight the polar bear. Then Benjen can sacrifice himself in a more organic way, maybe dying in order to let everyone else reach the frozen island, or to let them
It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
They introduced Coldhands late, but Benjen was right there at the start, his early mentoring was key to developing Jon's character, and the investigation of his disappearance was the starting point for everything that happened with the Night's Watch. The reveal of Benjen as Coldhands was a way of continuing that story, which then led to needing some kind of resolution to that story. Benjen dying to save Jon is a perfectly good resolution to that story, it's just they bungled the execution.
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Ouze wrote: I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot
I remember when mobile phones started becoming common it was pointed out how films either ignored them or invented weak reasons to have people fail to use them. People had little idea how to write stories were communication was instant.
A couple of decades later and it seems we are struggling to write stories where instantaneous communication isn't possible
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/25 03:08:28
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
Writing yourself into a corner where you have no viable way of making this part of the story make the least bit of sense is bad story telling - the wirters are paid hell of a lot of money not to do that.
Run to the wall and send a raven was stupid, insulting and pathetic - run back across zombie polar bear infested wilderness, on snow, somewhere I have never been and having passed through snowstorms and the like. Yeah thats good story telling.
Well, since I just explained how all of this was possible with in world logic, I fail to see how they have written themselves in to a corner. Even then, it could easily be explained in the next episode by Bran talking to Sansa or Arya about Jon and his expedition north. I think you just forget there is in all powerful worg in the show who can control people/animals over long distances as well as time.
Also, one single undead bear does not make for "zombie polar bear infested wilderness". I would assume if there was more out there roaming around to eat intruders, they would have descended upon the only group of living people north of the wall quite quickly.
There was two bears in the attack - one died and the other dragged someone off and disappeared. We had the bear running towards, chasing the scout and then the other one attacked as the first one approached.
Why would there be only one bear - special effects costs aside - I assumed that the dead are killing everything and anything useful and animating it - we have seen Mammoths, Giants and bears and now a Dragon, If they could afford it there would be wolves and ravens etc.
Yes they could have written something with Bran and Sansa or the like - they didn't, its very lazy writing that resulted in the pathetic "run to the wall and send a raven" - as I said very happy with normal travel being condensed and hand waved with "time passes" but they set up a scene in which time was a fundamental part of the tension and then ignored it cos reasons - mainly - nah lets focus on a Zombie bear attack - that's cool.
The whole Benjin thing was either to show how Jon's repeated stupidity gets people killed (which is a recurring theme) or again just dull writing. Yeah we know his magic horse can carry several people but nah lets get rid of him- he is only fan service.
I agree the motive was primarily to wrap up Benjen's story arc. I think that's actually the motivation for a lot of what we've seen so far this season - they're trying to wrap up loose ends while still keeping everything hurtling towards a conclusion. It's why the Martell and Tyrell houses were wrapped so summarily, with neither making much sense when you think about it*. It's just that those events were told well enough, and contained enough surprises (Cersei is back in the game!) that we didn't mind. Whereas Benjen's sudden appearance and arbitrary decision to commit pointless suicide was clunky.
*Highgarden fell to siege so quickly that a raven couldn't reach Danaerys before the walls were breached? And so what if Dorne lost its new leader to a naval ambush - the army still exists and whoever now led would be even more motivated to continue fighting.
Excellent points - now we know that magic ravens can ply at the speed of plot. Quite happy that Benin is gone - he was yet another deus ex machine but it was very very poor execution - which sums up the last episode.
Hoping for better things for next one.
The days of strolling around and making secret plans are becoming fewer and more far between because its time for those end game plans to take effect. The entire pace of the story has changed to reflect that.
And what was the best bit of the last episode myself and very many if not all of my friends? The Fellowship strolling around and the banter between them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/25 09:33:06
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
I am always a big fan of the moment of realization when the big antagonist realizes all is lost*. I, for one, would love to hear the NK howl a scream of inhuman contemplation when his final death blow is struck. Oh, I am sure it will happen, but whether he screams or not is the only question for me.
* Star Wars so totally and absolutely blew this with Emperor Palpatine - Richard Marquand should never have worked in Hollywood again after that blunder...
Eh? The Emperor screams as Vader carries him over to the shaft and throws him in.
That is not the moment of realization for the Emperor. He never properly realized that the Endor moon base station had been destroyed and the shield was now gone.
...sorry for the OT geek rant....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/25 13:57:13
The answer wasn't add more Benjen screen time, but to include him in the events already underway. Have him arrive sooner, tell them their plan is stupid, maybe even have him arrive to help fight the polar bear. Then Benjen can sacrifice himself in a more organic way, maybe dying in order to let everyone else reach the frozen island, or to let them
Yes, so much of this. It's not that they brought Benjin back to conclude his arc that's the issue, it's that it was such a throwaway momentary intervention. Shorten the bear scene - instead of watching multiple guys get mauled in a blizzard, watch one guy get mauled then have the bear go right at Jon and then just as it leaps you hear hooves and the birling whoosh sound of that fire flail thing and BAM double-dead bear. Use the saved minutes to add a couple of talky scenes between Benjin and Jon before they reach the army of the dead. In the end, have Jon be wounded rather than derping around until he falls through the ice, and have the last shot of the lake being wounded Job looking down from the dragon's back as it takes flight while Benjin holds back the dead and finally goes down.
As to folk sneering about using magic being just as silly as Gendry's Raven Express - guff, and it could have been used to provide yet more of the character-focused material that's made GoT so good: instead of having Thoros be a chewtoy for the bear, wait until they're trapped on the lake and then play into the dodgy side of the Lord of Light - he and Beric get a scene and Thoros reveals he can save them all, but only at the cost of his own life; they desperately scrabble through their packs for enough material to make a small fire, and Thoros does some really dark-lookin' blood magic crap to send Dany a message through the flames(short aside scene in Dragonstone where she becomes entranced by a brazier during a convo with Tyrion and then stomps off looking determined). Thoros still dies, but his death both extracts another solid character moment between him and Beric and lets the writers set up their Dragon Ex Machina without expecting the viewer to switch off their higher brain functions.
This is what folk are saying when they criticise how things are playing out in the show at the moment - it's not the concept of the pace increasing towards a crescendo that's the issue, it's the execution that's lacking. It's perfectly possible to write a version of GoT that's much snappier than the first few seasons but still stays true to the core tone of the piece and still leaves room for plenty of character drama in between the 'splosions.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
gorgon wrote: In a sign that the apocalypse is near, I agree with Morden that the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys doesn't seem *quite* believable right now. And I think that's simply because they haven't had many scenes together in which they weren't only talking 'business'. The actors are fine, but that relationship -- like so many other things in the show right now -- needs more time to breathe IMO.
The show has always done fine despite it's two central heroes being two of its weakest actors. Because they were both surrounded by excellent character actors they were carried. Now the two of them have come together and need to build a believable romance, and it ain't happening so far.
Neither of them are among the strongest actors on the show, but I think they're capable of pulling off a romance. We just need to see them have a couple moments together where they aren't talking conquest and undead, and doing the 'guarded royalty' thing. Jon and Ygritte mostly worked. Part of that was the natural chemistry from the personality differences and resulting friction, but they also had moments where they were just behaving like normal people (given the setting). We got maybe a smidge of that in the bedside scene, but we're also led to believe that these two are already in love at that point when there's no apparent reason that they should be.
sebster wrote: They introduced Coldhands late, but Benjen was right there at the start, his early mentoring was key to developing Jon's character, and the investigation of his disappearance was the starting point for everything that happened with the Night's Watch. The reveal of Benjen as Coldhands was a way of continuing that story, which then led to needing some kind of resolution to that story. Benjen dying to save Jon is a perfectly good resolution to that story, it's just they bungled the execution.
Yeah, I think everyone *fully understands* the showrunners' motivation, but the execution was terrible. Terrible. Jon and Benjen should have had a real moment together. It doesn't have to be a lot of screen time. Let them have that talk that was promised way back in the first season. Let Jon have some closure to something that was an important motivator for the character in earlier seasons, as you said. But I understand that the show is being written for people who don't remember who Benjen is anyway, and just want to see dragon action. I don't have to like it though. I liked the show that had a very long memory, not the one that can't be bothered.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/25 14:09:34
Benjen definitely suffers from a truncated closure. I'd have been much happier with an exposition campfire before the wights catch up with them on the way back to the wall.
Yeah, I think everyone *fully understands* the showrunners' motivation, but the execution was terrible. Terrible. Jon and Benjen should have had a real moment together. It doesn't have to be a lot of screen time. Let them have that talk that was promised way back in the first season. Let Jon have some closure to something that was an important motivator for the character in earlier seasons, as you said. But I understand that the show is being written for people who don't remember who Benjen is anyway, and just want to see dragon action. I don't have to like it though. I liked the show that had a very long memory, not the one that can't be bothered.
Which, again, does not seem to be an issue with the Showrunners. It has to do with HBO not giving them the extra 30 million they needed for a full 10 episodes. Its their Biggest show and a guaranteed money maker and they pull this? All on HBO really.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/25 15:05:16
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I won't lie Yodhrin, I liked the episode, but I like yours more.
Aye. I think a campfire and extra 5 might urges tacked on episode for them to catch up. Also showcase the change from he lasting meeting him as a young recruit to nights watch and still almost a kid to a king and leader of the North.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I won't lie Yodhrin, I liked the episode, but I like yours more.
Aye. I think a campfire and extra 5 might urges tacked on episode for them to catch up. Also showcase the change from he lasting meeting him as a young recruit to nights watch and still almost a kid to a king and leader of the North.
And guess what? That doesn't cost $10 million extra dollars. There are *writing* solutions to some of this that don't involve more money or threaten the pace and ending.
Also, Yodhrin and I being in agreement is surely the SECOND sign of the apocalypse.
They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
d-usa wrote: They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
At this rate it's more team incest VS team ice.
GoT because we just Don t care anymore what happens in that universe.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
... so this prophecy about Cersei being killed by one of her children.
It's just for her yeah ? No chance it could in fact be about Dany ?
... didn't think so.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
d-usa wrote: They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
It still came across as rushed though. Nothing in that scene made sense
- Why take 3 dragons this time? Why didn't she take 3 dragons against the lannisters?
- Why would the Night King target an airborne dragon instead of, you know, the stationary one with the people he's trying to kill?
- Why is Jon such a dumbass? I mean, he was fighting away from the evac, instead of towards. It made sense at first, he was trying to clear the take off zone, but then he just runs off and wastes everyone's time.
It would have had a lot more dramatic impact if they took off, the Night King tried nailing them but one of the dragons intercepted the javelin, sacrificing itself in the process. There, sense made in one line.
If the next episode is the last one I wouldn't get my hopes up. I can tell its going to rushed.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
... so this prophecy about Cersei being killed by one of her children.
It's just for her yeah ? No chance it could in fact be about Dany ?
... didn't think so.
The prophecy only specifies that a Valonqar ("Younger sibling") will kill her, not that it will necessarily be one of her children...Cersei believes it to be Tyrion. But it could also be Jaime. It could be Arya. It could be anyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/26 22:17:26
d-usa wrote: Noticed this floating around the internet:
So they should have been heading to get that dragonstone a few seasons ago.
Oh wow, so the writers forgot that they wrote that Stannis mentioned dragonglass at dragon's tone?
That's terrible.
Yes and no. He never mentioned quantity.
It could have been tons or fragments.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
~4100
~1660
