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Colonel Cross wrote:
Lol how is this thread still going?

Because conscripts are still 3 points.

And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Conscripts aren't a new toy - they were popular in 7th as a cheap tarpit. They have just become a lot better with the new wounding mecahnics and save mechanics and character mechanics. BTW all I play with are hardcore players.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

You have managed to successfully point out that overpowered units aren't that bad with a gentleman's agreement that limits their usage. Congratulations, everyone is perfectly aware of this. It should still be fixed, and people complaining do indeed help insure that things are fixed as soon as possible.

I could see maybe no orders, but the commissar rule is just that, a special rule with the commissar. That is something I do not think should be taken away. It assists in the survivability. Without it the unit would never be taken. I can meet halfway in the fact that I'd honestly STILL take this unity even if I couldn't give it orders. I would not take this unit if I had the fear of the entire unit running away after one turn, essentially making it useless in its purpose as a screen

You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Any unit that is so markedly, obviously OP is OP, yes.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Any unit that is so markedly, obviously OP is OP, yes.

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

Conscripts are good but ork storm boyz and other jump infantry will tear them into pieces first turn. Not a threat to the boyz.

40k should double everything in points (The max of the games too, so normal game 4k points instead of 2k) to have more desing space in the low spectrum. That way a Conscript could be 6 points, a Gretchin 4 points, a Guardsmen 8 points, a Hormagaunt 9 points, a Ork Boy 10 points, etc...

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

Perhaps those lower defensive stats are the price that grots pay for being BS3+ in a full-strength squad. (they're 4+ baseline, and go to 3+ if their squad has 20 or more models) I also note that their pistols are S3, not S2, and being pistols they can be used in melee.

Or would you like to contend that grots would need to be WS5+ BS3+ S3 T3 1W Sv 5+ to be "even" with WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 1W Sv5+ conscripts, even though that would put them pretty close to a Veteran's stat line?

Now, maybe BS3+ by itself is not enough to completely bring grots up to par, but it probably is enough to make it so overall the difference between them is less than 1 point. If GW wants to be able to fine-tune the low end that much, they'd have to increase the baseline for points across the board so that each point represents less value.

 Xenomancers wrote:
BTW all I play with are hardcore players.

We were unaware you play weekly to practice for the ETC/ATC.

Do you have battle reports or pictures of these matchups so we can see where you're having this issue? I know most warmachine players record their Win/Loss/Casters and lists.

The 150-200 Foot Guard lists haven't been that OP from two two games I've had so far in 8th. I've yet to see 300+ models on a table in 8th.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Tau have special rules and better weapons - support fire alone justifies their points costs.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

I play orks. Currently tankbustas are a little OP at 17 points.

The problem with conscripts is that they shoot and defend like a 5 point model but are 40% off. Tankbustas should be about 20 and so are 15% off. Not 40%.

a 40% discount puts them in the wraithknight/scatbike/riptide (7e) category. It seems odd because most people don't have 100 of the things, but 100 sv5+ wounds that can rapid fire 4 shots each puts them up there.

Wait, if you think conscripts should cost 5 points, how much would a guardsman cost? Or a Veteran for that matter, since those are 6 points? O_o

 JimOnMars wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

I play orks. Currently tankbustas are a little OP at 17 points.

The problem with conscripts is that they shoot and defend like a 5 point model but are 40% off. Tankbustas should be about 20 and so are 15% off. Not 40%.

a 40% discount puts them in the wraithknight/scatbike/riptide (7e) category. It seems odd because most people don't have 100 of the things, but 100 sv5+ wounds that can rapid fire 4 shots each puts them up there.

If they could not receive orders, would you think they are more fairly costed, as that 4 shots goes away? Mind you I am standing firm they SHOULD benefit from the commissars ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?

Conscripts are hasty planetary levies, and would be drawn the way the ordinary tithe is met: from the Planetary Defense Force. They're quite a bit better than Hive Militia, and have equipment and some training, but aren't particularly well disciplined or experienced.

I'm not actually sure why they, who have at least had some, if inadequate, training, have lower WS and BS than Chaos Cultists, who are deluded civilians.

Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?

Conscripts are hasty planetary levies, and would be drawn the way the ordinary tithe is met: from the Planetary Defense Force. They're quite a bit better than Hive Militia, and have equipment and some training, but aren't particularly well disciplined or experienced.

I'm not actually sure why they, who have at least had some, if inadequate, training, have lower WS and BS than Chaos Cultists, who are deluded civilians.

They are well armed militia essentially.

Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.



It's amusing to do the mathhammer for the entire 50-man blob in rapid-fire range, but if you've ever actually tried to play with Conscripts and do that, you'll find it nearly impossible. At best, maybe a dozen can get there, and that's assuming they didn't get charged or shot to pieces on turn 1.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

What do you mean "everyone else's fodder troops?"

Tryanids and Orks are immune to morale. That sums up everyone that matters' fodder troops.


Other factions that have them, like Tau and Chaos, deserve to have crappier fodder troops and our armies because they're not horde armies, and shouldn't be fielding big blobs of expendable guys as efficiently as armies that are supposed to work that way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

Are you really scared of 4 dead marines? Like previously stated also, take both away and they still won't break. We can get so many cp that we just use 2 to
Not break

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

IMO, it's neither. Conscripts are a tar-pit, and using orders on them to make them fire better is going to largely be a waste except in specific circumstances. Their biggest advantage is that they're some of the cheapest wounds in the game. They're pretty terrible at everything else they do, though.

Because of how characters work in this edition, snipers should prove to be exceptionally common. This means the commissar is only a problem until you take him out.

If you don't pack snipers, that's your choice to make.

If your opponent kills your snipers before they can do their jobs, GG. You got out-played.

Also, in order to take full advantage of conscripts, you need to have an officer who can issue orders within 6" of them since they cannot take a vox-caster (if I'm remembering correctly. I don't have my books in front of me). If he's that far forward, and you can kill the commissar, you can kill him too.

That's one more free victory point.

Finally, after you claim those two victory points conscripts only have LD 4, so just shoot them. They can only tarpit things they can assault, and if you have the resources necessary to kill two low-wound, low armor save characters (which is to say it's not difficult), just hit the conscript squad as hard as you can. Blow away a big chunk of them in one turn, and the morale phase will do the rest of your job for you.

Then, the only armies that can't snipe them into irrelevance blob better than IG do and will barely be slowed down by that conscript squad regardless.

New edition: new tools.
New tools: new problems.
New problems: new solutions.

May the meta never stop changing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.