Web Roster Creator got hit with C&D :(

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**DiscordDave**

I was one of the Army Builder authors in 3rd and 4th Edition, as well as some of Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic and some other odds and ends. (I go by warmonger on www.ab40k.org)

There's multiple ways that we historically have avoided legal action, because there were some C&Ds way in the past. Army Builder is made by a company, but the vast majority of the lists are fan made and hosted on another site. There are a few officially endorsed lists, but not many. We also went out of our way to not list all of the rules, ie. there were a lot of "see RULE on pg ##" so that it required a copy of the Codex. We also went out of our way to say "No, we do not want any donations of any kind."

I recently got back into the hobby after stopping in early 5th, and have been working on AB lists for Shadow War: Armageddon and playing around a bit on a very basic one for 8th edition, but after this, anything I do may never go public.

frozenwastes wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
Like the Army Builder data file authors, you mean?

Sure. Can you elaborate? I don't know enough about their history or lack thereof with GW legal. Are they open and contactable or are they anonymous?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratius wrote:
Wonder if Battlescribe will be hit too? :(

Is this a situation like Army Builder where the publisher of the software doesn't have anything to do with individuals making files for it?

Are the people making Battlescribe files for GW's games identifiable? Is the hosting done in such a way that getting it taken down is plausible? GW has totally failed to get the pirated copies of their actual books taken down over the years, so if these file creators are anonymous forum members using online file locker services, getting them to C&D is pretty much impossible.

Or are these open and contactable individuals with a clear web presence that can be asked to remove the files like Rippy was?

**lord_blackfang**

It's a shame, and I just found the site this week. The printouts have a nice layout, it was easy to use and the man got 8th ed. data up incredibly fast.

**Bookwrack**

rugludvanguard wrote:

Is this actually true or is it just Internet rumors ? Because i have never seen any other gaming company going after this fan tool/material as aggressively as GW...

We just had a thread in Dakka General about Palladium and some of there shenanigans...

**frozenwastes**

It also came up in the CBS Axanar case where CBS would have had to prove how Axanar was different than the other Star Trek fan projects they didn't sue had the case not been settled out of court part way through. Both CBS and Axanar addressed this in their motions (obviously with opposite points of view).

**plagueknight**

Seriously are people complete

wits it plain IP theft anyone claiming otherwise is a complete idiot especially ones moaning they can't build list since an army builder is gone
Not only did the creator blantaly rip off unit photos, faction emblems etc from the GW site but also was stupid enough to create a patreon so he could get paid for his work basically profiting off the GW IP what do you expect . It's a surprise they took so long to send the C&D

wit deserves everything he gets and is lucky it's the new GW and they are only giving him a C&D otherwise he would off been taken to to cleaners by GW legal team faster than you can say Waaagh!!!

**BaconCatBug**

plagueknight wrote:
Seriously are people complete wits it plain IP theft anyone claiming otherwise is a complete idiot especially ones moaning they can't build list since an army builder is gone
Not only did the creator blantaly rip off unit photos, faction emblems etc from the GW site but also was stupid enough to create a patreon so he could get paid for his work basically profiting off the GW IP what do you expect . It's a surprise they took so long to send the C&D wit deserves everything he gets and is lucky it's the new GW and they are only giving him a C&D otherwise he would off been taken to to cleaners by GW legal team faster than you can say Waaagh!!!

Found the paid shill

**ncshooter426**

Side note - I pulled his entire jscript library from the site. all that work can be...held onto for safe keeping.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

plagueknight wrote:
Seriously are people complete wits it plain IP theft anyone claiming otherwise is a complete idiot especially ones moaning they can't build list since an army builder is gone
Not only did the creator blantaly rip off unit photos, faction emblems etc from the GW site but also was stupid enough to create a patreon so he could get paid for his work basically profiting off the GW IP what do you expect . It's a surprise they took so long to send the C&D wit deserves everything he gets and is lucky it's the new GW and they are only giving him a C&D otherwise he would off been taken to to cleaners by GW legal team faster than you can say Waaagh!!!

Lol...no. You understand how much court costs right? GW operates on scare tactics - bringing an infringement case costs a fuckton of money with zero gain against an individual.

Fun fact - You can rehost the entire content again, but make the names generic + alter the photos and be completely untouchable. Interstellar Jarhead list builder, 2.0...I think i'll make this a thing tomorrow.

**NenkotaMoon**

Honestly, GW I believe they are in the right on this and it is stupid to defend this guy who was profiting upon this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

plagueknight wrote:
Seriously are people complete wits it plain IP theft anyone claiming otherwise is a complete idiot especially ones moaning they can't build list since an army builder is gone
Not only did the creator blantaly rip off unit photos, faction emblems etc from the GW site but also was stupid enough to create a patreon so he could get paid for his work basically profiting off the GW IP what do you expect . It's a surprise they took so long to send the C&D wit deserves everything he gets and is lucky it's the new GW and they are only giving him a C&D otherwise he would off been taken to to cleaners by GW legal team faster than you can say Waaagh!!!

Honestly they were nice to this guy, and that was surprising.

**Lorek**

Let's tone down the rhetoric, folks. (Not targeting you, NenkotaMoon!).

**frozenwastes**

I want to be like "gak, GW is sicking their lawyers on their most enthusiastic supporters again!" but I really can't get there on this one. Not when the guy who got contacted by their lawyers freely admits a list of lines he crossed and had a patreon.

Also, my guess is that someone making a roster builder site and hoping GW will collaborate with them like with scrollbuilder is probably in for disappointment. It's entirely possible that the guy who made scrollbuilder is already working on something for them. Or they have an app on the way.

Or 40k is so much more established that they don't need to offer a free army builder like they did with AoS. They didn't need to give away the data sheets for 40k like they did with the warscrolls for AoS.

**AndrewGPaul**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Grimgold wrote:
Ratius wrote:
Wonder if Battlescribe will be hit too? :(

Battlescribe is a fight they can't win, because he has compartmentalized the program from the data. It would be like trying to sue VLC because people use it to play pirated movies. They can go after the data repositories, but at worst that will be a minor inconvenience, since the program already has a data editor so anyone can modify the data files. They will just go from hosting it on github to hosting it on Mega with all of the other GW stuff of questionable legality. I don't want to sound like a battle scribe fanboy, because I'm not, in fact if I had my fancy I would punch the author square in his jimmies for what he did with battlescribe 2.0. Invalidating all of the battle scribe 1 repos (by replacing them with BS2 repos and hiding the BS1 repos), and adding a subscription model not because the program justified it, but because he could, is what we earthlings like to call a move. I bought the first battlescribe, and I loved it, and if the second had come with a similar business model, I would have bought that as well. As it is, I'm eagerly waiting for the GW version of war room, so I can drop battlescribe like a bad habit. Pigs get fat hogs get slaughtered.

Back to web roster, The thing that made it a more urgent target than battlescribe is that web roster was good. The UI was intuitive, it was visually appealing, battle scribe and GW could learn a lot from this guy. If GW had any sense they would offer him a job.
GW doesn't care about winning, it never has. It's about making the other person bleed money so they give up.

That was rather Grimgold's point (ignoring the fact that "It's about making the other person give up" is winning when it comes to civil law).

It's hard, if not impossible, for them to do that in the case of Battlescribe.

**Wayniac**

So technically putting it back up without the images and patreon Link should be perfectly fine because they set a precedent with scroll Builder which didn't have images and remove the Donate button and was fine and even Incorporated on the community site.

**frozenwastes**

Rippy hasn't shared the text of the correspondence from GW's laywers. We still don't know exactly what it said or what the deal breaker was. It's also possible that when GW legal saw just how much their art was being used that they didn't care to negotiate an acceptable version with Rippy and so they may not have out lined what an acceptable version would be.

It's certainly more likely to be C&D resistant if it doesn't use GW's art and if the page doesn't have a revenue stream attached to it.

**Umbros**

Yeah the creator even admits that he was clearly infringing their rights, so it is hard to criticise them for protecting their own rights. The disappointing part is that they didn't work with them to make it official. That would have been a good move. I hope the impending GW option is as good in terms of points-power switching although much cleaner in presentation.

GW is clearly not entirely opposed to this concept - look what they did with scroll builder.

**stroller**

Coming late to this version of the party.

Check the front page of the website. No C&D letter, but a polite "please stop". Author also freely admits copying. Lucky NOT to get C&D.

**frozenwastes**

No, lucky not to get sued is what he said. As in, GW could have just filed an actual suit and they'd be justified. He got contacted by laywers who told him to stop doing something. That's a C&D letter.

EDIT: Arguing semantics, sorry about that!

Turns out Rippy doesn't even classify the correspondence as anything more than a polite notice of infringement.

**Lendys**

TheWaspinator wrote:
On the other hand, there have been fan-run online list builders for X-Wing and Heroclix for years (complete with full rules information) with no problems.

But to play most tournaments you must have the cards (upgrades) and dials and ships and whatnot. Knowing what the upgrade is doesn't help you much if you don't have the FFG products. This is a lot less true for 40K where there is a lot more leeway with models and books and such.

**auticus**

This is my shocked face.

That web builder was basically giving the indexes away for free.

**stroller**

To frozenwastes:

My (partial) bad. Two threads on this, each linking to different webpages. On the other one, Reepy says:

"I want to point out the email I got from GW was not a Cease and Desist order. It was a polite notice of infringement with which I complied. They didn't just throw the book at me."

Hence my comment.

**frozenwastes**

stroller wrote:
To frozenwastes:

My (partial) bad. Two threads on this, each linking to different webpages. On the other one, Reepy says:

"I want to point out the email I got from GW was not a Cease and Desist order. It was a polite notice of infringement with which I complied. They didn't just throw the book at me."

Hence my comment.

I get where you were coming from now. I guess Rippy didn't interpret the email as some sort of demand to immediately stop doing something, but a polite notice.

That's cool. That's much better than GW opening up with a threat of further legal action unless things are shut down immediately.

I read some of the comments but didn't check back. My apologies for getting that wrong. I just assumed that when a lawyer contacts you to stop doing something because of copyright infringement it would count as a C&D, but maybe it needs to be a forceful letter threatening further legal action to count?

**Wayniac**

auticus wrote:
This is my shocked face.

That web builder was basically giving the indexes away for free.

How is that different than scrollbuilder giving away the generals handbook and the back of the battletomes

**craggy**

I wonder how it'd go down if in court if someone had a website giving points values for Imperial Guard and Space Marines? GW don't even make those.

**Lord Kragan**

rugludvanguard wrote:
Does GW provide a tool to build lists? No
Was the ListBuilder for Profit? Yes

Spare me the charade and let's cut it clean. Guy had a Patreon running for this. While not outright charging from it he intended to get some measure of profit out of it. Unlike the scrollbuilder author, who removed the donate button and still kept at it.

**Peregrine**

Why does the money matter? You can't copyright game rules, so this is just a case of GW saying "I have more money to spend on lawyers, do what I say regardless of the law".

**Trickstick**

Peregrine wrote:
Why does the money matter? You can't copyright game rules, so this is just a case of GW saying "I have more money to spend on lawyers, do what I say regardless of the law".

You can copyright images though, which is applicable to this situation. Also, has the "can't copyright game rules" thing ever been tested in court? I must admit I don't know much about that.

**Peregrine**

Trickstick wrote:
You can copyright images though, which is applicable to this situation.

This is true. But if it's just about the images it's easy to replace any material that GW owns the copyright to without shutting down the whole list builder, the images might be a nice aesthetic addition but they aren't necessary content.

Also, has the "can't copyright game rules" thing ever been tested in court?

No test is needed, US copyright law explicitly states "you can not copyright game rules". Where was the creator from?

**Trickstick**

Fair enough. Could you patent your rules? That would seem to be the relevant IP protection.

**Peregrine**

Trickstick wrote:
Fair enough. Could you patent your rules? That would seem to be the relevant IP protection.

You could, but unlike copyright getting a patent requires you to demonstrate that your invention is actually something new and innovative. And, unlike copyright, patents only last for a limited time. Nothing about 40k's current rules is innovative at all, and any patents GW might have been eligible back in the very early days of wargames would have expired a long time ago.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Peregrine wrote:
Where was the creator from?

Bulgaria, apparently.

**Trickstick**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Where was the creator from?
Bulgaria, apparently.

So it would fall under EU law. Probably. Who knows what EU law applies in the UK now. We have opt-outs galore.