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Pask can't choose himself but can choose other rank commanders

It really seems large blasts are pretty weak in 8th especially for guard. Versus infantry a large blast template could pretty easily hit 6+ models. Now we have a D6 where we loose half of those hits because of the ballistic skill... Also bye to barrage and other tools that didn't rely on ballistic skill.

At BS4 scatter dice had a 44% chance not to scatter, and beyond that you'd likely still hit 2-3+ models. So now its a D6 on average what a 3.5, ok not so bad right? Well nope cut that in half because of ballistic skill yay (so how about that average of 1-2 hits on a blob of infantry, cuz well that makes sense right!....)

Well on the bright side that means large blasts are much worse versus infantry so get those guardsmen out, and wave goodbye to model placement, just pile them on top of each other!

Yeah, I still think 1d6 should have been the standard for small blasts, and 2d6 (or at a minimum 2d6 drop lowest) for large blasts.

Unifying nearly all blasts into 1d6 was a pretty good deal for small blasts, not so much for large. I suppose 2d6 blasts technically do exist, they're just exceedingly rare (perhaps too rare).

It does still work as a rough rule of thumb for expected performance though. 1d6 weapons have been performing about as well as small blasts, 2d6 about as well as large. So I guess one way of looking at it is that most blast weapons are just small blast now, and true large blasts are incredibly rare.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Pask can't choose himself but can choose other rank commanders

Many people, including myself, disagree with you.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728025.page

There is nothing that prevents Pask from ordering himself.

 Stus67 wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

Where does it say he can't issue Orders to himself?

I mean I Hope im wrong, it says he "can issue orders to other leman russ tanks." Which I think implies he can issue orders to himself. The consensus Ive seen around is that he cant do it to himself though.

Coming from playing MTG when something says "can do to other" it usually means it doesn't benefit from that ability itself, but can only grant it to others of the same type. I'm not sure about here though since GW usually isn't that tight with its wording. I'm hoping it'll come up in a FAQ or something.

Pask can certainly order himself although this is not apparent from the Index.

Page 41 of the Index : Knight Commander pask can issue orders to a friendly CADIAN LEMAN RUSS. Keywords: Cadian, Leman Russ (amongst other items)

Now, let us look at the BRB page 179 Aura abilities. It specifically states that a Lord of Contagion may use Nurgle's gift on himself as it affects all Death Guard models, and given that he has the Death Guard keyword himself, he will benefit himself as well.

I think this issue is quite crystal clear when you refer to the BRB.

Edit: Beat me to the answer by a minute lol.

From a tactical standpoint, Pask being able to order himself moves him from "middling" to "intriguing." Unless he's paired with a superheavy or a ton of artillery, he's going to get shot to hell turn one. I don't see a problem with him giving orders, but if that gets FAQ'd, it does limit his efficacy, but I just don't' see him (or any Russes) as top shelf units.

easypeasylemonsquezy wrote:It really seems large blasts are pretty weak in 8th especially for guard. Versus infantry a large blast template could pretty easily hit 6+ models. Now we have a D6 where we loose half of those hits because of the ballistic skill... Also bye to barrage and other tools that didn't rely on ballistic skill.

At BS4 scatter dice had a 44% chance not to scatter, and beyond that you'd likely still hit 2-3+ models. So now its a D6 on average what a 3.5, ok not so bad right? Well nope cut that in half because of ballistic skill yay (so how about that average of 1-2 hits on a blob of infantry, cuz well that makes sense right!....)

Well on the bright side that means large blasts are much worse versus infantry so get those guardsmen out, and wave goodbye to model placement, just pile them on top of each other!

Yeah, people forget that large blasts were actually fairly reliable in the past. 1/3 of the time they hit directly, and most of the time they only deviated a few inches. Particualry against large units, they were deadly, and if they hit a bunched up unit, they could easily lay 8 or more wounds on a unit. The highest maximum number of hits with a basic LRBT is now six (a shockingly tiny percentage of the time) with the bulk of shots resulting in 1-2 hits. I liked the change in theory, but as presented for the LRBT, it hurts them pretty bad.

I think that GW really felt that they new rules would make vehicles more durable in general, but the LRBT wasn't even close to fragile from long range shooting. AV14 was tough to crack at range. I lost most of my russes to meltas or just to krak grenades in assault (pre errata). the new rules actually make it lot easier for enemies to shoot Russes off the board, which is interesting.

ross-128 wrote:Yeah, I still think 1d6 should have been the standard for small blasts, and 2d6 (or at a minimum 2d6 drop lowest) for large blasts.

Unifying nearly all blasts into 1d6 was a pretty good deal for small blasts, not so much for large. I suppose 2d6 blasts technically do exist, they're just exceedingly rare (perhaps too rare).

It does still work as a rough rule of thumb for expected performance though. 1d6 weapons have been performing about as well as small blasts, 2d6 about as well as large. So I guess one way of looking at it is that most blast weapons are just small blast now, and true large blasts are incredibly rare.

Well, part of the problem is balancing the shot aganist both tanks and infantry. 2d6 krak missile shots will chew up nearly any large model! I don't have an easy solution, but I know that the battle cannon is weak tea.

Elites
Once a relatively boring part of the army list, the Elites section has blossomed from it's past of four simple options. Two game wide trends , and one army specific one, caused a spike in the Elites section. First, command squads all shifted from HQ choices to Elites, and for the AM they became decoupled from their officers. Second, all of the support characters that used to not take up slots or were attached to command squads were all moved here. Finally, the venerable infantry platoon, a unique structure to the AM since 2nd edition in the late 1990s, was broken up, with several parts moving here to Elites. All of this makes the current Elites section a cornucopia of delights!

Master of Ordnance
For my own writing ease, I tackle these units more or less in the order of the books, and oddly, the Master of Ordnance is the first Elites choice in the Index, and the third overall. He has what Warmachine players call “victim stats,” meaning he cannot be expected to endure any actual fighting. His only wargear is a pistol. However, he has, as you'd imagine, a very nice special rule, and a nifty little aura. His aura is cunningly related to Ordnance, and the mastery of the same, giving a range of artillery vehicles the ability to re-roll ones to hit, assuming they are within 3” of the MoO, and are targeting enemy units over 36” away. With artillery being pretty good in this edition, this is a fine ability, even if the blind spot will be a factor more than you'd initially think. His other party trick is the ability to, if he did not move, shoot a battle cannon shot anywhere within 100”, with -1 to hit if the target is out of line of sight. With BS3+, that will do a bit of work. GW knows it audience by stating that only one Artillery Barrage can be fired per turn, regardless of how many models have the rule. (somewhat bizarrely, the artillery barrage is listed as a weapon profile, but not as wargear or a special rule, so technically, there's nothing saying he can actually use it.... Even more bizarrely, it's listed as a ranged weapon in the points list!) The Master is priced right around the point where you aren't going to spam him, because that would get silly and expensive, but he's cheap enough that if you run the artillery, he's a sound investment.
Overall: Competitive

Platoon Commander
To borrow another phrase from Warmachine, the Platoon Commander is an order on a stick. He doesn't do much other than provide a single order, and gives up a wound from his more senior counterpart. He does still have a refractor field, and can take the same weapons as a captain with the same skill, so he can provide some punch... but really, who isn't going to pay 10pts more for an extra wound and order? Since I've covered orders in fairly complex detail, the question for the Platoon Commander is: when would only ever want one order? The answer, simply put, is whenever you only have one squad that could benefit. If you had a squad of plasma vets in a valkyrie or Chimera, you could pay a few points for Take Aim! To avoid overcharge deaths. If you had a conscript screen that operated apart from the fire base (or you don't have a fire base at all) than a single order is all you need. Of course, captains can give the second order to themselves, allowing them to move further, fight twice, or fall back and shoot. Virtually all AM armies with basic infantry will run Company Commanders by default, but taking the Platoon Commander requires a plan. However, in those instances where the second order would be wasted, you can save a few points. Also, with command squads now limited to the number of officers, if you want to spam command squads, you'll want to include more of these guys.
Overall: competitive

Command Squad
No unit has fallen further in status than the poor command squad. In prior editions, the AM had two command squads, each permanently attached to either company or platoon commanders. Company command always had the option for standards and medics, and in more recent editions had veteran level BS. Now, they are all one, with BS3+, the abilty to take a single heavy weapon, up to four special weapons, a heavy flamer, a vox, a regimental standard, or a medipack. Unlike in prior editions, there is no real ability for the command squad to hide or gain cover, and they have no innate defensive tech such as carapace armor or camo cloaks. So, what you have are four straight shooting lads with T3 and 5+ saves, making them easy bolter bait. The initial consensus is to load them up with weapons, buy in three packs, and fill up a transport with BS3+ special weapons. I can't really disagree with that, as that will pack a hell of a wollop, and isn't all that expensive, aside from the transport. For that reason, I favor scions, but for the fans of mechanization, you can basically run fire dragons for a lot cheaper!
A goofier, and more classical option is to keep the squad with lasguns, but give them a standard and medic. This allows all squads in 6” to add 1 to their leadership, and can return a wound to a unit on a 4+. This unnecessary dice rolling on a fairly fragile platform sours me, but putting even one model back on the board can often pay for itself. This is a neat little support unit, but the codex is simply chock full of neat little support units in the 30-50pt range, and you can't buy them all. For serious play, go with special weapon spam, but for fun games, break out your flags and medics. EDIT: as of the 7/2/17 FAQ command squads are limited to one per officer, which makes the ability to spam these a lot more difficult. That doesn't change them being extremely efficient special weapon platforms.
Overall: highly competitive

Special Weapon Squad
Limited to six men with three special weapons, the humble SWS retains it's low leadership and BS4+ befitting basic guardsmen with no sarge. In an “it is still true, and it's still kind of funny” moment, I remind my reader that the SWS is one of the very few 40k units without a special rule of any kind. It's six models with a single statline, and some weapons. That's it. It's an odd choice for the Elites section, but it's hard to think of a better place for them, aside from troops, in all honesty. Anyway, we are spoiled for choice for units that can take multiple special weapons, and nearly all of them do it better than the actually designated Special Weapon Squad. Command squads have BS3+ and can take a fourth gun, veterans have more bodies and BS3+, Scions have, well, quite a bit going for them.
So, why take the SWS? Easy... it's the only place to get the demolition charge. Somewhat cleverly designated a grenade, the demo charge has the expected d6 shots, still S8 with AP3 and d3 damage. It's also cheaper than a flamer (it's natural pairing), making a squad with two flamers and a demo charge well under 50 points. It's short ranged and fragile, but you can cram two into a transport. It might not be the strongest option, but if you really like hand tossed explosions, its' your best choice. For dedicated fluff heads, the SWS with three sniper rifles and three spotters makes an actually functional military unit, compared to the idea of a squad full of sniper rifles, but it's of very marginal efficacy.
However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk. SWS is also now a lot easier to spam than command squads, thanks to the FAQ.
Overall: Competitive

Veterans
After two editions as troops, the veterans have moved back to their rightful place as Elites, which is fine since 8th edition has given up any pretense of Troops choices as a moral imperative. A fairly complicated unit, the vets, alone of the regimental guard infantry, can swap lasguns for shotguns, which give up 12” of range to become Assault 2 and strength 4 at half range. This is simply cool, and gives them a dangerous and fun edge. As in prior editions, the Vets are BS3+, but otherwise basic guardsmen. Unlike prior editions, the only real options are weapon related, and the doctrines available in the past are gone. (On a tangent, it's annoying that they included rules for shotguns, which have never had models aside from a single cadian lieutenant in 2nd edition, but not carapace armor, which is clearly on Vostroyon models top to bottom.)
Still, the weapon options available are quite nice. They can take a heavy, up to three special weapons, plus a heavy flamer. In addition, the sarge can take all the pistol and melee options, including a power fist. Vets got a price break from 7th edition, and are really cheap enough to serve as your line troops. The basic builds are pretty straightforward, with triple plasma and lascannon as your main firepower build, and triple melta forming the core of a tank hunter build, with heavy flamer, power first, plasma pistol, or even a heavy weapon added to taste. As you'd expect, the latter build should invest in shotguns and a transport. Vets are one of the very few sources of BS3+ heavy weapons, and I'd stick to lascannons to maximize their value. Compared to Command Squads, Vets are not the most efficient delivery mechanism for special weapons, but enjoy a bit more durability, but less than Scions. As a rule, unless you're using the specific advantages of Vets, such as the heavy flamer or shotguns, I’d make sure you would be better off with Scions or Command squads.
Overall: Competitive

Commissars
It was frustrating discussing Lord Commissars or Yarrick prior to the basic model, who provide a crucial lynchpin for the modern Astra Militarum. With the same statline as a platoon commander but with LD8, the commissar isn't going to survive much, and while he can take any pistol or melee weapon, he must come stock with the iconic bolt pistol. However, he's not there to fight, but to keep your soldiers “motivated.” For starters, any unit within 6” can use his leadership, which is great for low morale troops like conscripts. More callously, his coldy named Summary Execution rule means that no unit within 6” will lose more than one model to a failed morale check. This means that a single model can stand among a gunline, and not only buff their morale, but even if the dice go south, keep a squad from dissolving.
The synergy of summary execution with the only large squad we have, conscripts, is self evident. Instead of melting due to morale, they require the enemy to now kill virtually all of them the old fashioned way. It's a great combo, and doesn't need to be spammed or abused to be effective. Even a single squad, with a single man in black, can do great work. In the first 3rd Edition IG codex, there was a brief army building guide that said “Always take 2-3 commissars.” (bold from original text) that was a steep claim at the time, but is now basically true. The AM have a toolbox full of buffs to increase our leadership or allow re-rolls to morale. A simple character does one better, in minimizing the loss from failed checks. To an extent, with them around, points spent preventing failed morale are just wasted, as you can just lose another four or six point model. While OP, it's nice to finally see such an iconic and beloved model get nice rules.
Overall: highly Competitive

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
This unit, another casualty of the command squad decoupling, is generally the same as the basic AM command squad, minus the ability to take heavy weapons or a heavy flamer. Instead, they can take all the basic special weapons plus the hot shot volley gun, discussed in more detail below. More crucially, they gain carapace armor and the Aerial Drop rule, the latter of which allows the squad to be deployed at the end of any movement phase anywhere more than 9” from an enemy unit. If this sounds like a really cheap way to have accurately deepstriking special weapons, welcome to the 8th edition hype train. There's nothing clever I can write about these guys. They technically have the option for standard and medic, but I’m not sure I can think or a reason to take those. MT Command compete most notably with Scions themselves, who can take four specials as well, but in a 10 man platform instead of the all killer, no filler four man command squad. That said, 10 scions is not easy to kill, so scion squads can hand around a bit longer. In terms of sheer damage on time, and on target, this is the unit of choice. As of the first FAQ, these are limited to one per Tempestus Prime, which seems to strongly push for a bit of a balanced diet (Prime, Scions, and Command squad).
Overall: Highly competitive

Ogryns
A unit choice dating back to Rogue Trader, Ogryn are the Ogres in space that help to round out the fantasy tropes common in early 40k. Obstensibly the assault specialists, Ogryn have been underwhelming since I started playing 3rd edition. By far the biggest issue with Ogryn was always a limited ability to deal damage in combat, with no access to power wepaons. Of course, now that 8th edition had introduced AP modifiers, I was expecting Ogryn to gain at least a little soemthing to help crack armor. And... prepare to be disappointed. The good news is that Ogryn are now substnatially cheap, a 5+ save actually means soemthing now, and they got a slight morale bump. The bad news is that there are now dozens of weapons that deal multiple wounds, in both combat and shooting, and Ogryn are one of the few multi-wound units to not gain a wound in the new edition. So, Ogryn aren't OP, but are they usable?
Yeah, I think they are. They are just cheap enough that they can be taken in bulk, and do benefit from support, specifically priests, for War Hymsn, and astropaths for Fortify. They hit reasonably hard on the charge, and while they can't reduce armor saves, hitting and wound most things on 3+s will result in a lot of saves to roll. Somewhat unusally, they have a three shot gun, giving them far mroe firepower than most shock units, although don't confuse them for anything other than a shock unit. Ogryns are worst used against terminators, as their combination of a 2+ save and powerfists will not end well. However, they will cut through Orks or gaunts like butter, and he will also do efficient work against models with only an invulnerable save. Ogryn certainly can do things, but the question is more if your army needs it. There are cheaper and mroe versitle counter assault units avilable from other armies like assassins, but Ogryn do benefit from in army buffs. On the whole, they are a specialist unit that pretty much a good amount of work to include in an army, which I think limits their ceiling.
Overall: semi-competitive

Bullgryns
The mroe focused cousin of the Ogryn, Bullgryns trade their ripper gun for one of two sheilds and either a grenadier gauntlet or a Bullgryn Maul. Bullgryn are crazy durable, starting with a basic 4+ save, and gaining either a 4++ with the bruteshield or a 2+ with the slabshield. These can, and should, be mixed in the unit. It will take a truley dedicated effort to chew through these lads. the Gauntlet appears somewhat unfortunate, as an assault d6 gun with only S4. The Maul is actually slightly cheaper, and is a basic power maul with damage 2. With WS3+, S7, AP-1, and Damage 2 with three attacks (four on the charge), this is a unit that will hurt what it charges. At over 40pts per model, it should! Bullgryns, like all Ogryn, take up three slots in a transport, so putting them in a Chimera or valkyrie isn't a great idea. Depending on how you view buying Officers with <militarum axulia> regiment and giving orders to the Auxilia, you can get a lot of Bullgryns with Move!Move!Move! as well as Fix Bayonets!

Unlike basic Ogryn, Bullgryns don't mind mixing it up with terminators or monsters, and in many ways they are the ideal unit to send against Assault Terminators. They are also legit against vehicles, wounding all but the heaviest on fours with AP1. If they're not swining on something either high toughness or very hard hitting, they will struggle to really make their points back. I would screen them with conscripts to prevent them from being tarpitted or assaulted by units like Harliquins. Also unlike basic Ogryn, I don't think Bullgryn are really meant for counter assault. I think they're a shock unit, meant to lead attacks. I think you should be careful buying them, but if your play style is agressive, Bullgryns are one of the most durable units, and also the most capabel in hand to hand.
Overall: Competitive

Ratlings
Another ancient unit, Ratlings are the final abhuman squad in the index. They are sniper specialists, trading any ability to perform other battlefiled tasks for some sniping buffs. They are a rare S2/T2, with only a 6+ save, but if they are in cover, they get +2 to their save. They can deploy after all other units are deployed, anywhere mroe than 18" from the enemy (so, basically infiltrate). And they can move after shooting, allowing them to set up more shots. They are BS3+, and sniper rifiles are S4 and do an extra mortal wound on a 6+ to wound. In terms of damage, they're kind of wimpy, but they can target any character, even if they aren't the closest. It's still hard to actually do wounds, as 10 shots will do about one normal wound and one mortal wound to a T4/3+ save model. Ratlings are cheap, and will average about one mortal wound per turn with 36" range. If enemy support chracters are eating your lunch, Ratlings are the most efficient snipers you can find, but they are a unit with a narrow ideal target.
Overall: semi-competitive.

Officer of the fleet
Probably the first model to really feel out of place, the Officer of the Fleet's main ability is to target within 18", and then all Aeronautica Imperialis units can reroll ones to hit against that unit. Since the only AI unit is the valkyrie, with a not horribly impressive rack of shooting, he's clearly waiting for the Forge World indexes. Then, of course, he's just one more source of re-rolling onces to hit, but he has the burden of needing to be close to the target unit. He also can call in an air strike which does nothing half the time, d3 Mortal wounds a third of the time, and 3 mortal wounds a sixth of the time. He's on the cheaper end of AM support characters, but unless you're running a flyer wing, I'd leave him at home.
Overall: semi-competitive

Techpriest Enginseer
A reasonably durable, slightly choppy character that can heal d3 wounds a turn from any vehicle, this guy has "stand me next to a superheavy" written all over him. He's not exactly cheap, but he can keep units alive, or even undo degradation. I'm concerned that outside of superheavies, too many other vehicles can be shot up in one turn. I"m also concerned that with only move 6", he'll struggle to be in the right place at the right time. Still, he's a good insurance policy for superheavies.
Overall: competitive

Ministorum Priest
As hinted at, the priest, through his War Hymns rule, gives +1 attack to all units within 6". He can also personally re-roll hits on the first turn he fights, he can take a good range of melee weapons, and he rocks a 4++ with four wounds. He's a force multiplier, turning conscripts insto two attack models, or making Ogryn even punchier. If you are serious about a unit doing damage in combat, you should strongly consider a priest. Oddly, he's only WS4+. His buff stacks with Strackens, and can also be combined with "Fix Bayonets" to allow a unit to swing twice, both times with an extra attack. Also, don't forget that he gives himself an extra attack.
Overall: highly competitive.

Wyrdvane Psykers
A unit of psyckers, Wyrdvanes only get one dice on psychic tests, but can add +1 if the squad has three or more models, and +2 if six or more. all in all, this means that they are less capabel of casting powers than a primaris for more points, all while not being a character and thus able to hide from shooting. If you have a unit of these, break them up and use them as Astropaths, because Wyrdvanes are simply poor.
Overall: casual

Astropath
Let's not bury the lede on this guy: 12 pt psyker, albeit one that only gets 1d6 when testing for Smite. Still, 12 points buys you a pretty good chance at Psychic Barrier, making it a bargain. On a long enough scale, Astropaths are really the only psykers that the AM needs, althoughI prefer buying proper Primaris to get a touch of combat punch. You can put them with your tanks, or your gunline, or even riding along with vets. Even Smite succeeds a third of the time with them, and for that price, you can just buy three.
Overall: highly competitive.

Color Sergeant Kell
Hey, it's yet another support character! But this one is famous! Kell embodies the sort of “kind of good in fighting, has a couple of decent buffs, and doesn't cost all that much” philosophy that seems to permeate the Index. He has a company commander statline, but swaps the refractor field for carapace armor (4+ save). He has a powerfist and a power sword, which provides a bit of punch in combat, but his real value is in allowing all Cadian units within 6” to reroll morale. This is a pretty rare ability, and while the AM have a lot of ways to deal with morale, this is a different option. He also allows one officer within 6” to give an extra order, an ability that's neat but not overly valuable. Finally, he can take wounds for Creed if within 3”, which seems to reflect his classic role as a bodyguard. He costs a bit more than a company commander with fist and plasma pistol, so his appeal is basically in the morale re-rolls and keeping Creed alive. With commissars and command point rerolls, I don't rate the morale re-roll all that highly, and Creed shouldn't be taking too much damage as a character, so I think Kell is destined for narrative play.
Overall: Casual

Sergeant Harker
Harker, in a refreshing change of pace, offers some legitimate offensive firepower and a very simple, broad buff. Payback, his custom heavy bolter, is assault 3, with AP-2, which he shoots at a healthy BS3+, all at 36” range. This isn't overwhelming, but solid firepower. His rule, somewhat embarrassingly named Harkes Hellraisers, allows all Catachan units within 6” to re-roll all ones in the shooting phase. The key here is to look up all the artillery, tanks, and even super heavies, and note that they can all be keyed to Catachan. This means Harker can make a Baneblade re-roll ones to hit, or a handful of veteran squads, or even a cluster of dirt cheap mortar squads. He's a true force multiplier, with the ability to give the equivalence of Take Aim! To multiple squads, earning his points back easily with the 16% damage increase, even before he starts shooting Payback. Further, his rule is an aura, not an order, so can be stack with FRF!SRF! Or Bring it Down! For more fun. He's one of the true gems of the codex, as he can make anything better, as long as there is enough of it to justify his points.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Nork Deddog
Aside from Yarrick, Nork is the oldest named character in the book, going back to 2nd edition, and his role hasn't changed very much. He has the standard bodyguard type rule (if a character takes a wound within 3", on a 2+ Nork takes a mortal wound instead) that applies to any AM character. Since characters can hide from shooting, his bodyguarding does the most good in close combat... which works out, because he's pretty good in hand to hand. He had a standard Ogryn profile for just under three times the price and twice the wounds, but he gains the Huge Knife, which rocks AP-1 and Damage two. He can also make one of this attacks a Thunderous Headbutt at S8, Ap2, Damage d3. oh, and if he is slain, he can fight one more time, even if he fought already that phase. Since he's too expensive for gunline duty, I say pair him up with Straken or Yarrick to tank wounds. As long as he gets into combat, he will do some damage, and if he has somebody to help keep alive, he could break even on points.
Overall: semi-competitive

I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

Biophysical wrote:
I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

Your analysis works out reasonably well, but there are two problems. The first is that veterans aren't usually bought just for the special, for 20 points more you can tack on a BS3+ lascannon, which is utterly worth the points. The second is that the only real way a SWS won't be wiped out is if it's at or near maximum range, which means it's shooting three plasma shots at a 4+. That's not nothing, but I think that it really isn't massed fire. And yes, you can take more, but I'd be worried about multi-charges or split fire.

A SWS pays 15pts for a close range plasma hit, while a veteran squad pays 22, so the SWS is more efficient. But... a command squad only pays 9.8 points per BS3+ hit. Arguing for the SWS means arguing that you need a squad slightly more durable than a command squad, but less durable than a veteran squad. That's doable, but I think that the vets being able to take a lascannon (and thus making it a really good target for Take Aim!) tips the scales.

If your aim is to maximize the sheer number of plasma shots... I guess that works. I can add that to the write up.

I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

You are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

Biophysical wrote:
I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

I disagree strongly on two points
1) BS 3+ vs BS4+
2) The durability difference between 6 models and 4 models is really not that much.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
IYou are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

I could certainly be wrong, but every other aura buff simply states that it effects units within 6", while Straken's goes out of it 's way to say "All models in friendly CATACHAN units within 6" of Colonel..."

A plain reading can go either way, meaning either "all of the models within the units within 6"" or "all models within 6", that are part of friendly catachan units.."

The reason I read it narrowly is because all other buffs are written as applying directly to units, not to models. I hope I'm wrong, but from my standpoint, they wouldn't involve the term models unless the buff was model by model.

This might be a good question for YMDC.

 Polonius wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
IYou are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

I could certainly be wrong, but every other aura buff simply states that it effects units within 6", while Straken's goes out of it 's way to say "All models in friendly CATACHAN units within 6" of Colonel..."

A plain reading can go either way, meaning either "all of the models within the units within 6"" or "all models within 6", that are part of friendly catachan units.."

The reason I read it narrowly is because all other buffs are written as applying directly to units, not to models. I hope I'm wrong, but from my standpoint, they wouldn't involve the term models unless the buff was model by model.

This might be a good question for YMDC.

Perhaps it says 'models' because the intention is that each model in the unit gets to make an extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 20 attacks). If it just said that the unit could make an additional attack, then it would read as the entire unit getting just a single extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 11 attacks).

Biophysical wrote:I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

RenegadeKorps wrote:I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

Okay, thinking about this, I think they have a lot of synergy with Harker, and so I added the following paragraph:

However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk.

 vipoid wrote:


Perhaps it says 'models' because the intention is that each model in the unit gets to make an extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 20 attacks). If it just said that the unit could make an additional attack, then it would read as the entire unit getting just a single extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 11 attacks).

Exactly. While it makes sense to say that ''units re-roll to hit'' (for example), it doesn't make sense to say that ''units have +1 attack''.
See also the Ministorum priest. Same wording. The vast majority of players (if not everyone) understands the priest rule as affecting each model in the unit.
If it was about models, there would be no need to talk about ''units'', just like in the VGS rule for example.

Huh, the Straken rule is written the same as the Priest, so I guess that's not inconsistent. I'll change that.

Will analysis of forgeworld units be put up on here at some point as well.

As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Really, for the same point value I can get more powerful, precice shots in a smaller pacakage that might even get a cover save, just that it's also made of wet cardboard.

Still, I might end up putting most type of weapons in a Command Squad only due to the BS, maybe adding a vox to help the near-by officer. The SWS seems only good now for 'suicide'/counter charge flamer teams, as BS means nothing, and being assault weapons, you can always advance and fire without fearing any -1 penalty.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Why not use Ratlings though?

Nice read, can't wait for the next installment .

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Great topic Polonius, I very much appreciate the effort you put in it. I wish it will develop as the "official" 8th edition Astra Militarum discussion thread. On my side I will try to put as many meaningful contributions as I can.



Here are some simple probability results (mean number of damage) that I already put in the other 8th edition thread. It is now more complete with the addition of hot-shot volley gun. I think it has its place here to give some perspective about tempestus scions load-out and what you can expect from one of these powerful squads.


Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons. Give the sergeant a plasma pistol (in order to have him being simply useful, the hot-shot pistol is a total garbage). I count the damage done on the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, while they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot laser guns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.



vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.926
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.407
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.315
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.000
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are so much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Hot-shot volley guns are not that bad, they are on par with grenade launchers sometimes, and on some occasions clearly ahead.
Still, they do not justify their high price compared to plasma guns even on standard mode.
Plasma guns on overcharged mode with rerolls consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
Overall at current prices, I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control (which I will look at later).
Don't forget to sprinkle your army list with tempestor primes for these crucial rerolls of .

they really screwed up on plasma and imho they need to nerf plasma gun/pistols to str6 and str7 overcharged.(plasma cannons should stay str 7/str8, since they are much better balanced). Str 8 is the amount for heavy anti vehicles whereas str 6/7 is for light vehicles and monstrous creatures range. Str6 places the plasmagun on par w grenade launchers but rapid fire instead of frag option. Str 7 means it doesn't outclass melta in dealing with toughness 7/8 targets where melta shine.

Other than that increase all scions by 1ppm and he codex is really well balanced.

Hey Polonius, good work so far, nice to see a tactica tread that is accumulating a tactica. Can you redeem the mistake of other 8th army tactica threads and copy paste your sections into the OP, with any amendments for feedback received. It would be nice to evolve this into a self compiling article.

 vipoid wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Why not use Ratlings though?

It falls down to point value and utility; Ratlings cost the same as a Command Squad with sniper rifles and a vox, which with an officer really help his order range. Also, Ratlings are the specialized snipers of the Guard; you want a sniper unit get a pack of 5 Ratlings. This was more axed toward the SWS vs CmdSq discussion.

I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

 doc1234 wrote:
I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

 Polonius wrote:

Biophysical wrote:I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

RenegadeKorps wrote:I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

Okay, thinking about this, I think they have a lot of synergy with Harker, and so I added the following paragraph:

However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk.

Yeah, I had Harker in mind when I was thinking about SWS, and probably should have mentioned him. It's the "I want lots of plasma guns, but I want to make the other player work a little bit to kill them" option.

 doc1234 wrote:


Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

I've been running a 2x HF one with a Plasma CCS and commander inside to good effect at 1000 and 1500 points. At 2k, I'll probably run 2x plasma CCS inside. The 2x HF makes for a really nasty overwatch and you can sometimes force an overwatch on units attempting to charge the disembarked CCS depending on terrain/positioning.

I wouldn't run two though. My second Chimera is probably going to be made into a Salamander command vehicle when/if I ever end up buying a Baneblade.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, with regard to Chimeras, I'm wary of taking 2 HFs because they have a range of just 8", and the Chimera can't fire if anything charges it.

Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

tl;dr Imperial guard took it up in the @ss


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bluthusten wrote:
Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I hope you have something to reroll all those dices. 4d6 seems nice on paper, but once you roll them there isn't much at all. Better use 4 bullgryns or 3 bullgryns and a priest in a valk.