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 vipoid wrote:

I'm actually thinking the opposite - that smaller squads are better. They're more vulnerable in the sense that there are fewer normal dudes before your special weapons. At the same time, they're far less vulnerable to morale and also more easily overkilled (causing your opponent to waste firepower). What's more, whilst a large squad can split fire, it can't be in 2 places at once. I'd rather have 2 squads and have the option to split them up, should it prove advantageous.

There's two concepts going on here: Overkill and Leadership. I want to address each one separately.

Overkill: Any other edition and I'd agree with you, but I think anyone who is bringing sufficient firepower to take out 10 guys is going to split fire into two squads. I guess it might save you a guy or two here and there, but I'd rather force my opponent to have to get through 5 guys before they start to remove my special weapons than just 2 guys. Your method has merit for stuff like the vulkan megabolter, which is one weapon that levels squads, and so I don't think it can be split fired, but those situations are somewhat of an edge case as most of the time it's a lot of models firing a lot of individual weapons at me. That might just be my meta though.

Leadership: Your way helps limit casualties, but my way lets me salvage all of whatever's left with command points. I tend to go infantry heavy, so I have a hard time not winding up with at least 12 CP, at the start and usually have some left at the end of the game. I can afford to drop a couple in order to keep a couple plasma guns stick around longer.

Honestly, I much prefer the extra pistol shot, but each to his own.

This I'm on the fence about. The plasma pistol brings a lot to the party, but I honestly am not sure yet if it's actually necessary in a unit with that much plasma already, particularly given how good the hot shot is already. Sounds like heresy, I know. I'm still bracing for plasma to get knee-jerked to be way more expensive or something, honestly. Like it was typoed and was supposed to be 17 points or something. It just feels too good to be true.

Yeah, that is a good reason - especially with Primes being pretty costly (although each one you take gives you access to a valuable command squad, so there's that at least). At the same time, 5-man squads are probably going to be less reliant on orders in the first place.

That's a valid point with the command squads, though I don't know if I like them that much. Don't get me wrong, they're amazing, and I know they're amazing. I just like having ablative wounds for my special weapons (as if that wasn't obvious enough from my attitude toward overkill).

I just accept that if I'm playing IG, I'm going second.

I hear you there. Really, I think I just need to get over it.

 daedalus wrote:

Overkill: Any other edition and I'd agree with you, but I think anyone who is bringing sufficient firepower to take out 10 guys is going to split fire into two squads. I guess it might save you a guy or two here and there, but I'd rather force my opponent to have to get through 5 guys before they start to remove my special weapons than just 2 guys. Your method has merit for stuff like the vulkan megabolter, which is one weapon that levels squads, and so I don't think it can be split fired, but those situations are somewhat of an edge case as most of the time it's a lot of models firing a lot of individual weapons at me. That might just be my meta though.

But if they've got the firepower to reliably take out 10 guys, then whether or not the squad is split is entirely irrelevant. Those men are dead either way.

However, in my experience, most players will hesitate to split fire between two squads like that - they usually prefer to kill one entirely rather than risking leaving both alive. And indeed, all it takes is for one load of shots to roll well and the other badly, and one squad will be left alive (whereas if they'd been together, the excess shots from the half that rolled well would have killed more).

 daedalus wrote:

Leadership: Your way helps limit casualties, but my way lets me salvage all of whatever's left with command points. I tend to go infantry heavy, so I have a hard time not winding up with at least 12 CP, at the start and usually have some left at the end of the game. I can afford to drop a couple in order to keep a couple plasma guns stick around longer.

The thing is though, I don't see my method as being any worse in this regard. If your 10-man squad has been reduced to just 2 plasmagunners, then the extra meat shields were irrelevant anyway.

 daedalus wrote:

This I'm on the fence about. The plasma pistol brings a lot to the party, but I honestly am not sure yet if it's actually necessary in a unit with that much plasma already, particularly given how good the hot shot is already. Sounds like heresy, I know. I'm still bracing for plasma to get knee-jerked to be way more expensive or something, honestly. Like it was typoed and was supposed to be 17 points or something. It just feels too good to be true.

I really hope not.

In any case, what I like most about the Plasma Pistol is its range. 6" on the Hot Shot Laspistol is just too short for me (though I appreciate this is irelevant in the comparison between squad sizes).

 daedalus wrote:

That's a valid point with the command squads, though I don't know if I like them that much. Don't get me wrong, they're amazing, and I know they're amazing. I just like having ablative wounds for my special weapons (as if that wasn't obvious enough from my attitude toward overkill).

Normally, I'd agree. However, I think what makes the Command Squad different is:
- Their low cost
- Their ability to land within rapid-fire range of an enemy and open up

This makes them completely disposable, whilst also all but guaranteeing that they'll get a free turn of shooting before anything can shoot them back. The point is, with the firepower they bring on the turn they come down, they can frequently make their points back in a single shooting phase. Frankly, if they survive after that then I'm happy to call it a bonus. Otherwise, they did their job.

 daedalus wrote:
I hear you there. Really, I think I just need to get over it.

It comes from playing Infantry Guard. Because characters count as separate drops (and I have no end of CCs and Commissars), I'll often have at least twice as many drops as my opponent - sometimes three times as many. I love guard.

 vipoid wrote:

But if they've got the firepower to reliably take out 10 guys, then whether or not the squad is split is entirely irrelevant. Those men are dead either way.

However, in my experience, most players will hesitate to split fire between two squads like that - they usually prefer to kill one entirely rather than risking leaving both alive. And indeed, all it takes is for one load of shots to roll well and the other badly, and one squad will be left alive (whereas if they'd been together, the excess shots from the half that rolled well would have killed more).

The reason why I think the way I do is (napkin math warning) 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma, and a... I dunno, a missile launcher, comes to about 5.3 average dead scions. You lose 1 sarge, 2 plasmaguns, 2 lasgunners. I lose 5 lasgunners and maybe a Sarge. I don't know if a Tac squad is even a reasonable unit to even expect out of a SM player anymore, as my group doesn't have a lot of them and the couple we do have are pretty unconventional, but that's leaves you all your plasma, and leaves the unit a credible enough threat to force the opponent to have to focus fire you dead.

My more common meta is GK, which means about 4.5 dead scions from a 5 man strike squad at 12". Then I laugh and remove the squad unless they dedicate at least two of their more expensive units killing my one cheaper unit. If I can keep that going, I've already won the game.

I don't disagree that you're insulated far better against the probability spikes than I am. I'm saying that they can't just casually off my guys without leaving a credible enough threat behind. Maybe it's just playstyle, but I feel like guard stuff is cheap enough that it's awesome if they have to focus fire a single squad dead, because I have plenty more where that came from.

The thing is though, I don't see my method as being any worse in this regard. If your 10-man squad has been reduced to just 2 plasmagunners, then the extra meat shields were irrelevant anyway.

But if it's reduced to 3 (or 4) plasmagunners, then I'm winning. I don't think your way is "worse". I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way to go here. I think it's playstyle and meta at this point more than anything.

In any case, what I like most about the Plasma Pistol is its range. 6" on the Hot Shot Laspistol is just too short for me (though I appreciate this is irelevant in the comparison between squad sizes).

Yeah, I think that the plasma pistol is probably still even better than even the FRFSRFed lasgun for the points. I'll certainly concede that the pistol makes your method wins out in this regard hands down.

Normally, I'd agree. However, I think what makes the Command Squad different is:
- Their low cost
- Their ability to land within rapid-fire range of an enemy and open up

This makes them completely disposable, whilst also all but guaranteeing that they'll get a free turn of shooting before anything can shoot them back. The point is, with the firepower they bring on the turn they come down, they can frequently make their points back in a single shooting phase. Frankly, if they survive after that then I'm happy to call it a bonus. Otherwise, they did their job.

Yeah. I might load one up with meltaguns so that I can make them useful and something that has to be killed without needing orders to keep them from doing themselves in. I just don't like the idea of spamming them, particularly post-faq. I don't think it's so cost effective now, and I don't need or want THAT many Primes.

It comes from playing Infantry Guard. Because characters count as separate drops (and I have no end of CCs and Commissars), I'll often have at least twice as many drops as my opponent - sometimes three times as many. I love guard.

Man, the support characters are really the killer, I think. And I normally run infantry squads and toss a priest in there too. Basically have to concede if it's a kill points game. So many babysitters.

 daedalus wrote:

The reason why I think the way I do is (napkin math warning) 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma, and a... I dunno, a missile launcher, comes to about 5.3 average dead scions. You lose 1 sarge, 2 plasmaguns, 2 lasgunners. I lose 5 lasgunners and maybe a Sarge. I don't know if a Tac squad is even a reasonable unit to even expect out of a SM player anymore, as my group doesn't have a lot of them and the couple we do have are pretty unconventional, but that's leaves you all your plasma, and leaves the unit a credible enough threat to force the opponent to have to focus fire you dead.

My more common meta is GK, which means about 4.5 dead scions from a 5 man strike squad at 12". Then I laugh and remove the squad unless they dedicate at least two of their more expensive units killing my one cheaper unit. If I can keep that going, I've already won the game.

I don't disagree that you're insulated far better against the probability spikes than I am. I'm saying that they can't just casually off my guys without leaving a credible enough threat behind. Maybe it's just playstyle, but I feel like guard stuff is cheap enough that it's awesome if they have to focus fire a single squad dead, because I have plenty more where that came from.

I do get where you're coming from. As you say, maybe we just favour different playstyles. I tend to favour minimum squad sizes wherever possible, as I've always been a fan of MSU-type armies.

 daedalus wrote:

But if it's reduced to 3 (or 4) plasmagunners, then I'm winning. I don't think your way is "worse". I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way to go here. I think it's playstyle and meta at this point more than anything.

Yeah, I'd agree. I think both types have their merits.

 daedalus wrote:

Yeah, I think that the plasma pistol is probably still even better than even the FRFSRFed lasgun for the points. I'll certainly concede that the pistol makes your method wins out in this regard hands down.

It also means there's a reason to keep the sergeant alive beyond his Ld.

 daedalus wrote:

Yeah. I might load one up with meltaguns so that I can make them useful and something that has to be killed without needing orders to keep them from doing themselves in. I just don't like the idea of spamming them, particularly post-faq. I don't think it's so cost effective now, and I don't need or want THAT many Primes.

I was actually going to use meltas in a MT list I made recently, but I found that the small difference in points was a real pain to find, so I went with plasma instead.

I agree that it's not as cost effective anymore, though if I'm making a MT list I'm probably going to have a few Primes around, so I might as well make use of their Command Squads when I have the option.

 daedalus wrote:

Man, the support characters are really the killer, I think. And I normally run infantry squads and toss a priest in there too. Basically have to concede if it's a kill points game. So many babysitters.

Yeah, Kill Points are a real pain. The best we can do, I think, is either try to table our opponents or else try to gradually pull back our characters as our front-line units are destroyed, so that they're not exposed.

Ultimately though, the biggest thing deciding my squad layouts from now on though is what combination of models I have laying around at home.

I use kasrkin and the hostile environment cadians as my Scions (they're stormtroopers, damnit!) so getting more models at this point is.. not cost effective.

 vipoid wrote:

Yeah, Kill Points are a real pain. The best we can do, I think, is either try to table our opponents or else try to gradually pull back our characters as our front-line units are destroyed, so that they're not exposed.

With my friends, I just laugh and say "you win, roll mission again." They don't care much for kill points either, I think, so it works out well enough.. It got funny last time because I "lost" two or three games in a row this way before we even put a miniature out on the table. We'll probably start going back to it eventually, but I haven't even played through all the mission types yet, let alone enough to start trying to optimize my list for the occasional kill points game.

I'm on vacation and don't have a keyboard, but I thought I'd check in on this thread. My view on squad size is that I want to use orders as much as possible, which means big squads, especially with plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard.

The one point bolter is worth mentioning, and I'll include that. I forget because I use old metal models and I'm not going to convert them to carry bolters!

sumi808 wrote:I like your thinking, thats why im only taking 1 conscript squad and making the rest all normal squads.

Once commissars/priests get assassinated the conscripts are really weak, poor leadership etc... I think running 3-5 commanders and 3-5 commissars is the way to go for infantry hoard guard imho - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731549.page#9471943

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.

That sounds like a lot, but plenty of armies run 300pts or more worth of characters, ours are just cheap.

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

Talizvar wrote:Very good job.
Yes, wall of text.
But, I... read... every... word.

And that's the highest compliment I could receive

 Polonius wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard.

The one point bolter is worth mentioning, and I'll include that. I forget because I use old metal models and I'm not going to convert them to carry bolters!

I got on board when Catachan plastics just hit, so conversions ar e easy. A couple editions ago, all my LTs for Bolters, now they're sergeants.

I'll go for 2 10-man Squads cause i take 2 Primes (for 2 Comand-Squads) then i have 4 Orders for 4 Squads.

When you go full Scion - MSU then you struggle with orders

Excellent thread, looking forward to rest of it.

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

How are volley guns? I have a command squad outfitted with them

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

 SHUPPET wrote:

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

This basicly. Also this is how AoS was when points dropped as thier wasn't much of a reason to just be all one faction. Currently the only reason to stick to one faction is to stack up buffs.

When the codexes come out they will provide bonuses for being all one faction. In AoS the battletomes being all 1 faction you get access to faction relics, faction special abilities, and faction spells, and you only get this if your WHOLE army is that one faction.

Looking at matched play now you pick a keyword for you army that the whole thing shares, and i think the faction wide buffs provided by the codexes will be based on that. Though interestingly GSC armies will retain thier faction if they are all GSC with 1 AM detachment as thier keyword is ignored for army faction.

Thiers a lot of the "imbalanced," "overpowered," etc and the games only been out for a few weeks. The meta doesn't even exist yet so thier's really not much to compare any of this too as everyone has like 10-20 games under thier belt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

what are DA/BA/SW giving up that GSC aren't. You can add AM units directly into any of your detachments or add an AM detachment to your army similar to GSC. Thier's literally no difference....

Fast Attack

Okay, so it's come to this. While never a highlight of the IG codex (aside from the fabled 5th edition codex with 130pts vendettas), fast attack is simply meh in 8th edition. Unfortunately, few armies are as suited to fill out a Brigade Detachment and roll deep with command points than AM. Which means we need to pay a three fast attack unit tax. Unlike the rest of the codex, which is full of units that are cheap and effective, Fast Attack is home to the middling and the surprisingly expensive.

Scout Sentinels
Starting here, the sentinels had a smooth transition into 8th, going from AV10 with two HP (super fragile) to T5, 4+ save, with six wounds. That is unequivocally a more durable platform. Of course, with only heavy weapons and BS4+, they can't really move and shoot all that well. And, really, the only weapons that are remotely decent are the lascannon and the heavy flamer. The mutilaser, as thoroughly discussed, is a pea shooter, and the autocannon gives up too much to the lascannon for only five points. One thing to keep in mind is that a sentinel with lascannon is actually five poitns less than an infantry squad with a lascannon, and while it doesn't have the lasguns, it has only four less wounds with higher toughness and better save. I'm not suggesting you buy three lascannon sentinels and use their scout move to burrow in terrain and stand and shoot... but that's not the worst way to fill these slots.

Another decent approach is to aggressive, with a heavy flamer, and use the model to get in the way. At movement 9”, it has a 17” range with the heavy flamer, and it can fight a very, very little bit. The key here is to flame and/or assault either light support troops, or transports to prevent them from moving as directly as they'd like. The Scout Sentinel gets to move 9”, but not within 9” of enemy units, prior to the first turn, which allows you to either find a shooting perch, or threaten a flank.

Another trick with these is if the enemy has deep strikers, you can use their scout move to extend the 9” bubble they cannot land in. Sure, they can land and shoot/charge the sentinels, but that's probably a win! The chainsaw is fun, but with only one attack at WS4+, the odds of even forcing a save is pretty low, but you when it causes a failed save you'll feel pretty good. Interestingly, these do not degrade, meaning they fight just as well at one wound left as with six. They also explode, causing a mortal wound within 3” on a 6+. All told... if you really want cheap fast attack that actually do something... grab three of these with heavy flamers, and cram them into your opponent, forcing him to deal with them instead of the real meat of your army. You will do some wounds with the heavy flamer, you might tie up a shooting unit for a turn in assault, and you might do a mortal wound when it inevitably dies!
Overall: semi-competitive (but necessary!)

Armored Sentinel
Basically a sentinel that trades the scout move for a 3+ save, but costs five points more. I wish I could be clever here, but this unit assumes you want to buy a really expensive heavy weapon that can't take orders. To be fair, it can take a plasma cannon alongside the other options, which is somehow the same price as an autocannon... which actually is really dumb, and if you are going to buy these things, I'd run them with plasma cannons at a cool 55ps per. Outside of range, I'd rather take a special weapon squad with three plasma guns for ten points less, more shots, and more mobility. Still, if you want reasonably durable lascannons, this is pretty good place to get them. If you have enough heavy armor in your list so the enemy isn't sending lascannons at them, they'll likely survive quite a while. Still, this is a reach for a unit that really doesn't offer much.
Overall: Casual

Hellhounds
A bit of an interesting choice, as the three species of genus hellhound are actually different model choices, but share the keyword Hellhound. The Hellhound has a single wound on the basic Chimera, and also is no faster, in a change from prior editions. The three versions are differentiated by their turret weapon. The basic Hellhound has an inferno cannon, which has a healthy 16” range, heavy d6, always hits, with Strength 6, Ap-1, and damage 2. Compared to the old template, the hellhound simply isn't going to burn down hordes anymore. But.. with AP1 and D2, this is your best killer of two wound units like bikes, Crisis suits, or even storm shield terminators. All of this is only 3 points more than a heavy flamer, on a chassis two points cheaper than the chimera. So, a hellhound with inferno cannon/heavy flamer is only 1 pt more than a chimera, while also rocking an extra wound. This gives you an idea how much GW values transport capacity in pointing out units. The other quirk of the basic hound from hell is that it explodes on a 4+, dealing d3 mortal wounds to all unit within 6”, so keep this guy out of your lines.

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.
Finally, for the nihilist in all of us, the Bane Wolf provides the chem cannon, a heavy flamer with Ap-3 which wounds everything but vehicles on a 2+. This is somehow actually cheaper than a heavy flamer, it's natural pairing, giving you a nasty close range tank for 105 points. Save a command point to reroll the die for number of shots, but this could melt a squad of heavy infantry. Unlike in prior editions, when a vehicle that could shoot that short range of a gun would likely be wrecked in close combat the next turn, the Bane Wolf can actually survive some combat, but of course, will not be able to shoot if it falls back. Still, this is not an expensive vehicle compared to the rest of the game, and can easily win it's points back with a good shot.
As pretty capable medium tanks, the hellhound is arguably the strongest choice for Fast Attack, but you need to make sure you have enough other armor in the list that they don't get shot up turn one. Mix three of them with some chimeras, a superheavy, pask, or even artillery to swamp your opponent with armor.
Overall: competitive

Rough Riders
The proud recipient of multiple buffs, Rough Riders are, if not good, at least capable of acting as shock troops. The hunting lance is no S+2, AP-2, with d3 damage, which is great, but with no bonus for charging, models only get one lance attack a turn. Instead, they each get one chainsword attack, and another trampling hoofs attack. In short, if they charge, they get the lance and two basic swings, and otherwise, they just get the two swings. They are also now two wounds a piece, which combined with the increased durability of 5+ saves, makes them harder to shift than previously.
In one of the never ending pendulum swings, Rough Riders once again can take up to two special weapons instead of hunting lances, including the omnipresent plasma gun. They also gained a nifty outflanking rule that allows them to deploy within 7” of the board edge, but more than 9” from the enemy. However, they do not have any buffs to charging, making this a bit risky.
So, there are basically two main approaches. First, you go minimum squad with two plasmas or flamers, and you use them as a highly mobile, slightly durable special weapon squad. The second is that you go bigger with all lances, and you actually try to kill some folk. A full squad charging a rhino will lay three or four wounds on it, and if it does fall back, it will allow the riders to charge again. At 50pts for a minimum squad, and 100 for a max, they provide some options for either counter-charge or flanking that an otherwise all infantry army might lack. If you're going for an all infantry brigade, I'd look hard at the horsemen, then you deny your opponent a good target for his heavy weapons. They wont' buzzsaw through tough units, but they will do work. Also, if you can at all get a priest near them, that doubles their hunting lance attacks.
Overall: competitive

Flyers
A tragic victim of one of the few times a codex unit moved to Forgeworld only, the loss of the Vendetta leave the valkyrie as the only flyer left. Since Troops is a short section, I thought I'll talk about the old warbird next.

Valkyrie
As discussed above comparing a hellhound to a chimera, 8th edition 40k places a tangible and high point value on transport capacity. [to recap: a hellhound w/ heavy flamer costs only one more point than a dual heavy flamer chimera, making transport 12 roughly equal to an extra wound and swapping a heavy flamer for the inferno cannon.] It's not surprising that the Valkyrie went up in cost, but that's not all that's suprrising. First, it's shockingly durable. With the near standard T7 and 3+ save, the Valkyrie is a pretty standard medium vehicle, until you see 14 wounds (four more than a chimera!). Also, while moving as a flyer, the Valkyrie is a hard to hit, with all shooting having a -1 penalty. Flyers do not have base rules, but instead join three rules. The first is hard to hit, while the second is airborne, which prevents it from being charged by non-fly units, or fighting or being fought by those units that cannot fly. Finally, supersonic is a simplified version of 6th7th edition flier movement. You pivot up to 90 degrees, move 20-45”, with no further pivots. This movement is limiting if you're firing, but as a transport, it works pretty well. Further, the Valkyrie has the Hover Jet rule, which allows it to ignore many of the flier rules and just move normally up to 20”, while being hit as normal.
So, it's a tanky little craft, but what does it do? It's not the shooting, I can tell you that right now. It has the same weapon options as always. In the nose, you can pick between the virtually worthless multilaser, or a lascannon. (Guess which one I think you should pick.) On the wings, hellstrike missiles are no longer limited in how many times they can fire, but simply get one Krak missile shot per turn, with longer range and rolling two dice, pick the highest for damage. Multiple Rocket Pods are basically heavy bolters with d6 shots. You can also add two heavy bolters if you'd like. Not unlike the chimera, you have the option between weapons that don't do much, and spending even more for weapons that still only do a little bit. In my book, the lascannon easily eclipses the multi-laser for only 10pts more. Even hitting on 5s, a lascannon shot can change a game in a way three multi-laser shots never will. Under the wings, the hellstrikes are slightly cheaper, but are really just fancy krak missles. However, if the krak missile hits, it will do some nice damage. Both wing missiles are overcosted, and I'd honestly rather have neither at that price. Still, aside from heavy bolters, there's a 12 point total difference between the cheapest loadout (ML/hellstrikes) and the most effective (LC/MRPs). I say spend the points. Speaking of points, on top of the points in weapons, the valkyrie chassis runs you well over a hundred points, with street legal birds clocking between 160-172 points. This is well above a chimera, for not that much more fire power, but a substantial bump in speed and durability.
This makes the Valkyrie the better transport, but what makes it really great is the return of the old Grav-Chut insertion rule. As before, it allows models to disembark at any point in the move, but more than 9” from enemy models. Further, if the Valkyrie moves more than 20”, you lose a model on a d6 roll of 1. However, because the units disembark, and are not deployed, they can move as normal during their turn. If you have a unit that wants to get close in, this is the transport for it! Meltas, flamers, and even shotguns like being able to ditch out 9” from the enemy and walk to within 3”. For units like shake n bake veterans (flamerx3, heavy flamer, shotguns, power first), two special weapons squads, or most cheesily three command squads, the valkyrie really puts them where they want to be. Just don't go looking up flyer transports for other armies, or you might get depressed.
Overall: competitive

mmimzie wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

This basicly. Also this is how AoS was when points dropped as thier wasn't much of a reason to just be all one faction. Currently the only reason to stick to one faction is to stack up buffs.

When the codexes come out they will provide bonuses for being all one faction. In AoS the battletomes being all 1 faction you get access to faction relics, faction special abilities, and faction spells, and you only get this if your WHOLE army is that one faction.

Looking at matched play now you pick a keyword for you army that the whole thing shares, and i think the faction wide buffs provided by the codexes will be based on that. Though interestingly GSC armies will retain thier faction if they are all GSC with 1 AM detachment as thier keyword is ignored for army faction.

Thiers a lot of the "imbalanced," "overpowered," etc and the games only been out for a few weeks. The meta doesn't even exist yet so thier's really not much to compare any of this too as everyone has like 10-20 games under thier belt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

what are DA/BA/SW giving up that GSC aren't. You can add AM units directly into any of your detachments or add an AM detachment to your army similar to GSC. Thier's literally no difference....

Well for instanced DA don't get centurions, sternguard, etc etc etc. And unlike AoS gsc explicitly get to keep their faction...

 Polonius wrote:
Fast Attack

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

SU-152 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Fast Attack

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

then experiment

personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

 sumi808 wrote:
MAGNETS!
Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM
then experiment
personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

It is the only logical thing to do with the varying rules that came out that would radically change the bad weapon to good and Vice-versa.
Used a fair number of autocannon turrets (LR) so I could fire the sponsons too, was good for aircraft as well.
Happy I did that for most items.
Bad news? Had MANY old Chimeras and the standard weapon was the multi-laser.... so another way to kill the old models!
I thought there was a campaign against battle-cannons for a while there.

 Talizvar wrote:

 sumi808 wrote:
MAGNETS!
Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM
then experiment
personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

It is the only logical thing to do with the varying rules that came out that would radically change the bad weapon to good and Vice-versa.
Used a fair number of autocannon turrets (LR) so I could fire the sponsons too, was good for aircraft as well.
Happy I did that for most items.
Bad news? Had MANY old Chimeras and the standard weapon was the multi-laser.... so another way to kill the old models!
I thought there was a campaign against battle-cannons for a while there.

You can still make it work. Snip the gun off, drill hole, attach magnet, and do the same, maybe with a quick plasticard shroud around the other side of the gun like what the new chimera has. I haven't done any yet but I spent some time starting at it the other day. I bet I could do all 5 or 6 of mine in one evening

 Polonius wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites?

I will be covering them, but not along with the other Elites. I'm working on the Elites now, and it's already a pretty bloated section. I'll probably talk about them in a follow up, along with knights, inquisition, and any other high use imperial allies.

Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

Guys please for the love of all that is good use spoiler tags

 sumi808 wrote:

SU-152 wrote:


What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

I magnetized the hull weapons for my 5th edition Hellhounds, but the turret weapons have a nice plug, and you don't even need to magnetize. they fit nicely just by pressure, and if that fails, use a dab of rubber cement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites?

I will be covering them, but not along with the other Elites. I'm working on the Elites now, and it's already a pretty bloated section. I'll probably talk about them in a follow up, along with knights, inquisition, and any other high use imperial allies.

Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

to give a peek ahead at my plans for the next few updates:
- Heavy Support (I haven't even started this, so probably not until late this week)
-Lords of War (Eight very similar super heavies, I'll enjoy a relatively quick turn around)
-Selected FW units (Hopefully as much as possible. Depending on my energy, I might split the superheavies into their own discussion)
-Traditional Allies, including assassins, Sisters, and inquisition (possibly Grey Knights if I'm really feeling it). this likely won't be unit by unit, but broader with the highlights discussed
-Imperial Knights
-Modern Allies, including Admech, Talons, and Space Marines (even more sketched out)
-Krieg/Elysian list discussion (Honestly, I'm waiting for consensus on this to settle down a bit as well)

I have some more ideas for what are, essentially, blog posts or articles, that I might write up if I'm still feeling it. Things like how to physically start an IG army, a discussion of the various models over the years, third party companies and other resources for bits and full models, etc. Obviously, this will all be months worth of work, and I can't promise anything beyond the AM units in Index 2.

to quickly answer you question: all of the assassins are good, and at under 100 points, with more wounds, the protection of the character rule, and the ability to "deep strike", they can truly act as assassins. The eversor has a 78% chance of charging after appearing thanks to 3d6 charge (keep in mind CP rerolls), making him able to simply lock down any backfield shooting units the enemy decides to bring. The callidus can be super annoying, while the Vindicaire is both super durable and able to reliably (if not swiftly) put wounds on enemy characters. The Culexus really prefers to be fighting near psykers, so depending on your area, he could be solid. As for knights, they're not as nasty as they were in 7th, although a full army can still be quite good. They are very good in close combat, with the ability to make 12 dreadnought level attacks, or 4 titan level attacks, but they also have a 5++ invulnerable in shooting, with no move and shoot penalty. Most critically, they can fall back, and still shoot and charge, meaning as long as they are alive, they really can't be locked up, and and will grind down the enemy. My current though is to take a Warden with Stormspear pod (essentially 3 Krak missles for 45 points).

I used 2 Scout Sentinels with autcannons, one armoured with a lascannon, since that's what they're made as. Autocannons is weaker, but still a shot more to trade that off.

It only happend wth 'nids, but a Sentinel would have some skill holding up a unit in melee as well, the cheap chainsaw upgrade making it an almost certainty you'll kill off one infantry model per turn (armour save roll suceeded not taken into account). Either they got to break off to keep moving and shooting (usually the next turn) or they grind the melee until one or the other dies.

Keeping in mind of course, don't think you'll survive with actual melee oriented untis.

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems .

the trade off for taking gsc is you can't take the rest of the imperium as allies. And let's be honest gsc even with a Tyranid detachment doesn't hold a candle to the vast amount of models and choices within the imperium. Assassins, guilliman, Celestine, knights, every marine variant etc etc can never be taken in a gsc list.

So ya sure purestrain genestealers are a fun assault unit that pairs well with IG however that's honestly no worse then the rest of the imperium.

gungo wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems .

the trade off for taking gsc is you can't take the rest of the imperium as allies. And let's be honest gsc even with a Tyranid detachment doesn't hold a candle to the vast amount of models and choices within the imperium. Assassins, guilliman, Celestine, knights, every marine variant etc etc can never be taken in a gsc list.

So ya sure purestrain genestealers are a fun assault unit that pairs well with IG however that's honestly no worse then the rest of the imperium.

Sorta. If I want to play imperium I get the full range of imperium units but my stratagems and warlord traits will be limited to the basic rule book (whether stratagems matter enough for that to matter we don't know). If I want to play AM I get the AM units and starts. If I play gsc I get gsc units and starts and all AM units. So unless the AM strats are overwhelmingly good (or the gsc ones overwhelmingly bad) there doesn't seem to be a cost to gsc essentially being a much bigger unit list AM army. It doesn't make sense to me because with the noncodex chapter marines we can see a elegant solution. The DA/BA/SW give up certain core marine units in order to bring their special units in, I don't get why gsc aren't the same way.

I fail to see how that's any different to having a space marine detachment with their own strategems. It's really not any different. It's almost universally better allying in other imperium units, considering the only great unit in gsc is the purestrain stealers w patriarch.