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With the new rules allowing models that are not in LOS getting killed, can weapons keep firing if declared firing target was legal even though LOS is lost to weapons from the same squad firing earlier?

An example:
My squad of neophytes with 8 autoguns and 2 grenade launchers is opening up on a unit of guardsmen. When I declare the shooting 8 guardsmen are out of LOS and 2 are in it, the same 2 are in LOS of my entire squad, and all are within range. I roll for the autoguns first and score 2 wounds, my opponent assigns these to the 2 models to witch I have LOS. Its now turn for the grenade launchers to open up, but my opponent points out that these models now lack LOS. Had i rolled all dice at the same time I would have been able to wound models out of LOS (or rather, force my opponent to allocate them there).

As I read the rules it should be allowed as the check for LOS and range is in step 2 of the shooting sequence and once a target is locked in it stays a valid target (i.e. I can shoot as long as the unit have models remaining), after you assigned targets for all the models no more LOS checks are done, did my opponent mentally play 7th ed?

Best regards
Gremmer

No, once you pick a target unit it's locked in regardless of LOS because you only check at that stage if it's a legal target. All shooting from a unit will be legal until you finish shooting.

The 4. Resolve Attacks step is broken into substeps, but you never go back to the previous main steps so it's never checked again regardless of how many casualties the enemy unit takes.

All shooting happens simultaneously.

You cant shoot half your guns in the squad, resolve those wounds and then shoot the other half.

you resolve hits
then wounds
then saves
Period

Echo0455 wrote:
All shooting happens simultaneously.

You cant shoot half your guns in the squad, resolve those wounds and then shoot the other half.

This is incorrect. You actually do shoot some weapons, then completely resolve them, then shoot others, if the weapons are different. You just check LOS and range once.

So, you would shoot bolters first, hit, wound, save and remove casualties, then move on to plasma guns, etc. Shooting only happens simultaneously if everyone is shooting the same weapon.

 puma713 wrote:

Echo0455 wrote:
All shooting happens simultaneously.

You cant shoot half your guns in the squad, resolve those wounds and then shoot the other half.

This is incorrect. You actually do shoot some weapons, then completely resolve them, then shoot others. You just check LOS and range once.

Where does it say that a single squad firing resolves its separate weapons at different times?

Whether its different ballistic, weapon profiles or what have you. All to hit roles are shot at the same time lore wise. There is no initiative step in shooting back in 7th and certainly not in 8th.

??

The only time i could see this being resolved at different times is if you have your squad splitfire to two different groups. Sorry, i have to say you are incorrect in saying i am incorrect.

Echo0455 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

Echo0455 wrote:
All shooting happens simultaneously.

You cant shoot half your guns in the squad, resolve those wounds and then shoot the other half.

This is incorrect. You actually do shoot some weapons, then completely resolve them, then shoot others. You just check LOS and range once.

Where does it say that a single squad firing resolves its separate weapons at different times?

Whether its different ballistic, weapon profiles or what have you. All to hit roles are shot at the same time lore wise. There is no initiative step in shooting back in 7th or 8th.

??

The only time i could see this being resolved is if you have your squad splitfire to two different groups. Sorry, i have to see you are incorrect in saying i am incorrect.

Go read pages 184 and 185 of the main rulebook. In their shooting example, the marines shoot and resolve all of their bolter fire first, then the sergeant shoots and resolves his grenade. Also, if you want the actual rule, it is on page 179, under Fast Dice Rolling.

Thanks for the rules,

Does say you choose and resolve each weapon one at a time, only thing you have to do is declare where each weapon is shooting prior to rolls.

Exalted and my apologies =)

Echo0455 wrote:
Thanks for the rules,

Does say you choose and resolve each weapon one at a time, only thing you have to do is declare where each weapon is shooting prior to rolls.

Exalted and my apologies =)

No need to apologize. We're all learning the new Edition together.

Rolls don't have to be simultaneous, you can do them individually. I think the LOS issue need's to be FAQ'd too, in the last document there was:

'When determining whether a model benefits from
cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on
or within terrain, or just the model making a particular
saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially
on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive
the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover. '

So you start getting cover benefit as soon as the exposed models are dead. I would think this would apply to LOS too.

promithius wrote:
Rolls don't have to be simultaneous, you can do them individually. I think the LOS issue need's to be FAQ'd too, in the last document there was:

'When determining whether a model benefits from
cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on
or within terrain, or just the model making a particular
saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially
on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive
the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover. '

So you start getting cover benefit as soon as the exposed models are dead. I would think this would apply to LOS too.

But LOS is checked once, when you select your target. The saves (which would encompass your cover) is checked each time you need to make a save. Your save can improve halfway through the sequence. Your LOS and range remain unchanged.

Shooting itself is "simultaneous" as in if your flamer was in range and los when its attacks were allocated it still fires and hits the unit.

Shooting resolution(or wound allallocation) is sequential; as in killing models outside of cover will/can grant later models cover bonuses.

You can only choose targets in range and los, and you allocate all weapon's targets before any dice are rolled. Once targets are chosen the attacks happen unless the target no longer exists; even then they probably still happen with no way to damahe anything so we don't bother rolling.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Shooting itself is "simultaneous" as in if your flamer was in range and los when its attacks were allocated it still fires and hits the unit.

Shooting resolution(or wound allallocation) is sequential; as in killing models outside of cover will/can grant later models cover bonuses.

You can only choose targets in range and los, and you allocate all weapon's targets before any dice are rolled. Once targets are chosen the attacks happen unless the target no longer exists; even then they probably still happen with no way to damahe anything so we don't bother rolling.

I am asking because I don't understand--you are picking models individually in a unit to roll for? Meaning your opponent is assigning shots to specific models (for instance, the visible part of a unit partially behind LOS blocking building) as opposed to an entire unit or units?

My understanding is that if part of a unit is visible, you can happily blast away at that unit until you're out of shots or they are out of bodies, regardless of target model positioning.

Breakdown:

First you select your shooting unit.

Then steps 2 and 3, choose target and choose weapon have very blurred lines but end with a very clear process.

Before any models in your shooting unit fire any shots each model and each weapon that they are firing chooses a target that the firing model can see and is within the weapon's range.

Once that is done for every weapon in the unit you start rolling to hits to wounds and the oponent saves and resolves in any order of your choosing. These shots are simultaneous as far as the ability to hit out of range and LOS, but sequential as far as lost midels in the enemy unit can grant their unit cover bonuses by dying until the whole unit is in cover.

It's interesting. The RAW for LOS seem to go completely against the spirit of the rules for cover as expressed in the Designers Notes. One thing that can be said for absolute certain is that once the models that are in LOS are gone, and the unit "gains benefit of cover" as per the designer's notes, even if they are not "in" said cover, they are definitely all more than 50% obscured by it, and will absolutely, without question get a save modifier from it at a bare minimum.

I posted a question about this on the 40k Facebook page twice, and their silence has been conspicuous. Not even a reply like usual to say "good question. We'll forward it to the rules team, blah blah blah"

This needs to be FAQ'd plain and simple.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, shooting is absolutely not simultaneous. It says shots are resolved one at a time in two places in the shooting rules, and that it is simultaneous exactly zero times that I can see. It makes an exception for "rolling" weapons with exactly the same progile together, but it does not say that means those shots are meant to be fired simultaneously. It goes on to say those same shots are to be allocated one at a time.

Why would this matter?
Both LoS and Cover don't affect ToHit sequence or any modifiers. Once you determined which weapons have range and LoS, you are free to shoot.
Cover modifier is applied to Save roll, which by the rules is resolved one at a time (with optional Fast Dice to speed things up), so you can roll for models outside of cover first and once they die roll for modified Save for rest of models in unit.

It's also important to consider that the ability to "target" a unit in step 2 is discussed in the context of declaring shooting attacks, not making them. It doesn't say that the enemy unit's status as a "target" is perpetual. If something ceases to meet the criteria for "targetting", does it cease to be a "target"? It's a legit question.

This whole thing is just one example of many, of rules that are sloppily written and unclear. I find it hard to believe this would not have come up in all the playtesting they claim they did. I think they playtested a lot of ideas and concepts, but I don't think the final copy of the rules we are using now was playtested, or even proofread at all.

 Weboflies wrote:
It's also important to consider that the ability to "target" a unit in step 2 is discussed in the context of declaring shooting attacks, not making them. It doesn't say that the enemy unit's status as a "target" is perpetual. If something ceases to meet the criteria for "targetting", does it cease to be a "target"? It's a legit question.

This whole thing is just one example of many, of rules that are sloppily written and unclear. I find it hard to believe this would not have come up in all the playtesting they claim they did. I think they playtested a lot of ideas and concepts, but I don't think the final copy of the rules we are using now was playtested, or even proofread at all.

Player may remove wounded models out of range and LoS, that's why target don't stop being target just because after firing bolters he is no loner visible to plasmagun.
Checking for being valid target happens at step 2 (for all weapons declared) - we are not allowed to come back to that step for that unit in the shooting sequence...

Yes except the rules don't say any of that. Step 2 instructs you to "choose targets", and because this is the first instance of the concept of targeting it outlines restrictions for that. It's not instucting you to "target" it's intructing you to choose targets. It doesn't say that this is the only point that those restrictions apply. In fact, this CAN'T be the only point that a unit's status as target is established, and then locked in permanently, or you wouldn't be able to split fire as it describes in step 3. Step 3 makes no mention of the restriction. Does that mean I can Choose a unit in LOS as the target of a Knight Titan, then in step 3 I can declare I will shoot at it with say, the Heavy Sttubber, and then declare that I will shoot the Battle Cannon at a unit that is completely out of sight because it's not step 2 anymore and the restriction only applies in step 2? Of course not. I mean, you could try to make that argument, but I'd just pack up my models and go home at that point.

2. Choose Targets
(...) In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.(...)

3. Choose Ranged Weapon
(...)If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. (...)
In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.(...)

At step 2 you choose different units to be targets (as long they are in range, and LoS - for appropriate weapons).
At step 3 you must declare whch weapon will shoot at what previously declared target.
Once all the weapons have been declared you may move to step 4. Resolve attacks.

Do you see - that at this point all weapons have LoS and Range? Here at step 4 you roll dices, and at this point from shooting player perspective does not matter if some models will disappear during rolling dices.

It doesn't say you have to split fire between the units declared and targeted in step 2. It also makes no LOS restriction for the "other unit" you're allowed to shoot,. It doesn't require that unit to be in range. It doen't require you to "target" the other unit you're shooting.

So unless you want to play a game where a second weapon lets you shoot anything on the table regardless of LOS or range, You have to concede that "targetting" does not lock in at step 2. The requirements are assumed to in force after that.

These rules are a mess. They need FAQ.

The cover modifier rules on pg 2 in the designer's notes are a good window into their intentions I think, but as always, they will eventually have the final say...

...or maybe not bother, lol.

 Weboflies wrote:
It doesn't say you have to split fire between the units declared and targeted in step 2. It also makes no LOS restriction for the "other unit" you're allowed to shoot,. It doesn't require that unit to be in range. It doen't require you to "target" the other unit you're shooting.

Seriously?
If declaring targets in Step 2 is not for 'targets' in Step 3 then I think you may also don't care and start firing with totally different your own unit as nothing forces you to use those selected in Step 1...

We have:
1. Select your unit do resolve fight phase,
2. Select enemy units to be targets,
3. Declare what weapon shoot at what,
4. Roll the dices.

Rules are simple, streamlined and intuitive, I really don't know what do you expect?

Step 3 doesn't say "targets" though. It just says "shoot at a different enemy unit. It doesn't say that the unit you're shooting needs to be a unit that was chosen in step2, so unless you want to open it up to all kind of silly stuff you have to apply the restrictions again separately in step 3. If The restrictions on what's a "target" are enforceable separately in step 3 then why are they not at any point in the game? Where does it say the designation of what's a target locks in in turn 2? It doesn't.

 Weboflies wrote:
Step 3 doesn't say "targets" though. It just says "shoot at a different enemy unit. It doesn't say that the unit you're shooting needs to be a unit that was chosen in step2, so unless you want to open it up to all kind of silly stuff you have to apply the restrictions again separately in step 3. If The restrictions on what's a "target" are enforceable separately in step 3 then why are they not at any point in the game? Where does it say the designation of what's a target locks in in turn 2? It doesn't.

You understand that you get that "different enemy unit" totally out of context?

Step 2.
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks.(...)

Emphasis mine. I really don't understand how at Step 3 you can ignore what was ordered in Step 2.

Anyway I think you overcomplicating this wording way to much

Sure ask GW FAQ team how it should be played

As I said in the breakdown step 2 and 3 are blurred you choose which weapons and/on which models will target which units in step 3; but you choose target(s), checking los and range, in step 2. They are together 1 step.

Or you could perform the steps as RAW without a problem: step 2 choose your targets in range and los(longest range weapon in the shooting unit allows for a target choice), then allocate weapons to the chosen target(s) (where range may not matter).

promithius wrote:
Rolls don't have to be simultaneous, you can do them individually. I think the LOS issue need's to be FAQ'd too, in the last document there was:

'When determining whether a model benefits from
cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on
or within terrain, or just the model making a particular
saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially
on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive
the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover. '

So you start getting cover benefit as soon as the exposed models are dead. I would think this would apply to LOS too.

Bingo. We have a winner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 danyboy wrote:
Why would this matter?
Both LoS and Cover don't affect ToHit sequence or any modifiers. Once you determined which weapons have range and LoS, you are free to shoot.
Cover modifier is applied to Save roll, which by the rules is resolved one at a time (with optional Fast Dice to speed things up), so you can roll for models outside of cover first and once they die roll for modified Save for rest of models in unit.

And the save role for being out of sight is always successful.
Fact is the two visible dudes are just super dead.
How could nyy models out of los ever be targeted in the first place.
Only visible models are potential targets.
I hope we are not back in the era of the marines squad that runs man after man from hidden behind a wall to the hole in the wall just to be sure that the orks big shootahs have enough bodies to sink their bullets into...
that.

 Weboflies wrote:
It's interesting. The RAW for LOS seem to go completely against the spirit of the rules for cover as expressed in the Designers Notes. One thing that can be said for absolute certain is that once the models that are in LOS are gone, and the unit "gains benefit of cover" as per the designer's notes, even if they are not "in" said cover, they are definitely all more than 50% obscured by it, and will absolutely, without question get a save modifier from it at a bare minimum.

Where in the FAQ does it say that? The only thing I can find is about a specific piece of terrain that provides cover as long as you're close to it.

I can't find a general case of "out of LoS = cover".

@jeff according to rules:
If my 9 boltgun guys and 1 plasmagun see one model of your five man squad.
I roll for boltguns first lets say its 8 hits and 5 wounds.
You fail first save, you remove the model I see, but you roll normal save for other models, you don't auto pass save for other models!
Even if later i shot and wound with plasmagun you must roll for save even if plasma don't see the target at that point.

That's why I said it does not matter - you check LoS at Step 2. At step 4 it's rolling.

Also - obscured models don't benefit from cover just for being obscured.

 danyboy wrote:
@jeff according to rules:
If my 9 boltgun guys and 1 plasmagun see one model of your five man squad.
I roll for boltguns first lets say its 8 hits and 5 wounds.
You fail first save, you remove the model I see, but you roll normal save for other models, you don't auto pass save for other models!
Even if later i shot and wound with plasmagun you must roll for save even if plasma don't see the target at that point.

That's why I said it does not matter - you check LoS at Step 2. At step 4 it's rolling.

Also - obscured models don't benefit from cover just for being obscured.

I know you keep saying that, but the rules don't.

That's not RAW, it's RAI. Where does it say that targeting locks in turn two, and those restrictions don't apply at any other time? How is it that the rules in step 3 work and make sense if that's the case?

Slightly off topic question though you guys are on the page that its relevent.

Markerlights

if each shot is resolved individually and in order

do previous markerlight hits apply to the next shot in the same unit?

the first markerlight adding a rerolls of 1s

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Where in the FAQ does it say that? The only thing I can find is about a specific piece of terrain that provides cover as long as you're close to it.

I can't find a general case of "out of LoS = cover".

That's refererring to pg2. The part about units partially in cover. If a unit is now out of LOS then it's impossible for it to not be more than 50% obscured by the cover that's blocking the LOS, so therefore when it "gains the benefit of cover" (pg 2, question 4 paragraph 3), it must get a save mod, at an absolute minimum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, it doesn't matter what I say, or what you guys say, or even what the rules say, because the 40k facebook people have twice now confirmed that this issue has bedn submitted to the rules Devs for FAQ, and they contradict RAW with FAQ all the time, so there's no knowing what they'll say when they chime in on it. As per "The Most Important Rule", if you can't agree, roll for it. That's all that can done with this ATM.