Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Random thought I had..

Which one is more powerful fighter in fluff. Both strategic thinking and combat ability.

Chapter masters are of course devastating, however from a few HH books the Lord commander eleidon, sigmound, abaddon has his moments, sevantor duels to levels few can match, the first captains are first among legions not 1000.

The question is. Which school wins., the new or the old OG veterans.

Calgar, Dante or Draigo would have them all for breakfast.
Maybe they could take Pedro.

This is too heavily dependent on the individual. It is not possible to make such broad generalisations and still make sense.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
This is too heavily dependent on the individual. It is not possible to make such broad generalisations and still make sense.

I’ll agree with this.

They are IMHO in the same class. Some will be better then others, particularly in their own specializations. Really depends on the individual.

And the writers, but that goes without saying when comparing guys from the fluff.

I want to say first captains cause they are so much better characters but first captains won't have much more than 200 years experience, only slightly above par warhead and little experience fighting trans humans.

Chapter masters on the other hand will have 1000+ years experience, the best equipment in a chapters armoury and will have fought trans humans on multiple occasions.

Gotta be the chapter masters.

Taffy17 wrote:
I want to say first captains cause they are so much better characters but first captains won't have much more than 200 years experience, only slightly above par warhead and little experience fighting trans humans.

Chapter masters on the other hand will have 1000+ years experience, the best equipment in a chapters armoury and will have fought trans humans on multiple occasions.

Gotta be the chapter masters.

cchapter masters having 1000 years experiance is proably not common, Dante is about 1000 years old and is noted as being one of the oldest living marines. Logan Grimnar and Calgar are proably 5-600 years of age.
that said it's very much variable. there is evidance, for example, that Gabrial Angelos, of the Blood Ravens may be quite young for a Marine, given his biological father was apparently alive during the events of Cyrene.

I thought Dante was 2000? Maybe I was doubling up, either way most chapters masters will be older than any marine alive during the heresy I think,

Excluding stasis Dante has spent more time fighting for the imperium than almost any primarch nvm a first captain

Dante is about 1500 years old. You can figure out his actual birth year from info in his new novel, but I don't have my copy nearby right now.

OT: First captain was once the pinnacle of rank within the Astartes, but that has changed since the introduction of the Codex. The first captains that you listed all served before the current iteration of chapter masters really existed. Raldoron was the first captain of the Blood Angels legion, and he became their first chapter master. Sigismund became a chapter master, even though it wasn't of the first founding. Had the Sons of Horus remained loyal I have no doubt that Abaddon would have been a chapter master.

EDIT: Lexicanum has been updated with said information on Dante, he was born 447.M40

I think Logan has 700 years experience. Maybe 600. He noted ad being older than average I believe.
There's another space wolf older than him. But a wolf priest I believe.

And yes, the First captians first real marine on marine is Heresey. Well bar Wolves...

True. Chapter masters seem to be winning this.
Though. The First Captains seem to have alot better stories, unlike some 40k, there is no faultless first captain..
Sigmound ends up adverseral at times with Dorn, and loses favour at times.
Elidon can be over confident.
Abaddon has faults. All of them has there faults.

 jhe90 wrote:
I think Logan has 700 years experience. Maybe 600. He noted ad being older than average I believe.
There's another space wolf older than him. But a wolf priest I believe.

And yes, the First captians first real marine on marine is Heresey. Well bar Wolves...

True. Chapter masters seem to be winning this.
Though. The First Captains seem to have alot better stories, unlike some 40k, there is no faultless first captain..
Sigmound ends up adverseral at times with Dorn, and loses favour at times.
Elidon can be over confident.
Abaddon has faults. All of them has there faults.

thats because the first captains are characters first, and minis second, if at all. whereas in 40k it's the reverse. How many HH books have Sigmound, Elidon or Abaddon appered in? I suspect, if you factor in their bit apperances, short stories etc, they've had a LOT more novel time then say... Calgar.

Also I suspect there is a little more... quality control on the HH fiction then general 40k. the HH fiction is really trying to tell an over arching story, presumably the writers communicate, so that when bob writes gulliman there is minimal conflicit with tim writing it"

I think the 40k novels have less of that, and most 40k novels consist of eaither unique characters developed by the author or, when dealing with eistablished characters are mostly bolter porn. I'm honestly hoping that 8th edition, and the moving storyline gives us a chance to see 40k fiction developed in a better line. I think if the various chapter masters etc where developed throughout some novels, people'd develop new views on them etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
I think Logan has 700 years experience. Maybe 600. He noted ad being older than average I believe.
There's another space wolf older than him. But a wolf priest I believe.

And yes, the First captians first real marine on marine is Heresey. Well bar Wolves...

True. Chapter masters seem to be winning this.
Though. The First Captains seem to have alot better stories, unlike some 40k, there is no faultless first captain..
Sigmound ends up adverseral at times with Dorn, and loses favour at times.
Elidon can be over confident.
Abaddon has faults. All of them has there faults.

thats because the first captains are characters first, and minis second, if at all. whereas in 40k it's the reverse. How many HH books have Sigmound, Elidon or Abaddon appered in? I suspect, if you factor in their bit apperances, short stories etc, they've had a LOT more novel time then say... Calgar.

Also I suspect there is a little more... quality control on the HH fiction then general 40k. the HH fiction is really trying to tell an over arching story, presumably the writers communicate, so that when bob writes gulliman there is minimal conflicit with tim writing it"

I think the 40k novels have less of that, and most 40k novels consist of eaither unique characters developed by the author or, when dealing with eistablished characters are mostly bolter porn. I'm honestly hoping that 8th edition, and the moving storyline gives us a chance to see 40k fiction developed in a better line. I think if the various chapter masters etc where developed throughout some novels, people'd develop new views on them etc.

True. A certain Calgar. With his I can lift Pylons, punch out a Avatar chapter master.
Draigo, Mary sue god of the impirium.

Yeah, doing something more akin for the 30k books with a overarching story, maybe some kinda "bible" that tv serris use to plot out the story over so many "seasons or books" .
But that also means breaking there stagnant universe abit too...

the big question is how much of a story arc is gonna happen post dark imperium. do it right and yuou could start to develop the characters, granted I think even one shot stories done right could have impact. Imagine if we find out that Kaldor Dragio's returning from the warp is the ULTIMATE tease. and he's always put into a situation where he's able to save a friend, stop something horriable from happening etc... but JUST before he can, he's swept back into the warp. the man is thus cursed to suffer defeat after devestating defeat, snatchef rrom the jaws of victory over and over and over for an eternity.

BrianDavion wrote:
the big question is how much of a story arc is gonna happen post dark imperium. do it right and yuou could start to develop the characters, granted I think even one shot stories done right could have impact. Imagine if we find out that Kaldor Dragio's returning from the warp is the ULTIMATE tease. and he's always put into a situation where he's able to save a friend, stop something horriable from happening etc... but JUST before he can, he's swept back into the warp. the man is thus cursed to suffer defeat after devestating defeat, snatchef rrom the jaws of victory over and over and over for an eternity.

Yeah and how the likes of say, Imperial fists react to a Primarch not there own return.
How Calgar reacts to how the fact he is still active command but not longer a lord unto self like other chapter masters.

Things like that, snapshots on the universe.

I'd argue First Captain's in the Traitor Legions have the upperhand.

Not only do they have centuries more experience, but specificially a great deal more experience in fighting their erstwhile Brother Astartes. And that counts for a lot - even a single exploited drop in guard can spell curtains.

 jhe90 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the big question is how much of a story arc is gonna happen post dark imperium. do it right and yuou could start to develop the characters, granted I think even one shot stories done right could have impact. Imagine if we find out that Kaldor Dragio's returning from the warp is the ULTIMATE tease. and he's always put into a situation where he's able to save a friend, stop something horriable from happening etc... but JUST before he can, he's swept back into the warp. the man is thus cursed to suffer defeat after devestating defeat, snatchef rrom the jaws of victory over and over and over for an eternity.

Yeah and how the likes of say, Imperial fists react to a Primarch not there own return.
How Calgar reacts to how the fact he is still active command but not longer a lord unto self like other chapter masters.

Things like that, snapshots on the universe.

well we've got a few glimpses of Calgar in Dark Imperium, (he's honestly IMHO suffering from a bit of an Inferiority complex combined with a case of "never meet your heros")

as for the Imperial Fists we know that they where one of the leading chapters in the Indomatus Crusade (which is funny, everyone thinks it was Ultramarine focused, but outside the Primaris Marines, the leading contributing chapter was Imp Fists )

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the big question is how much of a story arc is gonna happen post dark imperium. do it right and yuou could start to develop the characters, granted I think even one shot stories done right could have impact. Imagine if we find out that Kaldor Dragio's returning from the warp is the ULTIMATE tease. and he's always put into a situation where he's able to save a friend, stop something horriable from happening etc... but JUST before he can, he's swept back into the warp. the man is thus cursed to suffer defeat after devestating defeat, snatchef rrom the jaws of victory over and over and over for an eternity.

Yeah and how the likes of say, Imperial fists react to a Primarch not there own return.
How Calgar reacts to how the fact he is still active command but not longer a lord unto self like other chapter masters.

Things like that, snapshots on the universe.

well we've got a few glimpses of Calgar in Dark Imperium, (he's honestly IMHO suffering from a bit of an Inferiority complex combined with a case of "never meet your heros")

as for the Imperial Fists we know that they where one of the leading chapters in the Indomatus Crusade (which is funny, everyone thinks it was Ultramarine focused, but outside the Primaris Marines, the leading contributing chapter was Imp Fists )

He was boss of all Ultramar. Lord of own destiny.
Then the big boss came back and kept him on but took his job. Rough day for anyone.

Yeah. I probbly should get the book if I can find it a tad cheaper... Maybe if there's a discount on amazon or something.

First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

Forgot sevantor.
Him and sigmoind were pretty equal in rating as deadly as catchan.

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

I hope you're not referring to the Warzone Fenris incident.
Grimnar managed to hit Magnus with the axe Morkai - a reforged daemon forged weapon - Papa Khorne actually enableded the axe to damage Magnus and lit up the damage to send him back to the Warp. Grimnar for his part got backhanded over a snowbluff - Terminator Armour and all - and only managed to climb up in time to see Magnus get sucked back into the Warp.

The Daemon Princes tally still stands.
40k gets my vote.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. non UltramarineChapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

Fixed that for you

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

Thats simply not true, a legion master leads a legion and has seen more fighting in those 200 years than any current chapter master would have, not to mention that a legion is by orders of magnitude larger than a chapter, the logistics alone would be staggering, then moving all those units to the relative warzones, making sure they are up to fighting strength against enemies that the imperium had no concept on how to fight and still overcoming them, the 40k ones have live on the shoulders of giants,

The idea that any 40k character is on par with sigismund is laughable to say the least, both in crunch and fluff, Sigismund eats them all for breakfast, but he is an extreme example, Corswain, Sevatar, Kharn, Amit, Amon, and more are all (fluff wise) stupidly more powerful than any of the 40k chapter masters, Kharn has clearly beaten bloodthirsters in his time, killing an avatar is hardly an achievement these days and multiple characters have beaten deamon prince.

 Formosa wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

Thats simply not true, a legion master leads a legion and has seen more fighting in those 200 years than any current chapter master would have, not to mention that a legion is by orders of magnitude larger than a chapter, the logistics alone would be staggering, then moving all those units to the relative warzones, making sure they are up to fighting strength against enemies that the imperium had no concept on how to fight and still overcoming them, the 40k ones have live on the shoulders of giants,

The idea that any 40k character is on par with sigismund is laughable to say the least, both in crunch and fluff, Sigismund eats them all for breakfast, but he is an extreme example, Corswain, Sevatar, Kharn, Amit, Amon, and more are all (fluff wise) stupidly more powerful than any of the 40k chapter masters, Kharn has clearly beaten bloodthirsters in his time, killing an avatar is hardly an achievement these days and multiple characters have beaten deamon prince.

First captains have had full command before though, Elidon at istavern 3, Fortix at phall I think, and more.
They have been tasked with whole solo comand of the legion, and large task forces..

Yeah the 30k marines had no book of advice to fall back on..
They had tp wrote that book. They lost, they won, they nearly where wiped by orks before. But they had to truely face the unknown.

Lastly, sogmound etc have had no real equals. He took down some 20 traitor champions in terras seige.
Maulybe Dante migght hold own being so old.

 Formosa wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

Thats simply not true, a legion master leads a legion and has seen more fighting in those 200 years than any current chapter master would have,

That is really about the amount of experience that one needs to have to be even considered for the position of Chapter Master in 40k. Even the least experienced of Chapter Masters is going to be at least as experienced as the most experienced of First Captains that had been with the Great Crusade since the beginning. And most First Captains weren't, they joined at a much later date. Dante and Grimnar between the two of them have more experience and have faced more foes than all First Captains of all legions put together.

 Formosa wrote:
not to mention that a legion is by orders of magnitude larger than a chapter, the logistics alone would be staggering, then moving all those units to the relative warzones, making sure they are up to fighting strength against enemies that the imperium had no concept on how to fight and still overcoming them, the 40k ones have live on the shoulders of giants,

The First Captains had virtually unlimited resources, and a huge support staff to help them take care of logistics and everything. Chapter Masters have to win their victories with highly limited resources and without all the aid and support structures the Legions got. That is much more impressive.

 Formosa wrote:
The idea that any 40k character is on par with sigismund is laughable to say the least, both in crunch and fluff, Sigismund eats them all for breakfast, but he is an extreme example,

Fluffwise, definitely not. Crunchwise they are in different systems, so it is hard to compare. And even if it weren't, it'd be irrelevant as rules and stats are created for game balance and do not represent the actual fluff.

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain, Sevatar, Kharn, Amit, Amon, and more are all (fluff wise) stupidly more powerful than any of the 40k chapter masters, Kharn has clearly beaten bloodthirsters in his time, killing an avatar is hardly an achievement these days and multiple characters have beaten deamon prince.

Yes, multiple characters have beaten daemon princes and killed Avatars, and many of them were Chapter Masters, but none of them were First Captains. No First Captain of a legion has ever managed that. Kharn did, but Kharn hasn't been First Captain for millennia. His most impressive feats are all from long after the World Eaters legion was destroyed.
Meanwhile, virtually every well-known Chapter Master can boast of such feats.

As a whole, the Legions were vastly more powerful than the 40k Chapters. But individually, the Space Marines of 40k are better warriors. 40k Space Marines are highly experienced and have ridiculously high recruitment standards. The average 30k Space Marine on the other hand is mere mass production They had relatively low recruitment standards because they had to churn out massive numbers of new Space Marines, and new Space Marines got little in the way of training before being sent to die on the battlefields of the Horus Heresy. Most of the Great Crusade era Space Marines died early in the Heresy. The average Space Marine back in the HH had only a few months of experience, if he was lucky.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
First Captains would be much much more experienced than a mere chapter master when it comes to large scale warfare and logistics, a legion is made up of many chapter/companies, each having a chapter master, the best of these chapter masters would then become the first captain or legion master, if your talking combat power, then i would put my money on pretty much all of the named first captains or legion master, Corswain, Sigismund and Kharn can easy beat chapter masters (fluff).

A 40k-era Chapter Master is going to have more experience. Chapter Masters like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar have many hundreds of years of experience. Considering their greater experience and feats, I'd actually put my money on those guys over the likes of 30k Sigismund or Kharn. Also, when talking not just about combat prowess (which isn't the purpose of Chapter Masters or First Captains) but rather about skill in commanding forces, none of the First Captains in the Heresy was even close to being as old and experienced as the named Chapter Masters of 40k. And what is more, a First Captain will have had no real experience of bearing the full responsibility. Certainly, they conducted independent operations, but their Primarch was always making the big calls and final decisions. They could always fall back on their Primarchs. Chapter Masters in 40k have no such luxury. They have to do things all on their own, and with much more limited resources.


Really, it depends on the individual, but if the individuals we are talking about are Dante, Calgar and Grimnar vs Sigismund, Corswain and Kharn, my money is solidly on the 40k guys. The vast difference in experience is insurmountable, I feel.
In terms of combat prowess, just look at their feats. Dante once cut a freaking Bloodthirster in two. Calgar punched an Avatar of Khaine knockout. Grimnar has defeated daemon princes in single combat and even bested Magnus the Red.
Some of the first captains, like Sigismund, Sevatar or Kharn, also have some pretty crazy feats, but nothing on that level.

Thats simply not true, a legion master leads a legion and has seen more fighting in those 200 years than any current chapter master would have,

That is really about the amount of experience that one needs to have to be even considered for the position of Chapter Master in 40k. Even the least experienced of Chapter Masters is going to be at least as experienced as the most experienced of First Captains that had been with the Great Crusade since the beginning. And most First Captains weren't, they joined at a much later date. Dante and Grimnar between the two of them have more experience and have faced more foes than all First Captains of all legions put together.

 Formosa wrote:
not to mention that a legion is by orders of magnitude larger than a chapter, the logistics alone would be staggering, then moving all those units to the relative warzones, making sure they are up to fighting strength against enemies that the imperium had no concept on how to fight and still overcoming them, the 40k ones have live on the shoulders of giants,

The First Captains had virtually unlimited resources, and a huge support staff to help them take care of logistics and everything. Chapter Masters have to win their victories with highly limited resources and without all the aid and support structures the Legions got. That is much more impressive.

 Formosa wrote:
The idea that any 40k character is on par with sigismund is laughable to say the least, both in crunch and fluff, Sigismund eats them all for breakfast, but he is an extreme example,

Fluffwise, definitely not. Crunchwise they are in different systems, so it is hard to compare. And even if it weren't, it'd be irrelevant as rules and stats are created for game balance and do not represent the actual fluff.

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain, Sevatar, Kharn, Amit, Amon, and more are all (fluff wise) stupidly more powerful than any of the 40k chapter masters, Kharn has clearly beaten bloodthirsters in his time, killing an avatar is hardly an achievement these days and multiple characters have beaten deamon prince.

Yes, multiple characters have beaten daemon princes and killed Avatars, and many of them were Chapter Masters, but none of them were First Captains. No First Captain of a legion has ever managed that. Kharn did, but Kharn hasn't been First Captain for millennia. His most impressive feats are all from long after the World Eaters legion was destroyed.
Meanwhile, virtually every well-known Chapter Master can boast of such feats.

As a whole, the Legions were vastly more powerful than the 40k Chapters. But individually, the Space Marines of 40k are better warriors. 40k Space Marines are highly experienced and have ridiculously high recruitment standards. The average 30k Space Marine on the other hand is mere mass production They had relatively low recruitment standards because they had to churn out massive numbers of new Space Marines, and new Space Marines got little in the way of training before being sent to die on the battlefields of the Horus Heresy. Most of the Great Crusade era Space Marines died early in the Heresy. The average Space Marine back in the HH had only a few months of experience, if he was lucky.

Aye HH was a meat grinder.

However one point.
The Legion master have no such feat. As they never where in that time when those , deamon, avatarq, pylon opportunities to be badass where less regular and less likely to happen to them.
They predate most of the major chaos stuff before HH etc.
When they reach battle for Terra the daemon kills might start racking up.

Not 100% sure as I haven't read the books in a while, but didn't the Dark Angels use the term Chapter Master for the overall commander of a Crusade Fleet, and below them ranked company captains during the HH?

If it is correct, then in the Dark Angels at least the Chapter Master was superior to even the First Captain, either in experience terms or perhaps tactical acumen.

And I know that fluff has evolved recently, but don't the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines consider Ragnar Blackmane and Agemman as the successors to Grimnar and Calgar?

Might show that at least in those Chapters First Captain is just a rank.

Grimmor commands the First company of space wolves, the great wolf company. Kings guard is also his company, and also was the largest at some 2-300 strong.
Ragnars was about second.

They also have the stratigic assets like the lone wolves, dread etc.

So he Chapter master/First Captain combined.

Ragnar comes in at full battle captain, so space wolves come in surprisingly normal once you go down abit.

 jhe90 wrote:


Aye HH was a meat grinder.

However one point.
The Legion master have no such feat. As they never where in that time when those , deamon, avatarq, pylon opportunities to be badass where less regular and less likely to happen to them.
They predate most of the major chaos stuff before HH etc.
When they reach battle for Terra the daemon kills might start racking up.

Its not Daemons as far as we know, but we do atleast know that during the Siege of Terra Sigismund was doing none stop duels with champions.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


Aye HH was a meat grinder.

However one point.
The Legion master have no such feat. As they never where in that time when those , deamon, avatarq, pylon opportunities to be badass where less regular and less likely to happen to them.
They predate most of the major chaos stuff before HH etc.
When they reach battle for Terra the daemon kills might start racking up.

Its not Daemons as far as we know, but we do atleast know that during the Siege of Terra Sigismund was doing none stop duels with champions.

Yeah, Sangingous named him death champion or something similar. High praise from a primarch who not too shabby in CC

Generally, I'd guess First Captains might be roughly on par with Special Character Chapter Master.
Either that or between special character CMs and nameless CMs.

That point besides, First Captains and Chapter Masters live in very different times, and each is probably better in his own niche.

Sure, a First Captain might be practiced in ordering legions around... However, that skill might not be so useful in 40k where there is a much stronger political element in acquiring and directing allied resources.

Case in point:

The Crimson Sabers found they couldn't simply order people around. They failed to realise in 40k there are a lot of warzones. This means if someone doesn't like you they can just decided to dedicate their resources somewhere else.