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The Yncarne can't charge the turn he is placed with Inevitable Death. If I kill a unit in the Psychic Phase (say with Smite) and place him where this unit was, is there anything to stop him from casting Word of The Phoenix and choosing Fight if he wants to, thus getting him either a 6" pseudo charge (pile in and consolidate) which can place him in combat ready for the Fight Phase or, if he is within 4" actually getting him to fight straight away? Relevant rules are Inevitable Death and Word of the Phoenix in Xenos 1.

Looks like it. The rules of the Fight Phase are in no way charging or related to the action of charging.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to check other people's interpretations. Thanks!

I don't believe you can. Being able to fight in the fight phase requires 1 of 2 things:

1) you charged this turn
2) you are within 1" of an enemy unit

The Yncarne can fulfill neither of those requirements the turn that it comes in, so you cannot pile in. In order to get the 3" pile, that's what you need to do/has done that turn. You don't get to pile first.

That being said, it's a fair question if "fight as if it were the fight phase" means "become an eligible unit to fight"

Personally, I don't think it gives you permission to override the requirements for what an eligible unit in the fight phase is, but I can see why you might think that it does. As is the way of 8th, "would make a great FAQ"

You can't pile in or consolidate if you don't start within 1" of an enemy, so no. "Fight as if it were the fight phase" means that he gets to sit on his butt and do nothing, because that's what he would do in the fight phase if he was not within 1" of an enemy.

In the fight phase sequence in the Rulebook, the first bullet point talks about choosing a unit to fight with, while the following points talk about how to do it.
You could therefore argue that "fight as in the fight phase" actually refers to steps 2-6, allowing you to pile-in even if you're not within 1".

I think it needs an FAQ though (it's already in Yakface's list).

Another way to get into combat without charging is to perform a heroic intervention, which is not explicitly forbidden here. I thinks we also need an FAQ to address characters performing heroic intervention when they're not allowed to charge.

I see where the controversy is and agree it is unclear. With Heroic Intervention can you do it if the enemy does not declare any charges?

Solaris wrote:
You can't pile in or consolidate if you don't start within 1" of an enemy, so no. "Fight as if it were the fight phase" means that he gets to sit on his butt and do nothing, because that's what he would do in the fight phase if he was not within 1" of an enemy.

This is just incoherent. It's not "do what you would ordinarily do if it were the fight phase", it's "fight as if it were the fight phase". A unit that never got the opportunity to make a Pile In move has not fought and so you're just very obviously not doing what the Soulburst clearly tells you you can do. A fight is clearly defined as steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence and there's absolutely nothing saying that a unit must be within 1" to fight.

Really this is much more clearly legal than something like using the Chaos psychic power Warp Time on a unit that just arrived from Reserves. At least there the Reinforcements rules actually say that the unit isn't allowed to move for the rest of the turn. There is no rule saying that certain units can't fight. Step 1 of the Fight Sequence (which doesn't even apply here) is only giving permission to some units and saying nothing about the others.

Drager wrote:
I see where the controversy is and agree it is unclear. With Heroic Intervention can you do it if the enemy does not declare any charges?

"All" does not generally imply "some" when quantity is unknown, so I think probably you can. It's also clearly legal to perform a Heroic Intervention to attack a unit on one side of the table when your opponent's only charger is on the other side of the table, and it'd be really weird if whether a character could intervene depended on what was going on 48" away.

Just use the soulburst ability to charge and you get the same effect.

You can't charge the turn he appears though Fragile.

Drager wrote:I see where the controversy is and agree it is unclear. With Heroic Intervention can you do it if the enemy does not declare any charges?

After all enemy charges, you may do this if within 3" of an enemy model. I do this all the time and it is awesome.. HOWEVER that is if he has chargers.. My interpretation (could be wrong) is if he charged nothing you will not meet the requirement. But Heroic Intervention is totally a thing the turn he pops in.

Fragile wrote:Just use the soulburst ability to charge and you get the same effect.

I think its pretty clear the intention still stands (for example from all the mess of 7th) If you can't do an action that turn.. you can't do a soulburst action that turn. Maybe im wrong.. but that is how I play it.

Fragile wrote:
Just use the soulburst ability to charge and you get the same effect.

Soul-burst does not change the fact that you can not charge. It just says charge as if it was your charge phase (which you can't charge in). Yncarne is kinda unuseable in this edition - unless your opponents just walk up and let you charge him - the fact that he can't start on the board makes him pretty bad.

I've actually found him to be really really good. He mostly comes in on their turn when they destroy one of my units then is good to charge. I'm just thinking of other ways to use him.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Drager wrote:I see where the controversy is and agree it is unclear. With Heroic Intervention can you do it if the enemy does not declare any charges?

After all enemy charges, you may do this if within 3" of an enemy model. I do this all the time and it is awesome.. HOWEVER that is if he has chargers.. My interpretation (could be wrong) is if he charged nothing you will not meet the requirement. But Heroic Intervention is totally a thing the turn he pops in.

Fragile wrote:Just use the soulburst ability to charge and you get the same effect.

I think its pretty clear the intention still stands (for example from all the mess of 7th) If you can't do an action that turn.. you can't do a soulburst action that turn. Maybe im wrong.. but that is how I play it.

And you cant shoot or charge or fight in the Psychic phase, etc... Special rule here are no different than before, they allow you to do things that you normally could not. The Yncarne cannot charge the turn it arrives because of its rule, however SFD give permission to do so by its special rule. So if you manage to kill something and bring him on board and then kill something and let him SFD, more power to you. Otherwise any restriction in the book overrides SFD.

I think the Yncarne no charge rule is more specific than the SfD rule, just as SfD is more specific than the rule book phase rules.

Fragile wrote:
And you cant shoot or charge or fight in the Psychic phase, etc... Special rule here are no different than before, they allow you to do things that you normally could not. The Yncarne cannot charge the turn it arrives because of its rule, however SFD give permission to do so by its special rule. So if you manage to kill something and bring him on board and then kill something and let him SFD, more power to you. Otherwise any restriction in the book overrides SFD.

I think you meant SfD overrides any restriction? Anyway this was not the case in 7th edition (clearly FAQd), and I think its pretty clear that it wont work now. Stated above "charge as if it were the charge phase".. well you can't charge that turn.. so not an option to use. By all means.. move again.. shoot (dont have weapons so can't), fight (can't becuase not in combat)... etc

So if a unit advances, then you say they cannot shoot from SFD that turn?

Fragile wrote:
So if a unit advances, then you say they cannot shoot from SFD that turn?

That is correct.

If the unit advances and the weapons are not "assault" they would not be able to shoot those weapons. Because they shoot like its that turns shooting phase... and they can't do it in the shooting phase!

Ok, then to you disallow a unit to shoot Assault weapons after advancing because that unit cannot be chosen to shoot?

Fragile wrote:
Ok, then to you disallow a unit to shoot Assault weapons after advancing because that unit cannot be chosen to shoot?

This seems like a silly objection. Yes, as written the Assault weapons rule is broken. So you should probably read all rules about who's allowed to shoot as applying to models rather than to units -- models that advance can't fire, even if their units can technically be chosen to shoot or something. Models with assault weapons can fire even if they advanced. This has nothing to do with Soulburst, though. Soulburst only brings in a Warp Time type interaction where the special rule says you can do something but there's another fairly specific restriction which also applies which would prevent the action.

Fragile wrote:
Ok, then to you disallow a unit to shoot Assault weapons after advancing because that unit cannot be chosen to shoot?

if you advance.. and then SfD happens.. you may not fire any weapons that you were not able too in your shooting phase. Assault profile weapons are fine because you are allowed to fire them at a -1 to hit penalty.

Dionys, I am aware of that. I'm seeing how far down the rabbit hole these "restrictions" vs "permissions" go in this argument.

Grizzyzz, I was not talking about SFD shooting. I am speaking of regular shooting. You choose a unit to shoot but cannot choose one that Advanced in Step 1. Assault weapons say you can fire them if you advanced, but that is in Step 3. How do you resolve the special rule of the Assault weapon over the restriction of the Shooting phase, particularly when they are not in a chronological order to allow you to bypass?

Dionysodorus wrote:

Solaris wrote:
You can't pile in or consolidate if you don't start within 1" of an enemy, so no. "Fight as if it were the fight phase" means that he gets to sit on his butt and do nothing, because that's what he would do in the fight phase if he was not within 1" of an enemy.

This is just incoherent. It's not "do what you would ordinarily do if it were the fight phase", it's "fight as if it were the fight phase". A unit that never got the opportunity to make a Pile In move has not fought and so you're just very obviously not doing what the Soulburst clearly tells you you can do. A fight is clearly defined as steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence and there's absolutely nothing saying that a unit must be within 1" to fight.

Incoherent? Not at all. If you would not be eligible to fight in the fighting phase, you are not eligible to fight as if it were the fighting phase. Using this psychic power doesn't change that whatsoever.

Solaris wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Solaris wrote:
You can't pile in or consolidate if you don't start within 1" of an enemy, so no. "Fight as if it were the fight phase" means that he gets to sit on his butt and do nothing, because that's what he would do in the fight phase if he was not within 1" of an enemy.

This is just incoherent. It's not "do what you would ordinarily do if it were the fight phase", it's "fight as if it were the fight phase". A unit that never got the opportunity to make a Pile In move has not fought and so you're just very obviously not doing what the Soulburst clearly tells you you can do. A fight is clearly defined as steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence and there's absolutely nothing saying that a unit must be within 1" to fight.

Incoherent? Not at all. If you would not be eligible to fight in the fighting phase, you are not eligible to fight as if it were the fighting phase. Using this psychic power doesn't change that whatsoever.

...why? I really have no idea why you would read the rules this way. If a special rule tells you that you can do something, then you can do it, even if you would not otherwise be eligible to do that thing. This is obvious, right? Otherwise special rules just don't work at all, because the whole point of special rules is that you can do something that you're not otherwise able to do. Like I said, maybe this gets complicated when you are otherwise specifically prohibited from doing that thing, but that's of course not the case here.

Again, what you seem to be clearly saying is that what it means for a model to "fight as if it were the fight phase" is, in some cases, that it does not fight. That's about as contradictory as a statement can get, yeah? Again, it's not like it's saying "fight if it could fight in the fight phase". "As if it were" is clearly telling you how to go about fighting.

And I'll note, again again, that there's absolutely no reason for us to be looking at Step 1 of the Fight Sequence for this. Step 1 of the Fight Sequence is not part of a fight. The rules are very clear about this.

It's very clear, really. I have no idea why you would assume that step 1 of the Fight Phase is not part of it. Clearly fight as if it were the Fight Phase indicates that you do whatever you would do if it were the fight phase. In case you are not eligible to fight, you don't.

If it allowed you to fight despite not having charged or being within 1" of an enemy, the rule would state so. A clear precedent has been set for this in Age of Sigmar, where rules that override core rules explicitly state that they do so. In this case, it doesn't. It tells you to do what you would do in the Fight Phase.

Taking your argument further, it would allow a unit on the far side of the board from the nearest enemy to move 6", without fighting. You call my interpretation contradictory, yet you are the one arguing that units should be able to fight without actually fighting. It's nonsense.

The first step in the fight phase is, expressly, not part of the fight. After the first step, it says "A fight is resolved in the following steps:" The first following step is step 2.

Solaris wrote:
It's very clear, really. I have no idea why you would assume that step 1 of the Fight Phase is not part of it. Clearly fight as if it were the Fight Phase indicates that you do whatever you would do if it were the fight phase. In case you are not eligible to fight, you don't.

If it allowed you to fight despite not having charged or being within 1" of an enemy, the rule would state so. A clear precedent has been set for this in Age of Sigmar, where rules that override core rules explicitly state that they do so. In this case, it doesn't. It tells you to do what you would do in the Fight Phase.

Taking your argument further, it would allow a unit on the far side of the board from the nearest enemy to move 6", without fighting. You call my interpretation contradictory, yet you are the one arguing that units should be able to fight without actually fighting. It's nonsense.

You would be correct - but the soul-burst rule for assaulting states "as if it was your assault phase" well - we already have established that yncanre can not charge in a turn that he arrive from his special rule so he is not eligible to charge in his assault phase. Just like you wouldn't be able to charge another unit if you were locked in combat with a unit already. Soulburst only allows you to make additional actions you were eligible to make in the first place. It doesn't overrule a restricted action.

Solaris wrote:
It's very clear, really. I have no idea why you would assume that step 1 of the Fight Phase is not part of it. Clearly fight as if it were the Fight Phase indicates that you do whatever you would do if it were the fight phase. In case you are not eligible to fight, you don't.

If it allowed you to fight despite not having charged or being within 1" of an enemy, the rule would state so. A clear precedent has been set for this in Age of Sigmar, where rules that override core rules explicitly state that they do so. In this case, it doesn't. It tells you to do what you would do in the Fight Phase.

Taking your argument further, it would allow a unit on the far side of the board from the nearest enemy to move 6", without fighting. You call my interpretation contradictory, yet you are the one arguing that units should be able to fight without actually fighting. It's nonsense.

Well, no, you just either didn't read or understand the rules.

First, as Drager says, the rules clearly define a fight as Steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence. This is right in the text of Step 1, which you've otherwise been so concerned with. Step 1 itself is pretty clear that it's about telling you how to go about deciding which units will fight -- obviously units are not fighting at this point.

Second, of course a unit on the far side of the board from the nearest enemy can fight by moving 6", without directing attacks. This is normal. If I charge two units at your one unit, and then activate my first charger and kill your unit, I can then activate my second charger. It is definitely eligible to fight, right? The rules are clear that units need only be within 1" or have charged. So then what does my second charger do? It fights. Like all fights, this one starts with a Pile In move of up to 3" as long as I end closer to your closest unit. I then declare targets for my attacks, which are none because there's no enemy unit anywhere close. And then I Consolidate, just like a Pile In. Where you go wrong is in saying that this is not a fight. It is clearly a fight as the rules define one. A fight does not necessarily involve the unit actually directing attacks at an enemy. Again, "fight" is a term that the rules define. It doesn't mean just whatever you want it to mean.

Third, and once again, there is absolutely nothing in the Soulburst fight rule that is over-riding a core rule. You simply can't point to any such core rule. Nothing says that only units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy can fight. Edit: I guess it is over-riding the rule that "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase", but obviously the person who wrote the Soulburst rules intended what was written there to over-ride that core rule. The Strength from Death rule even goes on to note that a consequence of the rules already given is that units can end up fighting twice in a turn.

Fourth, there's actually quite a bit of evidence of intent here, though of course it's possible that this is just different writers having different approaches. I mean, I want to be clear that the RAW case here is basically unassailable, but let's look at what the way these rules were written seems to suggest about intent. There's an obvious comparison to be made to the Sisters' Acts of Faith in the Imperium 2 index. It's a pretty similar sort of ability, where there's a trigger that lets you choose a unit to perform an immediate action, and actually many of the actions it allows are almost identical to the actions that a Soulburst allows. But there are some interesting differences -- the Sisters' ability is more restrictive virtually everywhere, and the Ynnari ability is explicit in being maximally permissive. The Sisters can "immediately move as if it were the Movement phase". Ynnari have the additional explicit permission to "Advance or Fall Back as part of this move". The Sisters can "immediately shoot as if it were the Shooting phase". Ynnari have the arguably necessary explicit permission to do so even if they Advanced or Fell Back. And, finally, the Sisters have a very interesting analogue to the Ynnari fight Soulburst. It's: "The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, immediately pile in and attack as if it were the Fight phase". This is really restrictive! So, first, obviously here we have the explicit requirement that you have to be within 1". And, second, the unit doesn't actually fight. It only gets to pile in and attack. No consolidation is allowed. Of course, the Ynnari rule is written very differently. Soulbursting units get to resolve a full fight rather than some part of one, and they have no restriction on how close they have to be to the enemy. For each of these, the rules are written to make clear that the Ynnari ability is as or more permissive than the Sisters', and is clearly worded so as to make the fight Soulburst in particular more powerful than the Sisters' The Passion.