Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GW has improved a lot since the Dark Lord left. The new edition of both systems is a vast improvement. The interaction with the community has taken a giant leap, the new community website, Duncan's videos, listening to genuine feedback. The pricing has always been contentious, but with the new starter sets, start collecting boxes, online retailers deal, it is easier to get into the hobby than it has been for the last decade. I think GW has started valuing their customers more, but also understand they can't make everyone happy and they ignore the customers who just complain for the sake of complaining.

The bar for improvement was so low already that even the smallest changes were going to look pretty good by contrast.

I pulled a random Tau list from the forums as that is an army that interests me that should be relatively low model count.

2000 Points
Commander with 2x DX-4 Drones - $50
3x Crisis Suit with 6x Drones - $75
3x Crisis Suit with 6x Drones - $75
3x Broadside - $150
3x Commanders in detachment - $150

Total = $500

Does not include paint, books or adding any models for some options. Additions of 1 in each category for mild options:

1x Ethereal - $16
1x Riptide - $85
1x Fire Warrior team - $50
1x Pathfinder team - $35
1x Hammerhead - $60

Total of $246

Grand Total $746 for 2000 points with an option at each slot. Still needs paint, books and miscellaneous items. That is still way to high.

Im pretty sure quite a lot of the management and rules department learned some sort of lessen

the bean counters though?

bean counters never change.

the double character bundle is a garbage web bundle designed to catch parents thinking that its a deal for little timmy.

Per several polls in the past on various sites, the average amount a player is willing to spend on an army in any system is $250.

GW games will never be that.

Honestly if you are in it just for the game, I think you have chosen poorly. Collecting/assembling/painting is part of the "value" as well.

You also have to see the long term. I don't have any other hobby where I still have a benefit from money spent over 20 years ago.

Plus, whenever I hear what my friends and colleagues spend on their hobbies, I always cringe


PS: I spent much more nowadays, so GW must have done something right. I'm by no means a rabid fanboy, I even completely stopped buying/playing from early 4th to start of 6th edition because I was so fed up with GW. So I would say they have definately improved a lot.

Barfolomew wrote:
Grand Total $746 for 2000 points with an option at each slot. Still needs paint, books and miscellaneous items. That is still way to high.

I really don't see that. You're talking about a list for the highest normal point value, plus even more options to customize that list, for $750. Add in paint and rules and you're probably still under $1000 for a "complete" collection. Are you aware of the costs of other hobbies? $1000 isn't a trivial amount of money, but it's very easy to spend that on other hobbies. Even going out for dinner and drinks will quickly add up to $1000. And when you consider how many hours of entertainment that $1000 is going to provide the GW purchase looks like a pretty good deal.

 Peregrine wrote:
And when you consider how many hours of entertainment that $1000 is going to provide the GW purchase looks like a pretty good deal.

That's only a good measure of entertainment value if you have a lot of free time to kill or REALLY enjoy repetitive tasks like cleaning mould lines and painting slight variations of the same model a couple of hundred times


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Per several polls in the past on various sites, the average amount a player is willing to spend on an army in any system is $250.

GW games will never be that.

Wasn't there a huge poll a few years back and the average amount people spent in a year on 40k was more like $700 or some such? It was a really big poll that someone made on an external site and then linked to in several forums. I remember being shocked at the average (given how many people took the poll who were retired vets spending $0 or close to $0).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
That's only a good measure of entertainment value if you have a lot of free time to kill or REALLY enjoy repetitive tasks like cleaning mould lines and painting slight variations of the same model a couple of hundred times

Ok, so don't count the tedious cleanup time. Even just looking at the gaming time it looks pretty good, as once you've spent that $1000 you're set for a long time. If you play 20 games of 40k at ~3 hours per game you're paying about $16 per hour, a cost that seems pretty reasonable compared to "cheap" things like going out for dinner or a movie. And most people are going to play more than 20 games over their entire involvement in 40k, and get some enjoyment from all of the painting/list building/etc hours that happen outside of the game time. That brings the cost per hour down even more.

And that's just comparing 40k to "cheap" everyday things, not even expensive adult hobbies. Looking at my hobby choices 40k seems pretty cost-effective. That $1000 for a whole 40k army buys a new camera lens or two, a weekend trip somewhere by plane (but not too far, at $170/hour, and no hotels/entertainment/etc while I'm there), or a full buy-in to Armada that I'm considering. Buy a nice car? Have fun paying 40k levels of cash every month just on the loan payments. Want a vacation somewhere? You could probably buy multiple 40k armies for that price. Etc. The price of playing 40k once you're committed to it is simply not that much. The real problem is not the ongoing price relative to other hobbies, it's the up-front cost to a new player who has no idea if they even like the game.

 Peregrine wrote:
And most people are going to play more than 20 games over their entire involvement in 40k, and get some enjoyment from all of the painting/list building/etc hours that happen outside of the game time. That brings the cost per hour down even more.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Since I rejoined gaming about 8 years ago, with the budget for the $1000 buy in, I think I must have only played 40K about 10 times before I stopped. I probably played dozens of games as a kid, though, but no budget.

Compared to Malifaux, which I've probably spent $300 on and played about 12 games in the last 3 years. Or Flames Of War which I've spent maybe $300 on and played at least 10 games in the last years. GW can be good value for money, particularly if you play a starter set army, but other gaming companies are usually even better.

 Peregrine wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:
Grand Total $746 for 2000 points with an option at each slot. Still needs paint, books and miscellaneous items. That is still way to high.

I really don't see that. You're talking about a list for the highest normal point value, plus even more options to customize that list, for $750. Add in paint and rules and you're probably still under $1000 for a "complete" collection. Are you aware of the costs of other hobbies? $1000 isn't a trivial amount of money, but it's very easy to spend that on other hobbies. Even going out for dinner and drinks will quickly add up to $1000. And when you consider how many hours of entertainment that $1000 is going to provide the GW purchase looks like a pretty good deal.

As someone who has played and spent time in the hobby, that is why I used the numbers I did.

Variable that increase or decrease price:
- Points played at your local store or play group is what dictates how many points you need. Most groups I played with used tournament points as the standard value (ITC is 2000). You can always go down, but its hard to go up.
- You have to have some options in the list or it gets very boring to play or the army will get shelved.
- Time value of money isn't factored in AND time has to be invested in the army to even allow it to hit the table. A new purchase is not table read.

For this discussion, I won't even count the time value of money, where a squad typically takes about 10 man hours before it can hit the table. We'll assume the joy offsets the cost.

What does $1000 get you in other hobbies in the same vein?

40K Army - If someone buys a new army for $1000 and plays it twice every other week, about 50 games a year and does so for 2 years, that comes out to $10 per game. A game takes 2 hours, so $5 per hour in the cost. That is a pretty dedicated play mind you.

MTG Draft - Weekly cost is $15 for 4 hours of play. $3.75 per hour.

DnD play group - Players Handbook is $50, most sessions are 4 hours occurring every other week for this example. $0.5 per hour

X-wing miniature game - $250, which you will only need to play 50 games, I'm being generous, to equal a 40K army's 200 games.

Typical video - $60 for 20 hours = $3 per hour, call it $4 if you include system

More engrossing video game like WoW - Cost is $150 for 6 months of subscription and expansion, when played for 10 hours a week over 6 months, it is $0.58 per hour, even if $2 when you include the computer, it is far less.

The only hobbies 40k beats in terms of cost are stuff like golf, skiing, shooting, some types of hunting and fishing, motor sports and travel.

I'm not saying 40K is a bad hobby or those who play it don't get their enjoyment out of it, but I am saying that it is too expensive for the market it is playing in and prohibitively expensive for new players and players looking to grow within the hobby.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
The price of playing 40k once you're committed to it is simply not that much. The real problem is not the ongoing price relative to other hobbies, it's the up-front cost to a new player who has no idea if they even like the game.

This is true, but unless you have a large and diverse army which you are completely happy with AND manage to dodge rule changes which severely impact the game, chances are you'll need to spend a couple hundred a year. In addition, if you are part of an active play group, you'll probably want to pick up a second or third army for no other reason than to have something different to play.

I haven't play 40k since 5th edition for various reasons. I own a huge CSM army. For me to return to the hobby I need to buy:
- Core rules - $60
- Index: Chaos - $20
- At least 1 Helldrake cause it seems to be mandatory in order to have a remotely decent list - $74

Total: $154 for a game I might not even like that much. Granted I could probably play with someone else's rules initially, but I find that rather steep.

In addition, while I am not 100$ confident in this remark, GW has crapped on CSM that last 3 editions, so I have little confidence they haven't continued that trend. Due to this, I assume that if I returned to 40K, it would be under the premise of a new army because I would probably want one. That new army would be Imperial Guard (gasp!) or Tau.

The pricing on that tau list is not accurate. Firstly you can knock 15% off the total price at most independent retailers. Secondly a couple of start collecting boxes will also reduce the overall spend. Also a list largely composed character models is usually more expensive.

If you factor in painting time that price per hour comes down considerably. It is also worth mentioning that a well painted army has a pretty good resale value. If you take your time and paint it well you can probably sell it for as much as you paid for it.
In terms of good pricing moves this week has seen two. The first is the fyreslayers sc box which is a straight discount for the magmadroth and some extra minis thrown in.
The second is the ebook version of the path to glory book being half the price of the physical version.

As for the on ramp for new players it is cheaper to get stated than ever with the mini box sets, which are enough for someone to learn if they like the idea of pushing minis around a table.
GW still has a very high price cap but no more so than many other hobbies.
Where they have improved, is by giving more options at the other end of the price scale with bloodbowl, skirmish, shadow war, the intro box sets, standalone games like gorechosen and gangs of commoragh. This seems likely to continue with Shadespire and adeptus Titanicus on the way.

So we have a very beginner friendly game in AoS with lots of ways to play as you build your force and a reasonably balanced rule set with a thriving tournament scene. We have a pretty well regarded version of bloodbowl with regular updates. We have Continued support for lotr. We have an expanding range of decent standalone games. We have an improved white dwarf (though that's not saying much)
We have a decent skirmish version of 40k (though maybe not as good as Necromunda)
We have the heresy game which has maybe had a bit of a dip lately though that is understandable given recent sad news.
We have an increasing range of discounted bundles.
The models are for me the best they have ever been, but that is just down to personal taste.
We have a new edition of 40k but it is much to early to make a judgement call on it yet.
On the downside we have some questionable fluff, some imperfect rules and some very expensive models.
For me GW is doing much better than 5 years ago but still not as good as the 90's to 2000's high with mordheim, Necromunda. BFG, inquisitor, epic and warmaster ( my personal favourite)

Well... as people have pointed out it is a company, a publicly owned one i believe. They aren't going to massively cut their profit margin unless they think it leads to higher sales. Even if they did, the person responsible would be fired for massively hurting their overall profits.

What you can hope for is more models, particularly in starter sets, priced to encourage people to start playing the game or a new army. Which is something they seem to be embracing... albeit a bit slowly.

Ultimately, it makes no difference to me if GW have improved or not, because there is cheaper and better out there.

Vallejo and Tamiya paints are cheaper and IMO, better than their GW equivalent.

As I type this, I'm looking at a giant bottle of surface primer from Vallejo, and comparing it to the tiny bottle of surface primer I bought from GW a few years back. The difference is night and day and all for a couple of bucks of difference.

And of course, thee are so many games companies out there churning great models, and great games, at far lower prices than GW.

It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

Players. In my local area I can't get games of DFC/DZC/Bolt Action/Battletech/etc. but have no problem with 40k/30k/AoS - even Blood Bowl.

beast_gts wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

Players. In my local area I can't get games of DFC/DZC/Bolt Action/Battletech/etc. but have no problem with 40k/30k/AoS - even Blood Bowl.

I had that problem as well for years, but sometimes taking models along to your club, and running a few demo games can convert people.

For Bolt Action, tell them that the creators used to write the 40k rules. That sometimes helps win people over

I appreciate it's not always easy to run demo games.

Chikout wrote:
The pricing on that tau list is not accurate. Firstly you can knock 15% off the total price at most independent retailers. Secondly a couple of start collecting boxes will also reduce the overall spend. Also a list largely composed character models is usually more expensive.

If you factor in painting time that price per hour comes down considerably. It is also worth mentioning that a well painted army has a pretty good resale value. If you take your time and paint it well you can probably sell it for as much as you paid for it.

A. Not everybody has local retailers that do discounts.

B. "If you factor in painting time" only matters if you actually enjoy painting. For some people, its more of a chore than a joy.

Barfolomew wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:
Grand Total $746 for 2000 points with an option at each slot. Still needs paint, books and miscellaneous items. That is still way to high.

I really don't see that. You're talking about a list for the highest normal point value, plus even more options to customize that list, for $750. Add in paint and rules and you're probably still under $1000 for a "complete" collection. Are you aware of the costs of other hobbies? $1000 isn't a trivial amount of money, but it's very easy to spend that on other hobbies. Even going out for dinner and drinks will quickly add up to $1000. And when you consider how many hours of entertainment that $1000 is going to provide the GW purchase looks like a pretty good deal.

As someone who has played and spent time in the hobby, that is why I used the numbers I did.

Variable that increase or decrease price:
- Points played at your local store or play group is what dictates how many points you need. Most groups I played with used tournament points as the standard value (ITC is 2000). You can always go down, but its hard to go up.
- You have to have some options in the list or it gets very boring to play or the army will get shelved.
- Time value of money isn't factored in AND time has to be invested in the army to even allow it to hit the table. A new purchase is not table read.

For this discussion, I won't even count the time value of money, where a squad typically takes about 10 man hours before it can hit the table. We'll assume the joy offsets the cost.

What does $1000 get you in other hobbies in the same vein?

40K Army - If someone buys a new army for $1000 and plays it twice every other week, about 50 games a year and does so for 2 years, that comes out to $10 per game. A game takes 2 hours, so $5 per hour in the cost. That is a pretty dedicated play mind you.

MTG Draft - Weekly cost is $15 for 4 hours of play. $3.75 per hour.

DnD play group - Players Handbook is $50, most sessions are 4 hours occurring every other week for this example. $0.5 per hour

X-wing miniature game - $250, which you will only need to play 50 games, I'm being generous, to equal a 40K army's 200 games.

Typical video - $60 for 20 hours = $3 per hour, call it $4 if you include system

More engrossing video game like WoW - Cost is $150 for 6 months of subscription and expansion, when played for 10 hours a week over 6 months, it is $0.58 per hour, even if $2 when you include the computer, it is far less.

The only hobbies 40k beats in terms of cost are stuff like golf, skiing, shooting, some types of hunting and fishing, motor sports and travel.

I'm not saying 40K is a bad hobby or those who play it don't get their enjoyment out of it, but I am saying that it is too expensive for the market it is playing in and prohibitively expensive for new players and players looking to grow within the hobby.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
The price of playing 40k once you're committed to it is simply not that much. The real problem is not the ongoing price relative to other hobbies, it's the up-front cost to a new player who has no idea if they even like the game.

This is true, but unless you have a large and diverse army which you are completely happy with AND manage to dodge rule changes which severely impact the game, chances are you'll need to spend a couple hundred a year. In addition, if you are part of an active play group, you'll probably want to pick up a second or third army for no other reason than to have something different to play.

I haven't play 40k since 5th edition for various reasons. I own a huge CSM army. For me to return to the hobby I need to buy:
- Core rules - $60
- Index: Chaos - $20
- At least 1 Helldrake cause it seems to be mandatory in order to have a remotely decent list - $74

Total: $154 for a game I might not even like that much. Granted I could probably play with someone else's rules initially, but I find that rather steep.

In addition, while I am not 100$ confident in this remark, GW has crapped on CSM that last 3 editions, so I have little confidence they haven't continued that trend. Due to this, I assume that if I returned to 40K, it would be under the premise of a new army because I would probably want one. That new army would be Imperial Guard (gasp!) or Tau.

I like your breakdown on price.

Barfolomew wrote:
The only hobbies 40k beats in terms of cost are stuff like golf, skiing, shooting, some types of hunting and fishing, motor sports and travel.

But beating it isn't really the point, because entertainment choices aren't determined primarily by cost per hour. Whether or not 40k is the best possible cost per hour available it's at least on par with the alternatives in your examples, in the same $5-10/hour range (depending on how you calculate each option's price). Compare that to, say, going out to dinner where you're going to spend $15-20+ for an hour, maybe two at most. But nobody who isn't poor thinks "I can't afford to go out to a low-end restaurant ever, it's so expensive". The simple fact is that 40k is an affordable hobby if you can afford hobbies in general.

And you can't really ignore those expensive hobbies that 40k beats. You're essentially saying "once you exclude all the things that are more expensive than 40k you find that 40k is the most expensive hobby option". Well of course it is, you've carefully crafted the price comparison to "prove" your point. For example, yeah, MTG draft events are pretty cheap, but if you want to keep up with constructed and have any chance at winning you're going to be spending quite a bit more money than 40k costs.

This is true, but unless you have a large and diverse army which you are completely happy with AND manage to dodge rule changes which severely impact the game, chances are you'll need to spend a couple hundred a year. In addition, if you are part of an active play group, you'll probably want to pick up a second or third army for no other reason than to have something different to play.

That's not really what I meant about "committed". I don't mean people who have an entire army, I mean people who have decided that 40k is a game they want to play. 40k has a major price issue for new players, where there's really no option to start playing for less than $500-1000. You have to make that significant financial investment before you can even decide if you like the game. Contrast that with things like MTG, where the long-term price can actually be significantly more expensive than 40k but there are cheap starter options that let you try out the game for a much lower price. But once you make that decision that 40k is a thing you're going to invest in the cost isn't really that much compared to other things you're buying without much second thought.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

It's hard to beat GW for the sheer size and diversity of their ranges. Even if you lump all Space Marines together as 1 faction, there's still got to be, what, 10 to 15 factions in 40k, each of which is pretty well fleshed out. Warhammer has a similarly huge range even after they culled a lot of the old WHFB models.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

It's hard to beat GW for the sheer size and diversity of their ranges. Even if you lump all Space Marines together as 1 faction, there's still got to be, what, 10 to 15 factions in 40k, each of which is pretty well fleshed out. Warhammer has a similarly huge range even after they culled a lot of the old WHFB models.

Historical war gaming has arguably a bigger scale and scope, and is stuffed with high quality products at very competitive prices.

Bolt Action is a prime example. FOW another. They're not perfect, but they're damn good games, and Bolt Action's unit activation system is far superior to anything from GW these days, and it's cheap.

As an example, I have here the FOW Grey Wolf Book and a heavy tank company list.

All I need for a legal army is 1 HQ and two platoon choices = 3 king tiger tanks = 1000+ points.

I can get 3 Zvezda king tigers for 18 British pounds, or 23 US dollars or 30 Australian dollars.

Yeah, it's not a well balanced army, but the models are high quality and it's a very cheap entry cost. Even if I choose to flesh out that force with some infantry, I can get a Plastic soldier infantry company for around 20 British pounds. So getting into the game costs me as little as 40 British pounds, 65 Austrlian dollars or 50 US dollars.

GW could never compete with that.

For Bolt Action, I can buy 38 Perry Miniatures Afrika Korps troops for around £20. That gives me the legal 1 HQ and 2 platoons minimum, and left overs for snipers, a heavy weapon etc etc

High quality miniatures. Compare that to the 10 Cadian shock troops for £20 from GW, and even then you needed at least 30 to make the troop choice legal.

I could do something similar for other games and hobby materials.

My message to everybody else is this: other companies are doing better and cheaper, and most importantly, they listen to their companies. Again, I wonder why anybody would stick to GW. Best hobby decision I ever made was selling off my GW stuff.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

It's hard to beat GW for the sheer size and diversity of their ranges. Even if you lump all Space Marines together as 1 faction, there's still got to be, what, 10 to 15 factions in 40k, each of which is pretty well fleshed out. Warhammer has a similarly huge range even after they culled a lot of the old WHFB models.

Historical war gaming has arguably a bigger scale and scope, and is stuffed with high quality products at very competitive prices.

Bolt Action is a prime example. FOW another. They're not perfect, but they're damn good games, and Bolt Action's unit activation system is far superior to anything from GW these days, and it's cheap.

As an example, I have here the FOW Grey Wolf Book and a heavy tank company list.

All I need for a legal army is 1 HQ and two platoon choices = 3 king tiger tanks = 1000+ points.

I can get 3 Zvezda king tigers for 18 British pounds, or 23 US dollars or 30 Australian dollars.

Yeah, it's not a well balanced army, but the models are high quality and it's a very cheap entry cost. Even if I choose to flesh out that force with some infantry, I can get a Plastic soldier infantry company for around 20 British pounds. So getting into the game costs me as little as 40 British pounds, 65 Austrlian dollars or 50 US dollars.

GW could never compete with that.

For Bolt Action, I can buy 38 Perry Miniatures Afrika Korps troops for around £20. That gives me the legal 1 HQ and 2 platoons minimum, and left overs for snipers, a heavy weapon etc etc

High quality miniatures. Compare that to the 10 Cadian shock troops for £20 from GW, and even then you needed at least 30 to make the troop choice legal.

I could do something similar for other games and hobby materials.

My message to everybody else is this: other companies are doing better and cheaper, and most importantly, they listen to their companies. Again, I wonder why anybody would stick to GW. Best hobby decision I ever made was selling off my GW stuff.

Historical wargames quickly get boring imo. I have a small FoW force, but I really miss the diversity of armies you get in games like 40k, AoS, Dropzone Commander and WarmaHordes. In historical games, every army is basically the same thing.
Historical wargames are always cheaper than fantasy/sci-fi wargames, but they usually tend to draw a different crowd. The vast majority of people that I know play historical wargames would never look at 40k, and vice versa. Not many people like both in my experience. GW and historicals aren't really competitors. They do not draw the same audience.

With all due respect, Iron Captain, this is nonsense.

The diversity of historical wargames is vast.

World War 2 is probably the most popular, but from my own collection:

I have skirmish games from the 16th century set in Europe and Japan, the wild west, ancient Rome and Greece etc etc

Large scale Napoleonic battles and American civil war battles.

I have sailing ships fighting in Age of Sail, and now Warlord games are briiging out an X-Wing style, battle of Britain game...

The diversity is as long as my arm.

And on another note, Zvezda is a good Russian company that makes good models. Why aren't you doing your patriotic duty and buying their products?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It amazes me that anybody still buys GW products such is the quality and availability of competitor products.

It's hard to beat GW for the sheer size and diversity of their ranges. Even if you lump all Space Marines together as 1 faction, there's still got to be, what, 10 to 15 factions in 40k, each of which is pretty well fleshed out. Warhammer has a similarly huge range even after they culled a lot of the old WHFB models.

Historical war gaming has arguably a bigger scale and scope, and is stuffed with high quality products at very competitive prices.

Unless I was taught bad history, playing a historic wargame doesn't let you pit tanks against demons, space bugs against robots or lizardmen against ratmen.

That's kind of what I meant by "diverse", it allows players with different interests collect an army they like and then pit them against someone else who might have very different tastes.

Don't get me wrong, I like WW2 as a setting, I collect model planes and they're almost exclusively WW2 variety as well as have tiny British and German 15mm forces.... BUT, the scope is limited to an opponent who has a similar interest. When I was trying to get a WW2 game off the ground in my local gaming group it was almost immediately shot down with "nah I have no interest in WW2" from a couple of players and still a couple of other "I would do XXXXX period instead". You can potentially get the same problem with 40k/WHFB (people not wanting sci fi or not wanting fantasy) but it seems to me players seem to be able to find something they like in at least 1 of the armies available.

Bolt Action is a prime example.

Bolt action does have a big range of cheap models, but they will always look weird to me, the proportions are funky and not in a good way. Not that the plastic Cadians are any better, but Cadians are only 1 troop type out of an immense range of 40k models.

FOW another.

For whatever reasion it's hard to get people in to 15mm gaming. I love 15mm for the tanks but it seems many people hate it because of the infantry.

Don't take it the wrong way, I understand the appeal of those other games as well, but you made the statement it amazes you people still buy GW stuff, I'm just giving what I think is one of the biggest reasons why; the diverse options for army selection, the fleshed out ranges within each army and also the fact it has a critical mass thing still going where it's usually not terribly hard to find an opponent.

Plenty of other companies do fantasy ans sci-fi for cheaper and better than GW IMO.

Osprey wargames books are well written, cheap, cover sci-fi and fantasy, and I would recommend them to anybody.

Malifaux is a great game. Otherworld miniatures, I've been looking into Arcworlde and it looks a nice game. Hell, digging out my old Mordheim rules is another option and I can use miniatures from other nations.

I say again, even if historicals is not your thing, the depth of non-GW competition for fantasy and sci-fi is a joy to behold.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Plenty of other companies do fantasy ans sci-fi for cheaper and better than GW IMO.

Osprey wargames books are well written, cheap, cover sci-fi and fantasy, and I would recommend them to anybody.

Malifaux is a great game. Otherworld miniatures, I've been looking into Arcworlde and it looks a nice game. Hell, digging out my old Mordheim rules is another option and I can use miniatures from other nations.

I say again, even if historicals is not your thing, the depth of non-GW competition for fantasy and sci-fi is a joy to behold.

I do think you're vastly under valuing easily to find games. There are more than a few games out there I would love to play. But I'm a parent of two littles in my 30's and i work the relatively normal 40-45 a week after traffic. That said my gaming time is hyper limited. Building a community for a game simply isn't something I have time to do nor, honestly, do I have an inclination and probably the ability There is a club or two locally but they stick to pretty much KoW/X-wing/Armada/40k/AoS so even there the only non-"mainstream" game is KoW (depending on your area). I basically get to play 1-2 days a month and normally maximize that time with a tournament of some sort. So I'm event limited which means 40k, AoS, Warmachine, X-wing, or Armada. Diversity sounds great if you're lucky enough to be in an area that supports it. I live in the 2nd largest game store per person city in the country (at least in 2015 it was) and if you want tournaments it's still pretty much card games, ffg, or gw. If it's not one of the three almost dont' bother.

And I say that with a 2 fully painted dystopian war fleets, 3 full factions of Wrath of Kings (best f-ing game ever), lots of board games, a Drop Zone fleet (small) and a small DZC force outside of my GW stuff. Guess how much of that comes out of the house and how often? Shoot, I've got 4 5k Epic armies fully painted and I can't entice people into playing it. Sometimes getting games is the most important thing and at least GW of this year is almost unrecognizable from 3 years ago.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Plenty of other companies do fantasy ans sci-fi for cheaper and better than GW IMO.

Osprey wargames books are well written, cheap, cover sci-fi and fantasy, and I would recommend them to anybody.

Malifaux is a great game. Otherworld miniatures, I've been looking into Arcworlde and it looks a nice game. Hell, digging out my old Mordheim rules is another option and I can use miniatures from other nations.

I say again, even if historicals is not your thing, the depth of non-GW competition for fantasy and sci-fi is a joy to behold.

I do think you're vastly under valuing easily to find games. There are more than a few games out there I would love to play. But I'm a parent of two littles in my 30's and i work the relatively normal 40-45 a week after traffic. That said my gaming time is hyper limited. Building a community for a game simply isn't something I have time to do nor, honestly, do I have an inclination and probably the ability There is a club or two locally but they stick to pretty much KoW/X-wing/Armada/40k/AoS so even there the only non-"mainstream" game is KoW (depending on your area). I basically get to play 1-2 days a month and normally maximize that time with a tournament of some sort. So I'm event limited which means 40k, AoS, Warmachine, X-wing, or Armada. Diversity sounds great if you're lucky enough to be in an area that supports it. I live in the 2nd largest game store per person city in the country (at least in 2015 it was) and if you want tournaments it's still pretty much card games, ffg, or gw. If it's not one of the three almost dont' bother.

And I say that with a 2 fully painted dystopian war fleets, 3 full factions of Wrath of Kings (best f-ing game ever), lots of board games, a Drop Zone fleet (small) and a small DZC force outside of my GW stuff. Guess how much of that comes out of the house and how often? Shoot, I've got 4 5k Epic armies fully painted and I can't entice people into playing it. Sometimes getting games is the most important thing and at least GW of this year is almost unrecognizable from 3 years ago.

I can sympathize with your struggle to get game time with non-GW systems, and the fact that you don't have much time as it is.

As somebody who lives in the middle of nowhere, I struggle for games as well.

I would not buy those 2 models.

Gw is still a company and (rightly) want as much as they can get for their product. Seeing as GW has shareholders, they are actually obliged to. It's not my preference, but it's not a problem.
A good example is the AoS fyreslayers. Those models are too expensive and GW lost sales as a result. The SC that got released recently has a magmadroth and 10 infantry, for less than the price of one magmadroth.

As for the rest, GW is significantly better under their new(ish) leadership. They actually bother with making a decent game and have started doing their market research again.

GW's attitude is definitely better as of late.

Cost-wise, they're still in the spastic area they were prior, with some items being a very reasonable deal, and many not. I think the hardback codices coming up will be a mistake. I don't think we'll see some massive 180-degree swing in terms of prices.

The AoS ones are generaly $40 instead of the $50 for the hardbacks they used to be. With the exception of the Stormcast which was 50 but some have been $35. I think the codex cost will likely be reasonable for all except SM. SM are boned because they are huge and because they are popular so that one will be $50 for sure.