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As per FAQ update, if you kill and transform an enemy unit into a Chaos spawn through some form of powers or ability, you have to spend reinforcement points to gain the unit. Anyone else think this is dumb? It should be free.

Considering how "meh" Chaos spawn already is, I think this is an undue penalty to an already mediocre unit.

Also note, that the FAQ says even other similar abilities that other factions may have.

Thoughts?

That's what the rules for reinforcement said in the first place. It didn't actually need an FAQ except people are bad at reading the rules

This also has no effect on spawn as its Magnus and LoCs that have the rule

 CrownAxe wrote:
That's what the rules for reinforcement said in the first place. It didn't actually need an FAQ except people are bad at reading the rules

This also has no effect on spawn as its Magnus and LoCs that have the rule

How do you mean? In the FAQ they explicitly state that if Maguns kills a character you have to pay for that spawn. Or am I misreading your comment?

You are wrong, spawn are awesome. D6 attacks with a -2 and 2 damage, plus mutations, is baller.

 Tsol wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
That's what the rules for reinforcement said in the first place. It didn't actually need an FAQ except people are bad at reading the rules

This also has no effect on spawn as its Magnus and LoCs that have the rule

How do you mean? In the FAQ they explicitly state that if Maguns kills a character you have to pay for that spawn. Or am I misreading your comment?

i think you are misreading my comment.

 Tsol wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
That's what the rules for reinforcement said in the first place. It didn't actually need an FAQ except people are bad at reading the rules

This also has no effect on spawn as its Magnus and LoCs that have the rule

How do you mean? In the FAQ they explicitly state that if Maguns kills a character you have to pay for that spawn. Or am I misreading your comment?

He's saying that it's not a penalty to Spawn. It's a penalty to LoC and Magnus.

 Purifier wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
That's what the rules for reinforcement said in the first place. It didn't actually need an FAQ except people are bad at reading the rules

This also has no effect on spawn as its Magnus and LoCs that have the rule

How do you mean? In the FAQ they explicitly state that if Maguns kills a character you have to pay for that spawn. Or am I misreading your comment?

He's saying that it's not a penalty to Spawn. It's a penalty to LoC and Magnus.

Ah!

Really it doesn't make any sense.

Why go through the whole rigmarole of bringing a Spawn, paying points for it, then trying to turn something else into said Spawn when you could just deploy the Spawn as part of your army and toss the whole summoning/transformation method?

This is what happens when you have an edition where a mistake they made with the rules (the Daemonic summoning psychic powers) creates a situation so bad where GW pushes the pendulum so hard that it ends up stuck the other direction.

One day they're going to realise that the middle ground is so much better than opposite extremes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Really it doesn't make any sense.

Why go through the whole rigmarole of bringing a Spawn, paying points for it, then trying to turn something else into said Spawn when you could just deploy the Spawn as part of your army and toss the whole summoning/transformation method?

Because if you just want to bring a Spawn and set it up during deployment then you are limited to just a spawn. With Reinforcement Points you have a pool of points from which you can summon/transform anything that can be paid for with those points. If you want to have a Reinforcement Point pool that is exactly the cost of 1 Spawn then go ahead, but the intention behind Reinforcement Points is that you can set aside a couple of hundred points and then summon whatever you can afford that best suits the current situation. Need some Bloodletters? Summon some Bloodletters. Are Plaguebearers maybe better to combat the problem? Summon those instead. Got the points left over to turn someone into a Spawn? Go for it. Reinforcement Points are designed to give an army flexibility, not simply summon a specific unit.

What's reinforcement points?

 koooaei wrote:
What's reinforcement points?

Points you don't spend during army creation. You can use them later to summon units or turn things into chaos spawns.

It is stupid. But anything else would be seen as "not fair" by the , competitive crowd.

Wayniac wrote:
It is stupid. But anything else would be seen as "not fair" by the , competitive crowd.

Well it's only present in the competitive rules. Play Narrative and you get your spawn. Seems fair, right? That the competitive ruleset takes competitive opinions into consideration?

Use it or lose it? Thats bad mmkay. Summoning needs to be repaired or replaced.

not saddened by this at all, free models from any source is bad, we have a points cap for a reason

Wayniac wrote:
It is stupid. But anything else would be seen as "not fair" by the , competitive crowd.

I think you forgot to put quotes around "competitive" because whining over such extreme edgecases being unfair is more of a scrub thing to do.

Well, it might be a good idea to leave those points for a single spawn if you field magnus just in case. It's still better than trying to deliver one on foot.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Use it or lose it? Thats bad mmkay. Summoning needs to be repaired or replaced.

In this case, you could do it by limiting the amount of times this can happen (once) and then costing the model with the opportunity of creating a spawn in mind.

 Formosa wrote:
not saddened by this at all, free models from any source is bad, we have a points cap for a reason

I feel like Necrons are skirting the edge of this. Would you feel better if summoning instead was just a demon unit with the Necron reanimation rules? Basically, as long as the unit exists, it keeps summoning new models to reinforce losses.

 Purifier wrote:

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Use it or lose it? Thats bad mmkay. Summoning needs to be repaired or replaced.

In this case, you could do it by limiting the amount of times this can happen (once) and then costing the model with the opportunity of creating a spawn in mind.

 Formosa wrote:
not saddened by this at all, free models from any source is bad, we have a points cap for a reason

I feel like Necrons are skirting the edge of this. Would you feel better if summoning instead was just a demon unit with the Necron reanimation rules? Basically, as long as the unit exists, it keeps summoning new models to reinforce losses.

Yeah I wouldn't mind that, if Magnus just added a dead spawn to an existing unit I wouldn't mind as much, I've just always hated "free" units, 7th made this even worse urgh

 Formosa wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Use it or lose it? Thats bad mmkay. Summoning needs to be repaired or replaced.

In this case, you could do it by limiting the amount of times this can happen (once) and then costing the model with the opportunity of creating a spawn in mind.

 Formosa wrote:
not saddened by this at all, free models from any source is bad, we have a points cap for a reason

I feel like Necrons are skirting the edge of this. Would you feel better if summoning instead was just a demon unit with the Necron reanimation rules? Basically, as long as the unit exists, it keeps summoning new models to reinforce losses.

Yeah I wouldn't mind that, if Magnus just added a dead spawn to an existing unit I wouldn't mind as much, I've just always hated "free" units, 7th made this even worse urgh

Summoning wasn't exactly free units in the same vein as drop pods or razorbacks. Going through the process of purchasing a psycher, giving him the appropriate power, attempting to cast without being denied and risking perils meant there were more hoops to go through before you got your 'free' unit.
I think it needed to be altered but it has gone too far the other way.

this edition is already doomed after only 2 weeks after release good work again GW... we are just facing a dumber 7,2 version, few pages of rules and already lot of mostly no sense FAQ.

 Huron black heart wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Use it or lose it? Thats bad mmkay. Summoning needs to be repaired or replaced.

In this case, you could do it by limiting the amount of times this can happen (once) and then costing the model with the opportunity of creating a spawn in mind.

 Formosa wrote:
not saddened by this at all, free models from any source is bad, we have a points cap for a reason

I feel like Necrons are skirting the edge of this. Would you feel better if summoning instead was just a demon unit with the Necron reanimation rules? Basically, as long as the unit exists, it keeps summoning new models to reinforce losses.

Yeah I wouldn't mind that, if Magnus just added a dead spawn to an existing unit I wouldn't mind as much, I've just always hated "free" units, 7th made this even worse urgh

Summoning wasn't exactly free units in the same vein as drop pods or razorbacks. Going through the process of purchasing a psycher, giving him the appropriate power, attempting to cast without being denied and risking perils meant there were more hoops to go through before you got your 'free' unit.
I think it needed to be altered but it has gone too far the other way.

Only in Matched Play, where it needed to do just that. And summoning wasn't really much of a sacrifice back when you could summon units of demons that could summon units of demons that could summon units of demons that could...

 blackmage wrote:
this edition is already doomed after only 2 weeks after release good work again GW... we are just facing a dumber 7,2 version, few pages of rules and already lot of mostly no sense FAQ.

Yes, the fact that one skill is not really realistically available (unless you gamble on some kind of cool plan you've hatched) in Matched Play for balance reasons makes it literally unplayable. I like the fact that you consider it only two minor changes away from 7th.

My favorite part of the whole thing is that they're perfectly OK with bonkers OP characters like Celestine and Guilliman hopping right back up "just cause".

Oh don't worry, they built that ability into celestine's p- poin- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHA I'm sorry I can't even say it sarcastically.

no more free units in match play, no exceptions why were people even debating this?

personally I am glad for the reserve pool. summoning units and free deploying transports were what broke 7th. for all its bad it was at least playable by most armies. being on the receiving end of gladius or neverending demons on the other hand was basically an autolose

If you want free units, play narrative and with power level instead. You get your free spawn and your opponent his/her free chainfists.
If you want a more granular game, you play with points and pay for everything you summon. You'll need tactics to put those into play effectively, something that wasn't known in 7th, I'm aware of that.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
no more free units in match play, no exceptions why were people even debating this?

personally I am glad for the reserve pool. summoning units and free deploying transports were what broke 7th. for all its bad it was at least playable by most armies. being on the receiving end of gladius or neverending demons on the other hand was basically an autolose

This topic is not even close to the same level.

You're saying we should put points aside just in case we kill a character in close combat with this weapon? It's bearer is PL 17 for goodness' sake!

 Intruder wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
no more free units in match play, no exceptions why were people even debating this?

personally I am glad for the reserve pool. summoning units and free deploying transports were what broke 7th. for all its bad it was at least playable by most armies. being on the receiving end of gladius or neverending demons on the other hand was basically an autolose

This topic is not even close to the same level.

You're saying we should put points aside just in case we kill a character in close combat with this weapon? It's bearer is PL 17 for goodness' sake!

I'm saying that you definitely shouldn't, and that it is a rule there for flavour in Narrative games, but not meant for Matched Play. Summoning is a hard mechanic to balance around and they're trying to stay away from it in Matched. Kudos to them.

Incidentally, "free units" have been around since 3rd edition Necron Tomb Spyders. Don't forget the OPness of Without Number Tyranids from 4th, or Chenkov Conscripts from 5th. It's OP to pay extra points to recycle infantry that can't do anything for several turns as they walk in from your table edge!

And clearly Tervigons were so OP in 5th edition, what with such nasty powers like Jaws of the World Wolf lurking about.

No free units but you can get free models added to units.....unless you play Tzeentch

 Intruder wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
no more free units in match play, no exceptions why were people even debating this?

personally I am glad for the reserve pool. summoning units and free deploying transports were what broke 7th. for all its bad it was at least playable by most armies. being on the receiving end of gladius or neverending demons on the other hand was basically an autolose

This topic is not even close to the same level.

You're saying we should put points aside just in case we kill a character in close combat with this weapon? It's bearer is PL 17 for goodness' sake!

I would argue it is exactly the same sure it is not as powerful as bringing 600 points of free transports but the underlying issue of free units stands. Personally given how unlikely it is to happen I would not spend the points for matched play, but if you do make it happen and did not pay the points for it then you don't get the summons off. it would be a slippery slope to say otherwise, this unit can possibly summon for free but that cannot. I personally applaud GW on their making it a flat out no to any form of free summoning in matched. now I also agree it is fluffy for it to happen so at the same time applaud its use in narrative play. turning my wraboss into a spawn would be quite hilarious outside of a tournament setting.