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It would seem I need to preface every thread I make with the insistence I am asking a genuine rules question and not trying to troll, otherwise I get flag-spammed and locked.

This is a serious question regarding the wording of the re-roll rule and abilities that allow you to re-roll charge rolls, such as "'Ere We Go!" for the Orks (and by extension anything that would allow you to re-roll an xD6 roll). This is because when using abilities like Da Jump which land me 9" away it's deathly important to know what my options are to maximise the chance of the magical 9 roll to get into close combat.

Page 3: Small Rulebook (Emphasis mine) wrote:Re-rolls
Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifers (if any) are applied.

Page 10: Index - Xenos 2 wrote:’Ere We Go!
A unit with this ability can re-roll failed charge rolls.

Now, from what I have seen on the internet, the general consensus is that, while not 100% clear and could do with an official FAQ (thanks GeeDubs), you may choose to reroll only a single one of a multi-dice roll. So for example if I rolled a 5 and a 1 for my charge, I could choose to re-roll just the 1 rather than scrap the meaty 6 as well.

What my questions are then:
1) Do you agree with the position that you can re-roll a single dice from a multi-roll, or is "you get to roll some or all of the dice again" a descriptor (representing rules that let you re-roll 1's for example) rather than an instruction?
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, if I re-roll one of my charge dice, can I then choose to re-roll the other once I see the result of the re-roll? If not from the rule allowing me to re-roll failed charge rolls, can I use a command point to force a re-roll of the un-re-rolled dice? To continue the above example, I roll 5 and 1. I re-roll the 1 and get a 3. Can I now choose to re-roll the 5 for the faint chance of getting a 6 or is it too late for me to re-roll with either 'Ere We Go! or a Command Point Re-roll?

The rule on page 3 is a description of a general rule that exists. The rule from page 10 is a specific rule for charging.

In the question you posed ere we go will make you roll both dice as it refers to the charge roll which is the result of 2 die. The only way you could get to roll the dice separately is with the use of CP as that ability only allows you to reroll one die.

So you would roll 2 dice, CP to roll 1 die then ere we go to reroll the other, as the first die has been rerolled it cant be rerolled again.

Cheer

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
The rule on page 3 is a description of a general rule that exists. The rule from page 10 is a specific rule for charging.

In the question you posed ere we go will make you roll both dice as it refers to the charge roll which is the result of 2 die. The only way you could get to roll the dice separately is with the use of CP as that ability only allows you to reroll one die.

So you would roll 2 dice, CP to roll 1 die then ere we go to reroll the other, as the first die has been rerolled it cant be rerolled again.

Cheer

Andrew

'Ere we Go doesn't specify how to execute a re-roll, it simply states that one can be done in this situation.

The Rule about re-rolls says some or all.

I believe the shenanigans outlined above are support by raw.

But it doesnt specify anything much though. Ere we go allows the reroll of failed charges. A charge roll, acording to the rules is roll 2 die and add them together. Only rolling one die is not a reroll of the rule, which ere we go specifies, but a modification of the total.

In order to roll both dice seperately requires the use of a CP first.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
But it doesnt specify anything much though. Ere we go allows the reroll of failed charges. A charge roll, acording to the rules is roll 2 die and add them together. Only rolling one die is not a reroll of the rule, which ere we go specifies, but a modification of the total.

In order to roll both dice seperately requires the use of a CP first.

You're not really addressing that the re-roll rule quoted from the core rules appears to define a re-roll of a roll as when you "roll some or all of the dice again". You're using a definition of "re-roll" which is different from the one the rules are arguably laying out -- if I pick up only one of the dice and roll it again then I have definitely performed a re-roll of the charge roll according to the definition provided. I am not sure that there is great evidence that this thing that looks like a definition is intended merely to refer to an ability to re-roll some dice rolls after you've made lots of rolls simultaneously; surely it is obvious that re-rolling "the dice" after "a roll" refers to the dice involved in that roll and not all dice everywhere.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, if I re-roll one of my charge dice, can I then choose to re-roll the other once I see the result of the re-roll? If not from the rule allowing me to re-roll failed charge rolls, can I use a command point to force a re-roll of the un-re-rolled dice? To continue the above example, I roll 5 and 1. I re-roll the 1 and get a 3. Can I now choose to re-roll the 5 for the faint chance of getting a 6 or is it too late for me to re-roll with either 'Ere We Go! or a Command Point Re-roll?

I think the latest round of FAQs (the rulebook one, about command re-rolls) makes pretty clear that they intend for you to declare all re-rolls before you do anything else, including making any of the re-rolls.

my humble opinion is: the 'ere we go rule allows you to reroll failed charge rolls; the charge roll is made by rolling 2 dice. If you use EWG rule, you reroll both. Otherwise spend 1 CP and reroll just one dice.
And as per FAQ you cannot reroll retroactively, and this can be applied here too, imo. Once you reroll one dice out of 2, you cannot reroll the second non-rerolled dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It would seem I need to preface every thread I make with the insistence I am asking a genuine rules question and not trying to troll, otherwise I get flag-spammed and locked.

This is a serious question regarding the wording of the re-roll rule and abilities that allow you to re-roll charge rolls, such as "'Ere We Go!" for the Orks (and by extension anything that would allow you to re-roll an xD6 roll). This is because when using abilities like Da Jump which land me 9" away it's deathly important to know what my options are to maximise the chance of the magical 9 roll to get into close combat.

Page 3: Small Rulebook (Emphasis mine) wrote:Re-rolls
Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifers (if any) are applied.

Page 10: Index - Xenos 2 wrote:’Ere We Go!
A unit with this ability can re-roll failed charge rolls.

Now, from what I have seen on the internet, the general consensus is that, while not 100% clear and could do with an official FAQ (thanks GeeDubs), you may choose to reroll only a single one of a multi-dice roll. So for example if I rolled a 5 and a 1 for my charge, I could choose to re-roll just the 1 rather than scrap the meaty 6 as well.

What my questions are then:
1) Do you agree with the position that you can re-roll a single dice from a multi-roll, or is "you get to roll some or all of the dice again" a descriptor (representing rules that let you re-roll 1's for example) rather than an instruction?
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, if I re-roll one of my charge dice, can I then choose to re-roll the other once I see the result of the re-roll? If not from the rule allowing me to re-roll failed charge rolls, can I use a command point to force a re-roll of the un-re-rolled dice? To continue the above example, I roll 5 and 1. I re-roll the 1 and get a 3. Can I now choose to re-roll the 5 for the faint chance of getting a 6 or is it too late for me to re-roll with either 'Ere We Go! or a Command Point Re-roll?

The quote from page 3 is a general statement that is pointing out that there are some rules that let you re-roll dice and that these rules may let you re-roll some or all of the dice, it is not giving you specific permition to choose how many dice you are going to re-roll. The number of dice you re-roll is determined entirely by the special rule in question that lets you re roll.

The special rules that let you re-roll dice come in three types, a general re-roll the result rule ('Ere We Go would be an example of this) where you do not have a choice and have to roll all dice again, rules that specifiy a sepcific result to re roll (the myriad re-roll 1's abilities) and finally a rare few rules that give you the option of how many dice to re roll (Runes of the Farseer for instance).

Id disagree the general rerole let's you rerole one or more therefore you can rerole a single die or both you could not rerole 1 then rerole the other unless you were rerole due to a second ability

Dionysodorus wrote:

You're not really addressing that the re-roll rule quoted from the core rules appears to define a re-roll of a roll as when you "roll some or all of the dice again". You're using a definition of "re-roll" which is different from the one the rules are arguably laying out -- if I pick up only one of the dice and roll it again then I have definitely performed a re-roll of the charge roll according to the definition provided. I am not sure that there is great evidence that this thing that looks like a definition is intended merely to refer to an ability to re-roll some dice rolls after you've made lots of rolls simultaneously; surely it is obvious that re-rolling "the dice" after "a roll" refers to the dice involved in that roll and not all dice everywhere.

Sorry if I didnt make myself clear, had ere we go specified that you get to reroll the charge dice as opposed to the charge roll then this discussion would not be happening, the op could reroll only one of the two dice. But the rule refers to the 'test' rather than the individual rolls and so ere we go would only allow both dice to be rolled.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

You're not really addressing that the re-roll rule quoted from the core rules appears to define a re-roll of a roll as when you "roll some or all of the dice again". You're using a definition of "re-roll" which is different from the one the rules are arguably laying out -- if I pick up only one of the dice and roll it again then I have definitely performed a re-roll of the charge roll according to the definition provided. I am not sure that there is great evidence that this thing that looks like a definition is intended merely to refer to an ability to re-roll some dice rolls after you've made lots of rolls simultaneously; surely it is obvious that re-rolling "the dice" after "a roll" refers to the dice involved in that roll and not all dice everywhere.

Sorry if I didnt make myself clear, had ere we go specified that you get to reroll the charge dice as opposed to the charge roll then this discussion would not be happening, the op could reroll only one of the two dice. But the rule refers to the 'test' rather than the individual rolls and so ere we go would only allow both dice to be rolled.

Cheers

Andrew

Except the rules for re-rolls say I can roll some of the dice when re-rolling a check.

That is because it is talking about all of the different rules that involve re-rolling a dice. The CP rule specifies it's a single dice, others like EWG specific re-rolling "the roll" which for charges is the sum of two dice.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
That is because it is talking about all of the different rules that involve re-rolling a dice. The CP rule specifies it's a single dice, others like EWG specific re-rolling "the roll" which for charges is the sum of two dice.

Can you show me proof that it's only a descriptive and not an instructive?

You are instructed to reroll the failed charge roll

There is only one roll. A "1" is not a fail, neither is a"5", only the result of "6" is the fail. That is what you are instructed to reroll.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

What my questions are then:
1) Do you agree with the position that you can re-roll a single dice from a multi-roll, or is "you get to roll some or all of the dice again" a descriptor (representing rules that let you re-roll 1's for example) rather than an instruction?
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, if I re-roll one of my charge dice, can I then choose to re-roll the other once I see the result of the re-roll? If not from the rule allowing me to re-roll failed charge rolls, can I use a command point to force a re-roll of the un-re-rolled dice? To continue the above example, I roll 5 and 1. I re-roll the 1 and get a 3. Can I now choose to re-roll the 5 for the faint chance of getting a 6 or is it too late for me to re-roll with either 'Ere We Go! or a Command Point Re-roll?

1) I disagree since the rule that allows you to re-roll has specific instructions, telling you to re-roll the charge roll - that's both dice. Not a single die as e.g. the strategem does.
2) If you played outside Matched Play, you could choose to use a CP to re-roll the 1, get a 3, then use another CP to re-roll the 5.
In Matched Play you could do the same if you have the means to do it, but you couldn't use 'Ere We Go! and the strategem on the same roll - as that would require one dice to be re-rolled twice, which is not allowed. So either you use 'EWG! to re-roll the entire charge roll or you use the strategem to re-roll one of the two dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
That is because it is talking about all of the different rules that involve re-rolling a dice. The CP rule specifies it's a single dice, others like EWG specific re-rolling "the roll" which for charges is the sum of two dice.

Can you show me proof that it's only a descriptive and not an instructive?

i can see why in previous threads there was locking and accuse of trolling.
i think that the answer to the OP has been given twice already.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
That is because it is talking about all of the different rules that involve re-rolling a dice. The CP rule specifies it's a single dice, others like EWG specific re-rolling "the roll" which for charges is the sum of two dice.

Can you show me proof that it's only a descriptive and not an instructive?

The closest I can come to an equivalence is from the elder index. The Farseer Runes. Both making charge and making psychic require a test/roll. However it states in the Runes that you may reroll any number of dice, a phrase missing from ere we go.

There may be others, but I haven't come across them yet.

It may be illustrative that no-one here supports the position of rerolling just one die and using various examples and arguments to support that position. Rather than continuing to demand evidence to further support, can you please explain why you think we are wrong?

Cheers

Andrew

I won't bother. I'll just be accused of trolling again despite being sincere.

Thank you for the Farseer runes example, that lends credence to the fact it causes all of the dice to be rerolled.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


...when using abilities like Da Jump which land me 9" away it's deathly important to know what my options are to maximise the chance of the magical 9 roll to get into close combat.


What my questions are then:
1) Do you agree with the position that you can re-roll a single dice from a multi-roll, or is "you get to roll some or all of the dice again" a descriptor (representing rules that let you re-roll 1's for example) rather than an instruction?
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, if I re-roll one of my charge dice, can I then choose to re-roll the other once I see the result of the re-roll? If not from the rule allowing me to re-roll failed charge rolls, can I use a command point to force a re-roll of the un-re-rolled dice? To continue the above example, I roll 5 and 1. I re-roll the 1 and get a 3. Can I now choose to re-roll the 5 for the faint chance of getting a 6 or is it too late for me to re-roll with either 'Ere We Go! or a Command Point Re-roll?

I totally feel for your desire to get into combat man.

So as far as what your best option is, it's actually really simple.

Did you roll a 4 or higher on either of the dice you rolled?

If yes, re-roll the lowest die but not the highest one.

If no, re-roll both dice.

With 'Ere We Go (and the potential use of a CP re-roll for a single die) you have 7th edition fleet. You can re-roll one or both of the dice, but you can't segment it. You have to decide what you're going to do before you know the result of say, your CP re-roll. You also can't use the same stratagem in the same phase, so you can't re-roll 1 die and then decide to use a second command point to re-roll the other one. Use my rules as outlined above and you'll get into combat the statistically highest amount that you can, I promise

I agree with the sentiment that you must either ..

a) reroll one dice with a CP
b) reroll both dice with Ere we Go

But you cannot mix and match the two, as both re-roll a charge roll in some capacity.

on page 3, it is referring to rules that let you re-roll 'A DICE ROLL'

the charge roll is not a dice roll it is a special roll that involves 2 dice rolls added together and ere we go is an option to re-roll a failed charge roll. Since the charge roll always uses 2 dice added together it is not defined as a dice roll which is why it doesn't apply here.

The bit that refers to 'SOME OR ALL OF THE DICE' covers more general circumstances such as rules that allow you to re-roll 1's or re-roll misses. Here if you roll 5 dice and 2 miss or are 1's then you can re-roll SOME of the dice ie the misses not the entire roll.

Ere we go is actually less effective than the previous edition of the rule where it specifically said you can re-roll one of the dice when charging etc.

 AndrewC wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

You're not really addressing that the re-roll rule quoted from the core rules appears to define a re-roll of a roll as when you "roll some or all of the dice again". You're using a definition of "re-roll" which is different from the one the rules are arguably laying out -- if I pick up only one of the dice and roll it again then I have definitely performed a re-roll of the charge roll according to the definition provided. I am not sure that there is great evidence that this thing that looks like a definition is intended merely to refer to an ability to re-roll some dice rolls after you've made lots of rolls simultaneously; surely it is obvious that re-rolling "the dice" after "a roll" refers to the dice involved in that roll and not all dice everywhere.

Sorry if I didnt make myself clear, had ere we go specified that you get to reroll the charge dice as opposed to the charge roll then this discussion would not be happening, the op could reroll only one of the two dice. But the rule refers to the 'test' rather than the individual rolls and so ere we go would only allow both dice to be rolled.

Cheers

Andrew

So would you say the equivalent rule in the Power From Pain tree, Eager to Flay on Xenos 1 P 42 would let you reroll one or both, but Ere We Go would not?

Guys its simple. Roll 2 dice. Not happy? roll " er we go " and then if your still not happy, spend a CP to re roll 1 dice AFTER " er we go ". WHY you ask? " er we go " must be used before command points ( otherwise you will lose your chance to use " er we go " because " er we go " can only re roll the ORIGINAL charge roll ) it cannot re roll your CP re roll. *drops mic*

I realize someone in this thread already probably explained this, but I wanted to further make the point because this is all the information you need to know for the best statistical charge.

Except your wrong.

Ere we go rerolls a charge roll.

The command point would be rerolling a dice that's already been rerolled.

Not allowed.

Crusaderobr wrote:Guys its simple. Roll 2 dice. Not happy? roll " er we go " and then if your still not happy, spend a CP to re roll 1 dice AFTER " er we go ". WHY you ask? " er we go " must be used before command points ( otherwise you will lose your chance to use " er we go " because " er we go " can only re roll the ORIGINAL charge roll ) it cannot re roll your CP re roll. *drops mic*

I realize someone in this thread already probably explained this, but I wanted to further make the point because this is all the information you need to know for the best statistical charge.

Thunderfrog wrote:Except your wrong.

Ere we go rerolls a charge roll.

The command point would be rerolling a dice that's already been rerolled.

Not allowed.

I think you dropped something on accident, there ya go.*hands Crusaderobr his mic*

I don't see how you end up with "HWG! must be done before Strategem" though. Not that it matters, but I'd like to see the reasoning why - assuming I could re-roll dice multiple times - I am not allowed to do it the other way around. Re-rolling one die in the charge roll doesn't turn the charge roll into something different, it's still a charge roll.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Except your wrong.

Ere we go rerolls a charge roll.

The command point would be rerolling a dice that's already been rerolled.

Not allowed.

All it says under the " stratagems " section in the rulebook, is : " Command Re-Roll, you can re roll any single dice ". Word for word. It does not specify you cannot re-roll a dice thats already been re-rolled.

Im waiting for someone to drop in this forum and rick rooooooooooooll us. lol.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Except your wrong.

Ere we go rerolls a charge roll.

The command point would be rerolling a dice that's already been rerolled.

Not allowed.

All it says under the " stratagems " section in the rulebook, is : " Command Re Roll, you can re roll any single dice ". Word for word.

It's in the core rules. It's been there last edition, it's there this edition. It's on page 178 in the German BRB, on the sidebar - probably somewhere close to that in other languages.

nekooni wrote: I don't see how you end up with "HWG! must be done before Strategem" though.

" er we go " can only be used to re roll the original charge roll, so if you spend a CP to re-roll a dice on the charge roll, you lose the ability to use " er we go ". Its pretty cut and dry.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Except your wrong.

Ere we go rerolls a charge roll.

The command point would be rerolling a dice that's already been rerolled.

Not allowed.

All it says under the " stratagems " section in the rulebook, is : " Command Re-Roll, you can re roll any single dice ". Word for word. It does not specify you cannot re-roll a dice thats already been re-rolled.

Ahem...

Never gonna look you up,
Never gonna read the rules,
Never gonna turn to pg. 178
And hurt you...

!

 Crusaderobr wrote:

nekooni wrote: I don't see how you end up with "HWG! must be done before Strategem" though.

" er we go " can only be used to re roll the original charge roll, so if you spend a CP to re-roll a dice on the charge roll, you lose the ability to use " er we go ". Its pretty cut and dry.

Where does it say that? Like, does the rule actually say "you may re-roll an original charge roll"? What exactly is the "charge roll with a re-rolled dice" called, if it's somehow not a "charge roll" that qualifies for HWG anymore?

I mean, you can't use the strategem on a Charge Roll you HWG'd and you can't use HWG on a roll you stategem'd, but that's due to the "cannot re-roll any dice more than once" rule.