Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So GW just released details for the 40k throne of skulls... 100 power level, and change your army between every round.

Seriously, what are they smoking?

Where can one view them?

 Ratius wrote:
Where can one view them?

https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Throne-Of-Skulls-Dark-Imperium-Pack.pdf


Automatically Appended Next Post:

secretForge wrote:
Seriously, what are they smoking?

If you don't like it, try one of the others? The Doubles is 1000 points per player (2000 points total) - https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/40k-Doubles-July-pack-V4-4.pdf

secretForge wrote:
So GW just released details for the 40k throne of skulls... 100 power level, and change your army between every round.

Seriously, what are they smoking?

This is not an ultra competitive tournament and it looks like they're simply promoting the ease of jumping in via PL.

beast_gts wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Where can one view them?

https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Throne-Of-Skulls-Dark-Imperium-Pack.pdf



If you don't like it, try one of the others? The Doubles is 1000 points per player (2000 points total) - https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/40k-Doubles-July-pack-V4-4.pdf

How did you find that link?

Did they release it on one of their official channels?

Power Levels in a competitive environment. Oh boy. FREE POWERFISTS AND COMBI-PLASMAS FOR EVERYONE

At this event, each player will build an army roster with a Power Level of no more than 100. Power Levels are a great new way to build armies in Warhammer 40,000. Not only are they quick to do, but they also allow you to take a big variety of exciting options and wargear choices. Have you ever wanted to tool your sergeant up with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer, but it didn’t quite fit within the points limit? Get ready to make some more heroes on the battlefield!

Do these people have no idea what game balance is, even remotely? I wouldn't even be so upset if they weren't being disingenuous and downright lying about why the introduced power levels.

Bluebeard wrote:

How did you find that link?

Did they release it on one of their official channels?

Yes, they're on the Warhammer World site - https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/
Go into the event you're interested in, then 'Download Event Pack'.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Power Levels in a competitive environment. Oh boy. FREE POWERFISTS AND COMBI-PLASMAS FOR EVERYONE

At this event, each player will build an army roster with a Power Level of no more than 100. Power Levels are a great new way to build armies in Warhammer 40,000. Not only are they quick to do, but they also allow you to take a big variety of exciting options and wargear choices. Have you ever wanted to tool your sergeant up with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer, but it didn’t quite fit within the points limit? Get ready to make some more heroes on the battlefield!

Do these people have no idea what game balance is, even remotely? I wouldn't even be so upset if they weren't being disingenuous and downright lying about why the introduced power levels.

Chill. This is not a competitive tournament. It is supposed to be about bringing along your armies and having a fun day out.

They will also run their official GTs which I guarantee will be fixed list, points.

They will also - gasp! - run campaign events and multiplayer events with a variety of different approaches to army list construction and scenario play. If you don't like this, choose the events you wish to go to, or not. They are simply doing what they do for AOS - provide a mixture of events for people with different attitudes to competition and narrative play. Stop whining.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Power Levels in a competitive environment. Oh boy. FREE POWERFISTS AND COMBI-PLASMAS FOR EVERYONE

At this event, each player will build an army roster with a Power Level of no more than 100. Power Levels are a great new way to build armies in Warhammer 40,000. Not only are they quick to do, but they also allow you to take a big variety of exciting options and wargear choices. Have you ever wanted to tool your sergeant up with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer, but it didn’t quite fit within the points limit? Get ready to make some more heroes on the battlefield!

Do these people have no idea what game balance is, even remotely? I wouldn't even be so upset if they weren't being disingenuous and downright lying about why the introduced power levels.

There's literally zero prizes for winning games. It's promoted as a weekend of friendly gaming. I.E. exactly what power levels were intended for !

secretForge wrote:
So GW just released details for the 40k throne of skulls... 100 power level, and change your army between every round.

Seriously, what are they smoking?

Why are you surprised by this? GW's events for the past 5+ years have been a "casual at all costs" dumpster fire, full of stupid rules and zero concern for balance.

Pretty much what Peregrine said - their tournaments for 7th were all Unbound.

Though Power Levels allowing for army changes are interesting...

I'm half tempted to see what I can do with this. Basically just make a bunch of X point block detachments, mix and match as you please. Could be fun to swap X out for Y - they even state the purpose of this is for situations where you're finding your army is underperforming or just not doing what you thought it would do and to not abuse it.

Umbros wrote:
Chill. This is not a competitive tournament. It is supposed to be about bringing along your armies and having a fun day out.

Umbros wrote:
Chill. This is not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
This is not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
... not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
... competitive tournament.

I want you to think very carefully about the words you use.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Umbros wrote:
Chill. This is not a competitive tournament. It is supposed to be about bringing along your armies and having a fun day out.

Umbros wrote:
Chill. This is not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
This is not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
... not a competitive tournament.

Umbros wrote:
... competitive tournament.

I want you to think very carefully about the words you use.

I know exactly what I said. I have attended these events for Age of Sigmar and have spoken regularly with the event staff who run them. There are different levels of competition. It is pretty clear that this is not one for min-maxers.

I went to a multiplayer tournament and the winner was the person who betrayed the most opponents. There was still competition for that prize despite it not being what you might call a competitive tournament.

It is completely baffling that people are complaining about GW providing a welcoming event for people of all attitudes. They are clear in their limits and expectations for this event. They are also going to put on hyper-competitive GTs. It seems like a good thing that they are doing a mixture of things because there are a variety of types of gamers.

Umbros wrote:

I went to a multiplayer tournament and the winner was the person who betrayed the most opponents. There was still competition for that prize despite it not being what you might call a competitive tournament.

And I was gutted that I missed it by just two votes

Umbros wrote:
It is completely baffling that people are complaining about GW providing a welcoming event for people of all attitudes. They are clear in their limits and expectations for this event. They are also going to put on hyper-competitive GTs. It seems like a good thing that they are doing a mixture of things because there are a variety of types of gamers.

Indeed. People seem to play in their own bubbles and not realise that different people play games in different ways.

You may not 'get' people who have embraced Power Levels. That is okay, you are not required to, and you already have a points system to use instead. But GW get it, which is why they run (and keep running) events like these, alongside the more competitive events. The people who go have fun.

The OP seems to be suggesting he would be happier if events like these did not exist. I would venture that he might benefit from caring less how other people enjoy their games.

Umbros wrote:
The OP seems to be suggesting he would be happier if events like these did not exist. I would venture that he might benefit from caring less how other people enjoy their games.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that I don't want non competitive events to exist. I just think that a non competitive event, should not have the most open ripe for abuse, structure imaginable. I believe that a non competitive event should have greater restrictions placed upon it, so that you are more likely to ensure that people are going to abide by the spirit of the event.

My issue with power levels, ignoring the balance arguments, is that they are a pointless split in the community that didn't need to exist. While i think they are the inferior option, I think it would have been better to either go with power levels 100% or points 100% but providing two options causes needless arguments, and dificulties for people who want to play the game, as ideologies collide for no good reason.

But then I also think that power levels, which by gws own description are a greater abstraction of the points system, while potentially good for very new players (I don't necessarily thing this is the case but ill concede it in the scope of this argument), are not something that any event should adopt, as its an event and a minimum level of preparation should be expected of attendees, If the gains of using points are that if reduces the scope for people to abuse the non competitive nature of an event, and the costs are that it means that attendees have to spend 10 more minutes prior to the event planning, then I think its a no brainer decision.

secretForge wrote:

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that

That's okay!

secretForge wrote:
I don't want non competitive events to exist. I just think that a non competitive event, should not have the most open ripe for abuse, structure imaginable. I believe that a non competitive event should have greater restrictions placed upon it, so that you are more likely to ensure that people are going to abide by the spirit of the event.

The thing is, that is not what happens,. The people who go to these events do not (the odd twit aside) abuse the system - they are genuinely there to have fun and, importantly, ensure their opponents have fun.Even that treachery event mentioned above was a serious hoot. It is all about the attitude players bring with them.

secretForge wrote:
My issue with power levels, ignoring the balance arguments, is that they are a pointless split in the community that didn't need to exist.

That split already exists - as I said above, not everyone plays the same way. There is a reason that many (a poll on these forums came up with 25%-odd) have embraced Power Levels. Why they have embraced them is not something they really need to justify (that thread was done to death elsewhere) and, unless you have the same epiphany, it is entirely possible that you won't get it anyway. And that is okay, but different people play the game differently.

To give an example, there is a thread on this board at the moment where someone has asked why you would take a Bloodthirster over Magnus - and it is quite clear that the answer for some is because it is a Bloodthirster. Points efficiency just does not come into it. And the way the OP there is dismissing their points as being 'fluff-based' makes me think he does not get the games they want to play. For them, the answer to his question is obvious.

This is because different people play the game in different ways.

secretForge wrote:
While i think they are the inferior option, I think it would have been better to either go with power levels 100% or points 100% but providing two options causes needless arguments, and difficulties for people who want to play the game, as ideologies collide for no good reason.

The trouble with this is that you are limiting a hobby that potentially has huge expanse. I would go further and suggest that you are also limiting yourself

Imagine this for a moment... One weekend, you go down your local club/store and play your points-based/semi-competitive games. You do fairly well, and get some ideas on how to improve one of your army lists. All good fun.

The next weekend, you go over some bloke's house and take part in a set of narrative games that chart the progress of a couple of chapters landing on an Ork held world set in the time of the Beast where, and this is crucial, who wins is completely irrelevant. No points are used - not even Power Levels. Cool things happen on the table, your Space Marine Commander and his Honour Guard end up fighting a last ditch defence on the steps of a temple to the Emperor, the last of them dying in the final turn as the Warboss finally charges in.

You did not lose that battle. No one did. But everyone had a great time playing.

There is no reason you cannot do both. I do - I'll go to the Power Level events, and I'll go to the Grand Tournaments.

I put it to you that you are missing a massive part of this hobby, and have been doing so for years.

secretForge wrote:
But then I also think that power levels, which by gws own description are a greater abstraction of the points system, while potentially good for very new players

This is where you get a little condescending (not that I think for a moment you intended it that way). Power Levels are not for beginners, and they are not for kids (no more than Age of Sigmar is but that is another, though related, argument).

Power Levels have been perfect for the games we play here - not just the narrative/campaign/fluff games, and not just the 'learning the new system' games. If one of our players comes up to me and says 'I have just got a new detachment for my Eldar, I think they can give your Death Guard a right kicking', then the game is on - and Power Levels will suit us down to the ground.

At the end of the day, what GW is doing is giving options, as many as they can. However, while they can take you down to the water, they cannot make you drink - and you should not have to. However, you might spare a thought and consider that many other players do want to drink from that particular well.

Because we all play differently.

MongooseMatt wrote:
Because we all play differently.

Up until a month ago, we didn't play differently, now we arbitrarily do.

secretForge wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:
Because we all play differently.

Up until a month ago, we didn't play differently, now we arbitrarily do.

No, no, and thrice no!

We have always played games with that approach. Power Levels did not introduce it - they just helped facilitate it.

You cannot possibly believe that every 40k (or Fantasy) gamer has always played competitively/semi-competitively. The divide (and I don't think that is a good term for we are all in the same hobby, we just approach it differently) has always been there. GW have done nothing more than acknowledge it to a greater degree.

How can I give an example..?

Okay, as another hobby, I mess around with radio-controlled planes. You go up the airfield, you will find the WWII warbirds that their owners spent months on, you get the British Airways pilot who has chucked a few grand into a (real) jet-engined plane, you get the guy who just has his ropey old sports plane that has more patches than original skin, the helicopter pilot who annoys everyone by just constantly hovering at one end of the runway, the pylon racer who is just trying to go as fast as he can round the circuit, the glider pilots who wonder why anything needs an engine at all...

They are all different and, it turns out, they don't always get along. But they are all part of the same hobby and have chosen their particular... discipline (I am with the scale guys myself).

Even when you zero in on 40k as part of the larger miniatures gaming hobby, there are different disciplines.

Not everyone plays yours, and not everyone plays yours all the time.

I didnt say that every player played competitively or semi competitively. But what I intended to point out was that until 8th, we all had the same single rule set.

Now we have to make double the number of lists, if we want a pickup game, just to make people happy. Or potentially more as some armies play styles change drastically if in matched play or not. Or we insist on playing the type of game that we want to play.

None of these points are relevant to the throne of skulls event (but its still fun to discuss).

But back to the event itself...

Whats to stop someone actively going to this throne of skulls event with the intention of a competitive player and ruining 5 peoples 2 hours and their price of admission? Normally, there would be the same balancing mechanics they face everywhere else. Independant non competitve events usually require list submission prior to the event to weed out lists that would break the philosophy of the event, and thats the best way to do it. But using a less effective balancing system, and then doubling down by allowing people to make changes as the event goes on.

Its like removing all of the fences from a sheep enclosure, and putting signs in their place saying wolves not welcome here.

secretForge wrote:
So GW just released details for the 40k throne of skulls... 100 power level, and change your army between every round.

Seriously, what are they smoking?

They said in the introduction that its non competitive and is meant purely for fun. I don't see what the problem is.

secretForge wrote:

Whats to stop someone actively going to this throne of skulls event with the intention of a competitive player and ruining 5 peoples 2 hours and their price of admission?

This is possible. However, there are some counterbalances.

1. I have been going to the Sigmar events of this nature for the past couple of years and, in that time, I have met two guys like this. Just two. There really is a different attitude overall at these events.

2. If someone does go up and do that, they will win nothing. There are literally no prizes for winning all your games. The overall winner is decided by best game votes, and the twonk you describe will not gain any. He will come bottom.

3. You get these unpleasant twonks in events whether they are narrative or competitive. GW can do nothing to rule out a social malfunction, that is just being part of the world.

However, this is probably best summed up this way: the people who go to these events like them. That is all that is needed to justify their existence.

I have my ticket for this in September. I would much prefer if it was using points but it's guaranteed to be a good time anyway. People at ToS aren't going to be abusing power levels. (I might lol)


Does anyone know how often they do more competitive events with points? Nothing on the calendar atm.

secretForge wrote:
I didnt say that every player played competitively or semi competitively. But what I intended to point out was that until 8th, we all had the same single rule set.

I had WAAC players argue with me against the official GW FAQ, and in one case, they didn't want my Thunderwolves with Power Fists/Thunder Hammers to be Strength 10, in spite of the FAQ saying they went up to that (and this was back before their shenanigans, and I wasn't even playing them that night).

I have also had players at tournaments tell me that I had to do things differently because they were playing by the ITC tournaments rules, while the tournament itself was not using them, and had several games turn out differently because of that. These are the same WAAC players as I mentioned before. I had never even heard of the ITC before that, and still resent the fact that there are fan-made tournament rules that don't have the guts to truly stop the broken shenanigans (they could have fixed 7th Edition tournament bloat, but they didn't).

I don't think I have ever seen "one set of rules" since I have been in this hobby.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Power Levels in a competitive environment. Oh boy. FREE POWERFISTS AND COMBI-PLASMAS FOR EVERYONE

At this event, each player will build an army roster with a Power Level of no more than 100. Power Levels are a great new way to build armies in Warhammer 40,000. Not only are they quick to do, but they also allow you to take a big variety of exciting options and wargear choices. Have you ever wanted to tool your sergeant up with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer, but it didn’t quite fit within the points limit? Get ready to make some more heroes on the battlefield!

Do these people have no idea what game balance is, even remotely? I wouldn't even be so upset if they weren't being disingenuous and downright lying about why the introduced power levels.

Did you read the website? Like the first Sentence where it says this is non-competitive?

Until they get rid of Favourite Game votes no points system is going to fix the Throne of Skulls.

Patiently waiting for the 40k Grand Tournament heat 1.