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Heyo all,

So running a Battalion + Super Heavy Aux (Comes in at exactly 2000 Pts)

HQ:

Lord Kaldor Draigo

Castellan Crowe

Troops:

2x Five Man Terminator Squad:

Justicar w/ Nemesis Daemon Hammer/Storm Bolter

3x Terminators w/ Nemesis Force Sword/Storm Bolters

1x Terminator w/ Nemesis Force Sword/Psilencer

1x Five Man Termiantor Squad:

Justicar w/ Nemesis Daemon Hammer/Storm Bolter

3x Terminators w/ Nemesis Force Sword/Storm Bolters

1x Terminator w/ Nemesis Force Sword/Psycannon

Heavy Support:

Vortimer Pattern Land Raider Redeemer w/Multi-Melta/Storm Bolter

Lord of War:

Cerastus Knight-Castigator

So game plan is basically have all my big durable targets on the ground that can gain ground relatively quickly (a necessity as half of the army need to be deployed) whilst the Terminators deep strike in to cause target prio issues.

Crowe and 1 Squad of Terminators are going into the Land Raider. Looking at Crowe he doesn't seem too impressive, but is a cheap HQ and seems like he could be handy character for moping up crappy infantry units. I could in turn just have him out and Gate of Infinity the Land Raider up in the opponents grill also (What makes the LR great is that it remains effective throughout the game regardless of damage as flamestorm cannons are always an auto-hit!)

The Knight will hopefully be the one to soak fire whilst the LR moves up the board whilst deep striking the 2 squads of terminators and Draigo at opportune spots.

Thoughts?

First, there's no reason to play the vortimer. It costs more than the regular redeemer but it is strictly worse, which is pretty ridiculous. Just take a regular one.

Also, terminators are just worse than paladins. For the point difference, they are a ton more survivable and do more damage, which is really important if they are the core of your army.

To pay for the upgrade, loose the crowe and the special weapons on the paladins (they are pretty bad). You even have some spare points to grab an extra hammer (only one per squad is a little low, 2 work much better).

Honestly I would not play the knight, but I suppose you must play it, so I think with those tweaks the army will work a bit better.

Seizeman wrote:
First, there's no reason to play the vortimer. It costs more than the regular redeemer but it is strictly worse, which is pretty ridiculous. Just take a regular one.

What makes it worse? There's a 4 pt difference or something, it does fire 4 shots less from the Psycannon but has a 1str extra. It also get's psy-out assault launchers which the regular one doesn't get which is a nice extra. Plus I kinda like to run my army abit more thematically.

Seizeman wrote:
Also, terminators are just worse than paladins. For the point difference, they are a ton more survivable and do more damage, which is really important if they are the core of your army.

I quite liked the look of the regular terminators as I've seen in quite a few battle reports already that heavy weapons are insta killing the more "durable" paladins with all the D3 and D6 weapons out there and that having more normal Terminators seems to be the way to go.

As for the Knight he's in the list to be a real threat to be able to destroy any unit on the table and moves quickly as he's the cerastus variant.

Cheers for the input in any case

The only difference between the regular redeemer vs the vortimer is the vortimer get's psy launchers, which are just a worse version of the frag launcher the redeemer has. The vortimer also costs 11 more points. You are paying 11 points for a downgrade, which makes zero sense. Also the assault cannon is better than the psycannon against every target.

The presence of multiwound weapons is exactly the reason Paladins are so much better. Against 2, 1d3 and 1d6 damage weapons they are literally twice as durable as terminators. Nine points for twice the durability, 33% more melee power, +1 leadership and a WS 2+ sargeant? There's absolutely no justification to ever take terminators (even if you are short on points, just take less models, 4 paladins are still better than 5 terminators in every way).

Seizeman wrote:
The only difference between the regular redeemer vs the vortimer is the vortimer get's psy launchers, which are just a worse version of the frag launcher the redeemer has. The vortimer also costs 11 more points. You are paying 11 points for a downgrade, which makes zero sense. Also the assault cannon is better than the psycannon against every target.

My bad about the points difference, didn't look close enough. It's a valid point, maybe I'll just rock the Forgeworld model for aesthetics and run it as a Redeemer.

As for the Paladins, I'm still not convinced purely on witnessing half a dozen batreps with Paladins not doing much more than the regular termies to warrant their points. I'll see how my first game goes then do the switch up and lose the 2 command points and just run Vanguard instead.

Thanks for commenting, feedback is always appreciated!

i would take a 10 man strike squads with falcions and storm bolter over a 5 man terminator squad or paladin squad.

10 man strike squad deepstriking = 40 storm bolter shots with re roll to hit from driago within 6". with the falcions it gives you 21 attack's in CC. take a brother ancient and you have 31 attacks in CC for a 10 man squad for 210 poionts that is 10 points less then 5 terminators.

I'm actually looking to just switch out the Land Raider for a Storm Raven w/ Lascannons/Missiles/Bolters and also switch Crowe for a Grand Master w/hammer, it takes me back perfectly to 2000 pts (Those were the models I had yet to buy).

Then see how it goes. If I get stomped then I'll think about buying even more new units. But the main reason why I play GK's is for Terminators

Cheers guys

 ThatNorthLondonGuy wrote:
I'm actually looking to just switch out the Land Raider for a Storm Raven w/ Lascannons/Missiles/Bolters and also switch Crowe for a Grand Master w/hammer, it takes me back perfectly to 2000 pts (Those were the models I had yet to buy).

Then see how it goes. If I get stomped then I'll think about buying even more new units. But the main reason why I play GK's is for Terminators

Cheers guys

So if you want to field squads of 5 with heavy weapons, I think the Terminators are still a good choice. Fielding 5 Paladins with 2 special weapons is just whoa expensive for how easily they go down. I am, however, starting to advocate taking a Vanguard Detachment of minimum-sized Paladin units with no special weapons. At 165 points, the 3 Paladins seem to more easily get back their value.

The Imperial Knight is a good addition hands down. Just about any Knight is great with Grey Knights, though the Crusader might be the best because it gives us what we lack: high strength, long-range shooting.

I'm not sure why people are advocating hordes of PAGK. My experience has been that they simply evaporate. Even Terminators have trouble staying alive.

Skip the Paladins... take the termies.. plus Paladins wouldnt fill your troop slot would they?

Seizeman wrote:
Also the assault cannon is better than the psycannon against every target

Asscan wounds T7 on 5s, which is all vehicles. Psycan wounds T7 on 4s.
Assuming BS3+, we get 8 hits and 2.667 wounds from the asscan. We get 5.333 hits and 2.667 wounds from the psycan.
Exactly equal against T7. The Psycan gets better on T6 since it wounds on 3s (3.5 wounds for it vs 4 wounds from the asscan).

So while "against every target" is an aggressive exaggeration, the volume of shots for the asscan is preferable to the additional point of strength--especially if you trust in your ability to roll high.

Audustum wrote:

 ThatNorthLondonGuy wrote:
I'm actually looking to just switch out the Land Raider for a Storm Raven w/ Lascannons/Missiles/Bolters and also switch Crowe for a Grand Master w/hammer, it takes me back perfectly to 2000 pts (Those were the models I had yet to buy).

Then see how it goes. If I get stomped then I'll think about buying even more new units. But the main reason why I play GK's is for Terminators

Cheers guys

So if you want to field squads of 5 with heavy weapons, I think the Terminators are still a good choice. Fielding 5 Paladins with 2 special weapons is just whoa expensive for how easily they go down. I am, however, starting to advocate taking a Vanguard Detachment of minimum-sized Paladin units with no special weapons. At 165 points, the 3 Paladins seem to more easily get back their value.

The Imperial Knight is a good addition hands down. Just about any Knight is great with Grey Knights, though the Crusader might be the best because it gives us what we lack: high strength, long-range shooting.

I'm not sure why people are advocating hordes of PAGK. My experience has been that they simply evaporate. Even Terminators have trouble staying alive.

10 men pagk squad bring more dakka then 5 terminators in deepstrike and cost 10 points less. deepstrike those pagk in cover for a 2+ save and you have a more durable unit then 5 terminators. even if they have 2 W a piece. i've been using both alot and i prefer pagk over termies. even 5 pagk with storm bolters put out 20 shots half range. good for late obj. cleaning.

Sadly I've got the model already as it was so boss in 7th, the cannon on him is pretty decent in 8th I've found regardless, including the obvious plus of his amazing combat ability. Hoping the Stormraven weapon platform would help with this.

Seems to be quite the split on Pala's/Strike Squads/Terminators

I guess it's really early on into 8th so there's no real meta yet. Will be interesting when the GK codex comes out that's round the corner which may make the decisions alot easier.

I've seen some nasty stormraven/purifier smite spam lists already, but that's so dry

I'm firmly convinced that NDKs are not a good include. I've had much better success with Dreads. Better toughness, no degrade, and a lot cheaper. Load one into each SR.

The NDK's severely decreased movement is really what's hurting--that and the 3+ to hit, booooooooo. These things should have WS2+.

Been experimenting too here with little units that shine in the GK force... it's especially hard if trying to play purely GK (in anticipation of the codex).. here are some little things i've found, FWIW, hope it helps.

1) Paladins - The Paragon is where it's at here, with a hammer. he has the extra WS to afford the -1 with the hammer. Love a 3-man squad with hammer on the paragon and halberds on the other guys. Hammerhand can also be nice here, or there's always smite.

2) Interceptors with storm bolters and gate (cc weapons dont' matter much, take what you like). So I take 4 units of 5, and they all know gate of infinity. Sure, they can't all use it at the same time, but they can all start on the board, mostly hidden, shunt together for a ton of shots on a weak target/T5 unit to some effect, and later one by one they gate to wherever they need to be to score maelstrom objectives.

3) Draigo vs. Voldus - Ok, so yes... I've had voldus 1-shotted too many times by a single lascannon, but his access to 3 powers is really nice. Draigo is a beast too, with the better ap and storm shield, but sometimes the extra 50 points is just too hard to scrape up. Don't be afraid to take Voldus if it means a little more punch in the rest of the list

4) 10 Paladins - I keep trying this because I want it to work... 4 special weapons in a 10 man squad, and combat squad so all 4 (who also know gate) come down with an HQ allowing some re-rolls... i mean 4 psycannons is decent, and 4 psilencers is actually pretty bad ass... but then I always find myself remembering the damn -1 to hit... give up.. as cool as this seems (and as many times as I keep trying it)... it's not worth it. ha!

5) Land Raider - So, the Godhammer pattern actually provides some really nice anti-tank firepower that GK naturally lack. Also, dropping in all yoru stuff turn 1 is just a death sentence so keeping things safe in one or two of these isn't bad. Try 2 5-man interceptor squads in a Land Raider.. you can get out 3" move over infantry and even get a good charge in sometimes to tie up artillery and stuff... it's not bad. then drop in your other hard hitters nearby. Also, I mean 2 land raiders with draigo between is a punch in the nuts to a lot of units ha.

6) Srtrikes & storm bolter spam - yup, these dudes can deliver the S4 pain, and you can spam them, and you can deep strike them while their dedicated transports start on the field... but it's bland to me and I dont' think it's the only way to make GK work

7) Finally the Dreadknight - I guess he's seen his hayday in 7th... so RIP. He's not punchy enough to just go bare-cc, and he's too expensive for a single 12" heavy incinerator shot on the drop... and hitting on 4s with his other weapons is terrible for his cost... as mentioned above, rifleman dreads are still way better, if you're into that. (Oh, also check out the plasma cannon for the ven. dread... it seems pretty decent now. I do think the auto-cannons are what you want - it fills that hole in the GK armaments well since you won't be taking psycannons and have no missile launchers - but you do have some options).

Hope that helps, at least it's been things that I've found out so far in the past few weeks. Keep up the fight! ha
Oh and one more thing, I wonder when the FW FAQ comes out for the Imperial Armour books (hopefully in a day or two from now?) maybe they'll include labels for some of the marine models that enable them for GK... here's to hoping ha. (FWIW they need to do this so Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels can take them like before, so maybe theres' some hope...)

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
Been experimenting too here with little units that shine in the GK force... it's especially hard if trying to play purely GK (in anticipation of the codex).. here are some little things i've found, FWIW, hope it helps.

1) Paladins - The Paragon is where it's at here, with a hammer. he has the extra WS to afford the -1 with the hammer. Love a 3-man squad with hammer on the paragon and halberds on the other guys. Hammerhand can also be nice here, or there's always smite.

2) Interceptors with storm bolters and gate (cc weapons dont' matter much, take what you like). So I take 4 units of 5, and they all know gate of infinity. Sure, they can't all use it at the same time, but they can all start on the board, mostly hidden, shunt together for a ton of shots on a weak target/T5 unit to some effect, and later one by one they gate to wherever they need to be to score maelstrom objectives.

3) Draigo vs. Voldus - Ok, so yes... I've had voldus 1-shotted too many times by a single lascannon, but his access to 3 powers is really nice. Draigo is a beast too, with the better ap and storm shield, but sometimes the extra 50 points is just too hard to scrape up. Don't be afraid to take Voldus if it means a little more punch in the rest of the list

4) 10 Paladins - I keep trying this because I want it to work... 4 special weapons in a 10 man squad, and combat squad so all 4 (who also know gate) come down with an HQ allowing some re-rolls... i mean 4 psycannons is decent, and 4 psilencers is actually pretty bad ass... but then I always find myself remembering the damn -1 to hit... give up.. as cool as this seems (and as many times as I keep trying it)... it's not worth it. ha!

5) Land Raider - So, the Godhammer pattern actually provides some really nice anti-tank firepower that GK naturally lack. Also, dropping in all yoru stuff turn 1 is just a death sentence so keeping things safe in one or two of these isn't bad. Try 2 5-man interceptor squads in a Land Raider.. you can get out 3" move over infantry and even get a good charge in sometimes to tie up artillery and stuff... it's not bad. then drop in your other hard hitters nearby. Also, I mean 2 land raiders with draigo between is a punch in the nuts to a lot of units ha.

6) Srtrikes & storm bolter spam - yup, these dudes can deliver the S4 pain, and you can spam them, and you can deep strike them while their dedicated transports start on the field... but it's bland to me and I dont' think it's the only way to make GK work

7) Finally the Dreadknight - I guess he's seen his hayday in 7th... so RIP. He's not punchy enough to just go bare-cc, and he's too expensive for a single 12" heavy incinerator shot on the drop... and hitting on 4s with his other weapons is terrible for his cost... as mentioned above, rifleman dreads are still way better, if you're into that. (Oh, also check out the plasma cannon for the ven. dread... it seems pretty decent now. I do think the auto-cannons are what you want - it fills that hole in the GK armaments well since you won't be taking psycannons and have no missile launchers - but you do have some options).

Hope that helps, at least it's been things that I've found out so far in the past few weeks. Keep up the fight! ha
Oh and one more thing, I wonder when the FW FAQ comes out for the Imperial Armour books (hopefully in a day or two from now?) maybe they'll include labels for some of the marine models that enable them for GK... here's to hoping ha. (FWIW they need to do this so Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels can take them like before, so maybe theres' some hope...)

you are forgetting storm ravens

289 points for 2 las cannons shots, 6 heavy bolter shots, 24 bolter shots and 2 missile shots hitting on 3+ (cause he has machine spirit) and -1 to hit cause he is a flyer. can pack 12 models and a dreadnought and has a wooping 14 wounds. way better in then a landraider i think.
razorbacks are also a good alternative for dreadknights and dreadnoughts. 10 wounds and a choice of descent loadout. 12" move so verry flexible

Yeah, I just don't have any storm ravens so I haven't been able to field any yet in 8th - but yup, they're good!

So are people advocating 3 man Paladins to get more paragons with hammers?

 TheMostWize wrote:
So are people advocating 3 man Paladins to get more paragons with hammers?

I think 3-man sqauds are good for a few reasons, but yes mainly the paragon with hammer. You can get 9 wounds as opposed to 10 in a 5-man terminator squad, but you have better synergy with apothecaries on the paladins I think. Also, extra units means extra smite, and filling up a detachment easier (if you need to). Neither the terminators or paladins are really "survivable"... so I just like the better damage output (more attacks, and yes the hammer paragon).

I also think all the heavy weapons on them aren't worth the points... so no need to get up to 5 for those. You are always moving, so hitting on 4s just isn't great IMO when your storm bolters already put out 4 shots when you move. Just my exeperience anyway.

i would back them up with a astartes librarian in terminator armour to geth that charge off (re-roll charge) and maybe a brother ancient for that extra attack on that paragon.

but like you said they need to survive. so deepstriking them with a apothecary, brother ancient and artartes libby would do the trick. but then you have a verry expensive mini blob