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Jaq Draco lives wrote:
This is hilarious Shuppet can't even let it go in this thread. Dear lord man you have a problem.

Luke I think you are right. More Trygons but even then, not sure I'd make it work.

One thing I would say is the Exocrine even though not that tough in the face of Las Cannons with 3 wounds STILL was taking out marines. It was the only thing in that list that really worked and when he doesn't have that many units he can't afford to be taking wounds like that was slinging out. The deployment can hurt you with 36 range but - was still the MVP in that match so two would have been great. That is the only decision I'm sure of in a pure Tyranid list.

The Termegant/tervigon seems like a solid really annoying thing to fight against and I think putting down 30 wounds is going to trouble a lot of people but the GK using GOI could have done it. Especially combined with autocannon dreads putting down 14 wounds or something BUT...if they do that they aren't shooting at anything else and that infantry is then exposed to the exocrines.

That might be a possibility but I'm not sure how it would fit in with any kind of list synergy.

from what I've seen, he was not the one continueing it in here... drop this pettiness, insults like that are not welcome on Dakka.

 ShredderShards wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
This is hilarious Shuppet can't even let it go in this thread. Dear lord man you have a problem.

Luke I think you are right. More Trygons but even then, not sure I'd make it work.

One thing I would say is the Exocrine even though not that tough in the face of Las Cannons with 3 wounds STILL was taking out marines. It was the only thing in that list that really worked and when he doesn't have that many units he can't afford to be taking wounds like that was slinging out. The deployment can hurt you with 36 range but - was still the MVP in that match so two would have been great. That is the only decision I'm sure of in a pure Tyranid list.

The Termegant/tervigon seems like a solid really annoying thing to fight against and I think putting down 30 wounds is going to trouble a lot of people but the GK using GOI could have done it. Especially combined with autocannon dreads putting down 14 wounds or something BUT...if they do that they aren't shooting at anything else and that infantry is then exposed to the exocrines.

That might be a possibility but I'm not sure how it would fit in with any kind of list synergy.

from what I've seen, he was not the one continueing it in here... drop this pettiness, insults like that are not welcome on Dakka.

We left that thread, why is he here? It was a throwaway comment that didn't need to spawn off again but still relevant when we had a poll running on whether to keep this thread. Is it not enough that people wanted Tyranid only threads created a new one? Should this one get shut down as well? Are we not allowed to have a separate thread? Looks like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that I see the need for a poll, if the thread is no good it will die of its own accord.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 ShredderShards wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
This is hilarious Shuppet can't even let it go in this thread. Dear lord man you have a problem.

Luke I think you are right. More Trygons but even then, not sure I'd make it work.

One thing I would say is the Exocrine even though not that tough in the face of Las Cannons with 3 wounds STILL was taking out marines. It was the only thing in that list that really worked and when he doesn't have that many units he can't afford to be taking wounds like that was slinging out. The deployment can hurt you with 36 range but - was still the MVP in that match so two would have been great. That is the only decision I'm sure of in a pure Tyranid list.

The Termegant/tervigon seems like a solid really annoying thing to fight against and I think putting down 30 wounds is going to trouble a lot of people but the GK using GOI could have done it. Especially combined with autocannon dreads putting down 14 wounds or something BUT...if they do that they aren't shooting at anything else and that infantry is then exposed to the exocrines.

That might be a possibility but I'm not sure how it would fit in with any kind of list synergy.

from what I've seen, he was not the one continueing it in here... drop this pettiness, insults like that are not welcome on Dakka.

We left that thread, why is he here? It was a throwaway comment that didn't need to spawn off again but still relevant when we had a poll running on whether to keep this thread. Is it not enough that people wanted Tyranid only threads created a new one? Should this one get shut down as well? Are we not allowed to have a separate thread? Looks like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that I see the need for a poll, if the thread is no good it will die of its own accord.

I'm one of the main people who said to make this thread. Since this thread went up I've been in here both reading AND contributing.

I responded to a completely unnecessary sideways comment made in here that was utterly incorrect, and now I'M the one who "can't let it go"? And now you are throwing personal insults at me?

You are so clearly biased and are just being toxic about this no matter what, this is three threads running now. You literally entered the last thread just to tell people that if they are going to play competitively they should just quit the game. What is the matter with you dude? Wish we could just discuss the game but apparently that's too much to expect from certain members of this site.

Can we stop it with the meta posts? There are two threads. If you wanne discuss it make a 3rd thread doscussing it in the general forum. In the meantime lets talk tacticz.

I was wondering how peoole feel on target saturations. Is it a good for idea to bring a nidzilla list or a non MC list to negate regular weapons or multiwound weapons? In the non MC list you can just grab primes with adrenal glands as your synapse. Just pile up on gaunts of both kinds and garagoyles. Just watch what those lascannons can do then.

Reading the comments from a 3rd party perspective.

SHUPPET comes off as reasonable

Jaq Draco Lives comes off as toxic, I have no idea why you've taken personal offense to everything SHUPPET says.

I'd honestly be embarrassed at some of the stuff you've posted.

@Niiai while it's all good to tell people to stop with nonsense and get on topic, you should lead by example. Not have your say then forbid others from having theirs. Not to mention the hyperbole in your comments is a little ridiculous.

If any of you actually want to stay on topic in either of these threads it's easy. Don't reply to the off topic post, ignore them. They'll die of there own accord.

For target saturation you definitely want a mix. Nids rightfully so once again have the cheapest MCs in the game. We can bring lots of big bugs and little ones in the one list. I'm having a lot of success with throwaway 20 man Hormagaunt squads, DS Trygons w/ warriors and a Scythed Hierodule with SL in the backfield.

People tunnel vision hard on a Hierodule, with SL it can move 36'' a turn + a 3d6 minus the lowest roll charge. No one bubble wraps perfectly and it can move over infantry. Trygons are insane at melee in their own right. They may be squishy but no one is shooting at them with a Hierodule in their face.

nvm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not posting anymore off topic so let's drop it. As I did on the other thread

After seeing how easy it is to strip wounds I'm of two minds on the dimachron

The dimachaeron is good but I feel that you really need to catalyst him and Swarmlord slingshot him into combat so he can get his 5++ ASAP. Otherwise, he's just another sad Trygon with too few wounds and no save against the stuff that wants to kill him. That being said, once you HAVE the 5++ and FNP rocking, then you're really cooking with salami.

New weird idea against Stormraven spam

Heirophant
2x 10 Termagants

Could work on a team tournament, to have a counter against knights and the Stormraven spam.

Some tournaments are talking about banning models with 30+ wounds. I think it would be unlikely that most events would allow a Hierophant at 2k. And you're correct that it would only work in a team event like that. Taking that to a tournament would likely result in you going winless.

Honestly, the Hierophant is not about winning, it is about having a lot of fun in the process.

 luke1705 wrote:
The dimachaeron is good but I feel that you really need to catalyst him and Swarmlord slingshot him into combat so he can get his 5++ ASAP. Otherwise, he's just another sad Trygon with too few wounds and no save against the stuff that wants to kill him. That being said, once you HAVE the 5++ and FNP rocking, then you're really cooking with salami.

Having just played a Dimachaeron against a Primaris+Termie list, I am really not feeling him. I managed the optimal situation of getting him into melee T1 almost unscathed, and then getting the Invuln up. However, he failed to even eat a whole squad of Primaris, then got tied up and whittled down by Storm Shield termies, against which he did very little. I feel like 6 attacks, even hitting on 2+s and wounding likely on 2-3, is frankly not enough, he can only kill a max of 6 models and the sort of multiwound stuff he wants to charge is likely going to have a decent invuln. But even if it doesn't, he only has -2 AP and he might end up rolling a 1 on the D3 and not even killing a primaris. I feel like what you pay for is the speed - the 12" is certainly nice, but he just isn't durable enough, nor killy enough, I found.

 Niiai wrote:
Can we stop it with the meta posts? There are two threads. If you wanne discuss it make a 3rd thread doscussing it in the general forum. In the meantime lets talk tacticz.

I was wondering how peoole feel on target saturations. Is it a good for idea to bring a nidzilla list or a non MC list to negate regular weapons or multiwound weapons? In the non MC list you can just grab primes with adrenal glands as your synapse. Just pile up on gaunts of both kinds and garagoyles. Just watch what those lascannons can do then.

I think that something like Nidzilla and all-in infantry does not work as good as before.

Nidzilla was hurt by the fact that you can often wound the monsters on 5+ with ordinary guns. Also the anti-tank weapons like LasCans are very good against them and can kill a Carnifex in two shots. Besides the Fexes got cheaper, but also a Dakkafex is much worse now and the other monsters are quite expensive.

All-in infantry can imho just work with a lot of Genestealers and other 1 wound models. But it is not good when you have some multi wound infantery like Hive Guard and such. You will normally want to have plenty of them, but they are also easy prey for the AT weapons. So you do not cancel the effectivness of the AT weaponry at alll.

Benlisted wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The dimachaeron is good but I feel that you really need to catalyst him and Swarmlord slingshot him into combat so he can get his 5++ ASAP. Otherwise, he's just another sad Trygon with too few wounds and no save against the stuff that wants to kill him. That being said, once you HAVE the 5++ and FNP rocking, then you're really cooking with salami.

Having just played a Dimachaeron against a Primaris+Termie list, I am really not feeling him. I managed the optimal situation of getting him into melee T1 almost unscathed, and then getting the Invuln up. However, he failed to even eat a whole squad of Primaris, then got tied up and whittled down by Storm Shield termies, against which he did very little. I feel like 6 attacks, even hitting on 2+s and wounding likely on 2-3, is frankly not enough, he can only kill a max of 6 models and the sort of multiwound stuff he wants to charge is likely going to have a decent invuln. But even if it doesn't, he only has -2 AP and he might end up rolling a 1 on the D3 and not even killing a primaris. I feel like what you pay for is the speed - the 12" is certainly nice, but he just isn't durable enough, nor killy enough, I found.

Just what I feared. He might be good situationally but just not good enough. I'm really only feeling the love for multi wound models that are reliable and/or carry buffs (as mathammer wise I don't think they are durable enough). Exocrine and perhaps Tervigon, Swarmlord, Biovore (for the cheapness not really a monster but a pain to remove)

What do people think of the swarmlord with tyrant guards? With the swarmlord you can use trygons, have them pop up, and then use the swarmlords abilaty to move the trygon, and then make a charge. Seems like a very good way to make a big threath bubble. The trygon is at it's best when it is in CC with the opponent at full wounds. If you winn the fight at the end of his CC step you can probably charge something else.

Edit:

Come to think of it, raveners with rending tallons might be better for this. They have a move of 12. And they cna multi charge.

Swarmlord moves 9, runs at least 1, has a range of 6 for his abilaty (so say 5 because you have to be within 6) raveners has a move of 12, and then you can charge at least 2, and you need to be 1 inch close.

That is a threat range of at least 30. Seems quite good.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:


Just what I feared. He might be good situationally but just not good enough. I'm really only feeling the love for multi wound models that are reliable and/or carry buffs (as mathammer wise I don't think they are durable enough). Exocrine and perhaps Tervigon, Swarmlord, Biovore (for the cheapness not really a monster but a pain to remove)

I think you're selling the Dimachaeron a little short. He's definitely good. If I was grading units and GSC genestealers were an A+, the Dimachaeron would definitely still be a solid B+, maybe an A-. You really can't get all that much more for only 200 points. I think the trap is sending him in unsupported. If he's the only thing up the table after turn 1, yeah he's going to get focused down and die, invuln or no invuln, FNP or no FNP. FWIW though, I'm ok with my opponent dedicating themselves to killing a T6 3+/5++, FNP'd model with a bucket of wounds.

He can't deal with 3++ models but nothing in the game can really do that effectively. It's best to send in cheap units with volume of fire, ideally with -1 rend against terminators specifically, so they're taking their 3++, but we're not wasting more rend on them.

Anyone know some really cheap units that have a ton of close combat attacks that have -1 rend on their basic attacks who could also maybe even take an invulnerable save against terminators?

Nah guess we don't have anything that could deal with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:


Come to think of it, raveners with rending tallons might be better for this. They have a move of 12. And they cna multi charge.

Swarmlord moves 9, runs at least 1, has a range of 6 for his abilaty (so say 5 because you have to be within 6) raveners has a move of 12, and then you can charge at least 2, and you need to be 1 inch close.

That is a threat range of at least 30. Seems quite good.

It is. I've done the same thing with Genestealers, but if I were running Raveners, I would absolutely use Swarmlord on them. As long as you can deploy Swarmlord after whatever you want the raveners to charge, you'll get it. And even if you can't get swarmy in range (hammer and anvil or something) it's still a 9" charge. Save a command point for those boys and you'll make it roughly 50% of the time.

Or you could be like me and make 3 8" charge rolls in the same turn, 1 even using a command point re-roll

The reason for raveners over genstealers is because they have deep strike. This lets you be garantert a charge in a much bigger degree,

Thoughts on a Walking Tyrant? Is anyone considering them and what weapons would you take? What would you use it for?

I have no firsthand experience with a walking tyrant. But I would recomand some form of mellee weapon. It is also one of few BS3+ in our army, so maybe a strangelthorn or heavy venom cannon?

 Niiai wrote:
Q1: Does 9 warriors justefy a prime?

Q2: Venom cannons or stranglethorn cannons? Spinefist, devourer or what's-it's-name as regular guns?

Looking back at this one, I know I love having the prime involved, but my games have been fairly small so far. Prime stays near warriors, broodlord stays near genestealers, and that's about it.

But what do you guys think is typically better if taking the above mentioned 9 warriors.. 1 unit of 9, or 3 units of 3? Is more in the group usually better or worse?

1 group of 9 is better then 3 groups of 3. They are descent in mellee so you are not worried about them getting charged. When they start dying you can remove the bare moddels first, meaning special weapons survive for loger.

Tarendal wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Q1: Does 9 warriors justefy a prime?

Q2: Venom cannons or stranglethorn cannons? Spinefist, devourer or what's-it's-name as regular guns?

Looking back at this one, I know I love having the prime involved, but my games have been fairly small so far. Prime stays near warriors, broodlord stays near genestealers, and that's about it.

But what do you guys think is typically better if taking the above mentioned 9 warriors.. 1 unit of 9, or 3 units of 3? Is more in the group usually better or worse?

Niiai wrote:1 group of 9 is better then 3 groups of 3. They are descent in mellee so you are not worried about them getting charged. When they start dying you can remove the bare moddels first, meaning special weapons survive for loger.

In this edition I think often bigger units are better. However, unless you have a quite immobile army you will often end up splitting your army up, and 3x3 units can cover a huge deal more ground in terms of synapse. Also easier to claim cover, and to hide them behind LoS terrain.

Astmeister (or others) would you give me your thoughts on Biovore.

I think Deepstriking is a big thing in this addition. And Tyranids lack of range. Now I know their damage output isn't great, guaranteed. Sometimes they'll pull good but not always, guaranteed disruptions or wounds. If targeting elite infantry I think they will pull their points back.

But a unit of 4 for a paltry 132 points will cover any backfield deployment and at T4 with 4 wounds are a little bit of a pain to get rid of.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Astmeister (or others) would you give me your thoughts on Biovore.

I think Deepstriking is a big thing in this addition. And Tyranids lack of range. Now I know their damage output isn't great, guaranteed. Sometimes they'll pull good but not always, guaranteed disruptions or wounds. If targeting elite infantry I think they will pull their points back.

But a unit of 4 for a paltry 132 points will cover any backfield deployment and at T4 with 4 wounds are a little bit of a pain to get rid of.

Max unit size for Biovores is 3 I think.
My short review for them: Biovores are absolutely fantastic!
Long review can come later if anyone wants to know why i think that.

How are biovores fantastic? I would like to know more.

 Astmeister wrote:
Thoughts on a Walking Tyrant? Is anyone considering them and what weapons would you take? What would you use it for?

The strategy changes. With the BS 3 its great to give him a cannon. But since he isn't a flyer he can't fly away from combat and shoot. So you basically give him long range cannon, and stay out of deny witch so you can cast your 2 psychic powers. If you give him a second shooty weapon then you might as well give him fly. So you give him a melee weapon and charge in for support or to mop stuff up.
Not that great considering the cost.

 Astmeister wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Astmeister (or others) would you give me your thoughts on Biovore.

I think Deepstriking is a big thing in this addition. And Tyranids lack of range. Now I know their damage output isn't great, guaranteed. Sometimes they'll pull good but not always, guaranteed disruptions or wounds. If targeting elite infantry I think they will pull their points back.

But a unit of 4 for a paltry 132 points will cover any backfield deployment and at T4 with 4 wounds are a little bit of a pain to get rid of.

Max unit size for Biovores is 3 I think.
My short review for them: Biovores are absolutely fantastic!
Long review can come later if anyone wants to know why i think that.

Biovores work best if your strategy gives you the opportunity to make the most out of the floating mines. If you can prevent the enemy to use cheap lasgun/bolter fire to take down the mines, then the either have to use big guns to take them down or take a floating mine in the face. Also getting an enemy unit in close combat prevent them from using overwatch shooting against each individual mine.

Biovores
At the moment Biovores can shoot without needing line of sight and do Mortal Wounds when they hit.
They share the place with Hive Guard of being the only artillery in the Tyranid arsenal. Where the Hive Guard is the raw power version of artillery, the Biovores are much more specialized and sneaky.
Unlike all previous editions the Biovores are not good against weak infantry swarms. Rather they are very good at reliably pinging off some important wounds from very heavy targets or other artillery tanks or heavy weapons teams (preferably Devastators).
So I often read that they do too few damage making only 1-2 on average. But they can put this nearly anywhere on the field and extremely reliable without being afraid of any retaliation! Also if you compare them with most other units from the Tyranids, which unit can really say that it puts down reliably 1-2 wounds off even the hardest targets like Magnus or an Imperial Knight? For me the way to use them: You use them at the end of all the other shooting from your army to get rid of the important wounds! If a Leman Russ is 1-4 wounds above it's stat changing wound count in the end of the shooting phase... hit em with the biovore mines! Decreasing the stats of an expensive model in the opponents army can be huge.
There is however a reason, why you will often not use the tactic above. That is the insane movement denial capability of the Spore Mines. If you miss, you can place some Mines next to the enemy unit you shot at. So you could in principal walk with the Biovores to make them hit on -1 with their heavy weapons and block the movement of a tank for example. Of coures a lot of units will not be completely blocked by the spore mines, but as long as they got slowed down this might already be worth it. Remember that the enemy cannot shoot the mines before their units movement...
So all this comes for a unit which has a size of 1+ and a prize of 36 pts. On top of that the Biovores have 4W 4+ Save and will most likely be in cover and out of line of sight, having a 3+ Save.

I don't see any reason not to take them in most lists, unless you have a very special build or going all out attack.

But do the mines that miss really deny that much movement? Most armies have small arms fire, they can just pop them or walk around then. You make a 3" cicle they have to avoid, that is it.

The cost of that wounds is also ver high. One model deals and averadge 0,5 wounds each round. That is very expensive compared to other units, most notably the hive guard.

 Niiai wrote:
But do the mines that miss really deny that much movement? Most armies have small arms fire, they can just pop them or walk around then. You make a 3" cicle they have to avoid, that is it.

The cost of that wounds is also ver high. One model deals and averadge 0,5 wounds each round. That is very expensive compared to other units, most notably the hive guard.

Mine 27 biovores really deny a lot of movement (see picture below). I like it when my tyranid army can go; 'you know what, I'am just going to shoot for a few turns before I deepstrike the rest' I combine them with devourer gaunts to make sure I got enough anti-infantry also.

 Niiai wrote:
But do the mines that miss really deny that much movement? Most armies have small arms fire, they can just pop them or walk around then. You make a 3" cicle they have to avoid, that is it.

The cost of that wounds is also ver high. One model deals and averadge 0,5 wounds each round. That is very expensive compared to other units, most notably the hive guard.

Imagine a standard unit of a tank or 5 models.

That unit has a general footprint.

Now pick a line, with points representing spore mines. Each mine cannot have units move within 1" and the mine can move & charge a (admittedly) short distance. With only a few mines you can cover a large area. Granted, by targeting units, you will be deploying Biovore launched mines in proximity and might not be able to get optimal positioning but still, you achieve two (three?) things;

1) Movement denial - physically preventing units to move within 1" of an enemy mode. Great success!

2) Decision Apathy - You are causing your opponents to make more decisions and thus more mistakes. You are interrupting the game plan with extremely low amounts of effort.

3) Boo factor - Overreacting to a perceived threat. Can work quite well too! If we're being really fair, any amount of shooting on the shooting output from a 36pt model, which may have already effected the above two points, is really good. Average unit size is what, 100pts-150pts? Good return!