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Well without thinking through pros and cons of each unit you can't start thinking synergy.


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For instance I have a lot of genestealers with a trygon and swarmlord, I felt I needed more support in putting down obstacles/fire support so I add the biovore and extra exocrine.

Because I know they are good, swap out the swarmlord for a malanthrope to protect some back field and free up more points for a more combined movement synergy. That might all be a load of bollocks of course but its through thinking about units I got to that bollocks

shogun wrote:

Players are all rating individual units and discussing about putting rending claws or talons on their hive tyrants. It all useless if you don't look at the compleet picture and the synergy between the different units that make an army. Doing the math on a hive tyrant setting is useless if it gets shot to pieces right away.

It's a lot of 'paper/rock/scissors situations anyway and it depends on the missions and 'meta' how things will evolve. A bunch of MC's running forward could make you win the mission (board control) but it will not win a tournament. In this edition the armies that could effectively wipe others of the board are the big winners.

GSC Genestealers are a great deal but every army can effectively make units deepstrike/reserve at a save distance. Astra M army only needs about 3 scout sentinals and those genestealers are better off deploying normally then using cult ambush. And after that the get shot to pieces.

Benlisted wrote:

Meiotics - C+
More expensive than the other two spore options, however, due to what is effectively Infiltration, they are fantastic movement/deep strike blockers, and pose a more scary threat of mortal wounds to advancing foes. Thus serve a different role, but one nothing else in the army does.

I got a shooty tyranid army and if I'am allowed forgeworld models then these are a must have so thats a A+ score for me. The create a 24+ inch bubble 'get of my lawn' bubble against deep strike/reserve units.

If a Unit is just better with Option A than Option B, why should it not matter? I mean that does not change any synergy effects or something whatsoever.
There might be situations when you say: Hey, the HVC is better on the Tyrant in my army than the Deatspitters, because it fits better in my army concept and helps me mitigate my weakness. But apart from that I don't think it is irrelevant to talk about units and their loadout individually.


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 Zande4 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
But the melee power of the scythed degrade, where the barbed stays the same.

Well not entirely true.

Discounting the fact that the Barbed's biggest draw is its shooting and it goes out the window quicker than the Scythed's melee

At 1-5 the thing is cactus anyway.

At full wounds it's 8 3+ vs 5 3+

At 6-10 it's 6 4+ vs 4 3+

So with RR 1s at 6-10 that's 4.5 vs 3.1 in favour of the Scythed.

At 1 - 5 it's 1.33 vs 2.33 in favour of the Barbed, however the Barbed is BS6+ at these wounds

That is very enlightening, thanks!

Has anyone played with a malanthrope yet? I think getting his bonus online could be very dificult.

And he is not very 'fighty'.

 Niiai wrote:
Has anyone played with a malanthrope yet? I think getting his bonus online could be very dificult.

And he is not very 'fighty'.

No, but I plan too and its simply to babysit behind a pair of exocrines and be a safe warlord (he can't be targeted unless someone deepstrikes behind which is why I'll have biovores there)

I think -1 to hit on two 220 odd monsters is a worthwhile way to spend 90 points really and since we need HQs and none of them are that good I'll go cheap (except broodlord he is ace)

Hmmm... if all our guns needs a special detachment for synapse, then we should perhaps calculate that into the cost of wounds per model.

Devil gaunts out of a trygon prime would come of worse then devil gaunts who walk in the synapse blob.

Yes I can see that, the only difference is devilgants out of a prime have waaaay more utility since they can do immediate damage potentially where opponent least wants it. You have to factor utility


I'll answer that question with a question of my own. Rippers are cheap at 33p, can steal objectives...auto include? Single unit of 33p? 3x3 units at 99p? 100p out of a list of 2000 is nothing really, good units for hiding in cover too. I've got one unit from forgeworld and damn its gorgeous...I'd love more!

Jaq Draco lives wrote:Yes I can see that, the only difference is devilgants out of a prime have waaaay more utility since they can do immediate damage potentially where opponent least wants it. You have to factor utility


I'll answer that question with a question of my own. Rippers are cheap at 33p, can steal objectives...auto include? Single unit of 33p? 3x3 units at 99p? 100p out of a list of 2000 is nothing really, good units for hiding in cover too. I've got one unit from forgeworld and damn its gorgeous...I'd love more!

It depends, does the rest of your units either drop in their face and wreck havoc or stay back and shoot? If you already drop 20 guants or genestealers in the enemies front line then those 3 extra models are not adding a lot. If you already got biovores or hive guards in the backfield then those rippers are not helping there. Playing 5/6 flying hive tyrants? Then you either win and are capable of flying towards the objectives in the end but if the get shot down it doesn't matter.

I would at least go for one unit to just claim that one objective that is out of reach.

Niiai wrote:Has anyone played with a malanthrope yet? I think getting his bonus online could be very dificult.

And he is not very 'fighty'.

Malanthrope is there for the -1 to hit bonus, so if you want to get the best out either use him for backfield protection or drop him in and give your assault units protection at the front.

Benlisted wrote:

If a Unit is just better with Option A than Option B, why should it not matter? I mean that does not change any synergy effects or something whatsoever.
There might be situations when you say: Hey, the HVC is better on the Tyrant in my army than the Deatspitters, because it fits better in my army concept and helps me mitigate my weakness. But apart from that I don't think it is irrelevant to talk about units and their loadout individually.

But now you are talking about your "army concept" and "mitigating weaknesses" so that's a way of looking at the complete picture that makes an army-list. But this topic is about 'tactica' and I read a lot of comments about 'what tool is better to have' but I don't read what the want to use it for. A Hammer is a great tool. We can discuss what kind of hammer is best for hammering, but it is useless for drilling a hole.

New FW Xenos FaQ is out! Malanthrope power level to 5, given fly and reworded to affect units. So basically confirmed our best HQ lol. Stonecrushers only give up 1(!) attack to use the flail, which is insane and one of the best interpretations we could've ended up with. Hierodules' scytals corrected, only scythes has two and gets that extra attack. Dimachaeron's double strength thing adjusted to 6s to hit as well.

The poll is over, so we are going to keep this thread.

The FW FAQ seems to be pretty good and clearing up everything.

power level 5...does that mean the points change from 90?

Nope. It just means he is power level 5.

Did anyone try the not so amazing units yet and wants to say a few words about them? Maleceptor, Haruspex and such....

I am on a painting mission, no place to play during the summer.

Toxicrene
The tentacled beast is now a Heavy Support choice. It has plenty of attacks, some very short ranged anti-infantry shooting and unfortunately low AP.
Does that make it good? No!

I actually think that the Toxicrene is one of the worst units in the entire Tyranid arsenal. It is meant to be used as mass infantery killer. First of all Tyranids do not really need this, because they have Genestealers, Hormagants, Termagants, Raveners etc. for this. Second the Toxicrene just has WS 4+ and AP -1 on most of its weapons. This means that the thing can kill about 3-4 Guard Infantry in melee, which is quite frankly underwhelming for a huge monster which should be good at killing infantry. Against heavy infantry or vehicles it just fails misserably, if you look at its naked stats.
Okay, it has one signature ability and that is "always strike first". This can be pretty nice, if you will be attacked by enemy units. But on the other hand: It is good against Orks, Guard etc. so where should at make a difference when 30 Orks attack it? It simply does not matter in most of the cases that it can strike first, because his sheer killiness is just too bad.
I think it would be good, if GW would have given it some kind of area attack like the Stone Crusher with his flails. But as it is, the Toxicrene seems to be pretty bad overall and not worth it.

 Niiai wrote:
Has anyone played with a malanthrope yet? I think getting his bonus online could be very dificult.

And he is not very 'fighty'.

It does not need to kill the unit / last model by itself, it can just watch and learn - and give you the bonus.
If you use it to support your assault units this should be easy.

And after supporting them for 1-3 turns and providing the bonus afterwards it may even die because it fullfilled it`s purpose + the bonus doesn`t need it to stay alive.

 Grotrebel wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Has anyone played with a malanthrope yet? I think getting his bonus online could be very dificult.

And he is not very 'fighty'.

It does not need to kill the unit / last model by itself, it can just watch and learn - and give you the bonus.
If you use it to support your assault units this should be easy.

And after supporting them for 1-3 turns and providing the bonus afterwards it may even die because it fullfilled it`s purpose + the bonus doesn`t need it to stay alive.

But yout oponent can just remove models leaving the malantrope with no one to fight. Come leadership test, no nom gor the malanthrope. This is of course on multibmodel units.

If i am gonne make carnifexes to be all comers against all units, I was thinking a ranged weapon and mellee weapon.

Probably 2 scything tallons and a ranged weapon. But what ranged weapon?

Devourer or deathspitter? Is the 6 points worth the s7 ap1?

I don't like the hybrid fexes. You either go all melee or all dakka.
The only possible hybrid is a gun+ crushing claws.

If you got a set of scythes, then it is really impossible for 6 points to not get a second set that increases your melee output by more than 45%.

How is the mellee output increased by 45% by getting one extra attack?

Oh that's right, you get the reroll 1 even without the double scythe. Rerolling and 1 extra attack equal 45,8%. 1 Extra attack equals 25% only.

My hybrid fexes have been ok (Deathspitter w/slimer, 1x ScyTal, Bone Mace, AGlands).

They're not expensive, have a nice pile of non degrading wounds, can sometime kill a marine or plink some wounds off bikes/vehicle.

In some ways they are distraction carnifex because for a cheap ~100 pts ish they are still T6 which makes a lot of bolters/gauss/lasguns start to suck. Then they end up with 2-3 dead MEQ's per combat phase...

The math can show you better, but for me that simply cannot be ignored by my opponent, who is usually spamming las cannons at my flyant.

Enemies don't want to sit in melee with a Carnifex that eats MEQs or destroy elite infantry with ScyTal's 3 damage. But they usually don't want to sit in rapid fire range either, leaving them in the awkward ~20-24 single shot bolter range, where we can still push the fexes up and get a few hits with Deathspitters.

Also, don't shoot BS4+ Carnifexes at marines in cover with a 2+, often re-rolling saves of 1 for whatever marine thing that is. You just waste shots. Instead put them somewhere you can remove bodies. I usually focus on holding objectives.

Spoletta wrote:
I don't like the hybrid fexes. You either go all melee or all dakka.
The only possible hybrid is a gun+ crushing claws.

If you got a set of scythes, then it is really impossible for 6 points to not get a second set that increases your melee output by more than 45%.

Ayyy don't use crushing claws. Complete noob trap. They're god awful against everything

But what gun on hybrid fexes? Deathspittet or devourer? I am discounteng strangelthorn and venom cannons (should I?). Having a hybrid fex seems far better then pure mellee fex, even if you run fewer times + adrenal glands.

Deathspitters all the way. The bonus strength is good but the -1 AP takes them over the devourers.

My question is, bone mace or thresher scythe? The scythe is actually quite useful against hordes and it doesn't force you to remove an attack from the scything talons against multi wound models.

DoggieDoo wrote:
My hybrid fexes have been ok (Deathspitter w/slimer, 1x ScyTal, Bone Mace, AGlands).

They're not expensive, have a nice pile of non degrading wounds, can sometime kill a marine or plink some wounds off bikes/vehicle.

In some ways they are distraction carnifex because for a cheap ~100 pts ish they are still T6 which makes a lot of bolters/gauss/lasguns start to suck. Then they end up with 2-3 dead MEQ's per combat phase...

The math can show you better, but for me that simply cannot be ignored by my opponent, who is usually spamming las cannons at my flyant.

Enemies don't want to sit in melee with a Carnifex that eats MEQs or destroy elite infantry with ScyTal's 3 damage. But they usually don't want to sit in rapid fire range either, leaving them in the awkward ~20-24 single shot bolter range, where we can still push the fexes up and get a few hits with Deathspitters.

Also, don't shoot BS4+ Carnifexes at marines in cover with a 2+, often re-rolling saves of 1 for whatever marine thing that is. You just waste shots. Instead put them somewhere you can remove bodies. I usually focus on holding objectives.

I think that fexes are T7.

 Zande4 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I don't like the hybrid fexes. You either go all melee or all dakka.
The only possible hybrid is a gun+ crushing claws.

If you got a set of scythes, then it is really impossible for 6 points to not get a second set that increases your melee output by more than 45%.

Ayyy don't use crushing claws. Complete noob trap. They're god awful against everything

Your math must be wrong again. Pretty sure that the crushing claws are better than ST against T7+.

what about Mawlocks? i watched Geoff "incontrol" video on you tube and he use two in his BAO list, im still unsure of them anyway.

mawlocks are great

Edit:

How should I tool out some carnifexes? I do not like magnets!

I want to make 2 hybrids, and 2 dakka.

The hybrid is 2 scything tallons, and one shooting weapon. I want these to be good all around-

The 2 dakka are made for shooting down things.

They should all fall withing 'distraction carnifex'. I know stonecrusher is best for the mellee only option. But I don't have the money to buy the from FW.

Contex: I am diving into my tyranid colextion from 5th/6th edition. I was in the prosses of building 2 tyranofexes when the real model came out. I am also converting back 2 tervigons to carnifexes.

 blackmage wrote:
what about Mawlocks? i watched Geoff "incontrol" video on you tube and he use two in his BAO list, im still unsure of them anyway.

I think their great but the fulfil a specific role in your armylist and you need other units to back them up. With great positioning the can do a nice amount of mortal wounds and still pack 8 attacks against infantry at only half the cost of a trygon, but with the same amount of wounds/3+ save. Also no enemy units can keep them outside 9 inch, the just drop in outside 1 inch everywhere. Enemy units moving away? Burrow and see you later.

The work best in a heavy MC-list but a lot of players go for the big genestealer units and then the really don't fit in.

The carnifex can be equipped for several different roles.
Some of this depends on whats in the rest of your army. Some of this depends on meta. And sometimes depends on points.

Monstrous crushing claws not really worth it. Strength 16 seems to be the magic number to get so you can wound T8 on 2+. Otherwise just deal with spamming +3 to wound.... Which isn't that bad, lol.
That -1 to hit is huge. Not sure why this got passed testing. But it looks cool.

Stranglethorn or hvc not worth it for the points. Maybe in smaller point games where it could be hard to take other more viable shooty units.

So if you want melee you should go with the 2 scything talons. Make sure to have a plan to turn1 charge with this guy. Bone mace or thresher scyth jist depends if you want to save 5pts and meta dependant.

4 devorers with thresher scyth tail makes a great attack spammer. Deathspitters obviously good but depends on if you want to save 12 points. And if plan to still get him into combat.

Bio-plasma attack. ...not really worth it but if you got 9 points on a shootyfex the go for it.


Lots of options.