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Well, if codex creep is inevitable I welcome all the space marine codexes being first.

But seriously folks, even a codex a month is remarkable compared to the old pace. Hopefully they take actual feedback into account and in the first six months we see something, anything, but space marines.

Back in my day we waited 12 years for codexes and we damn well liked it!

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Well, if codex creep is inevitable I welcome all the space marine codexes being first.

But seriously folks, even a codex a month is remarkable compared to the old pace. Hopefully they take actual feedback into account and in the first six months we see something, anything, but space marines.

There is zero possibility that the first few take feedback into account. Publishing just doesn't happen that fast. Something published for July (as we are told about the SM codex) would have been finalized back in April or maybe early may. And that's a really big maybe.

Packing 10 into the second half of the year is a crazy pace. Balance is going to be dubious at best, as is editing and overall quality.

Mordian2016 wrote:
So a little while ago GW said there would not be codexes in 8th edition

Now we have indexes which are simple, relatively cheap and combine multiple armies in one book (a bit like the old 3rd ed rulebook)

So why are GW releasing codexes? I cant think of anything these codexes will add other than potentially bringing back the old gak from 7th ed- fractured rulesets and faction specific formations.

Or will they just be fluff and pretty pictures

Because: Money The Indexes are cool, and a good way to go...but a Codex is a proven formula for putting Fluff, art, and special rules (like Strategems) in one package.

Voss wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Well, if codex creep is inevitable I welcome all the space marine codexes being first.

But seriously folks, even a codex a month is remarkable compared to the old pace. Hopefully they take actual feedback into account and in the first six months we see something, anything, but space marines.

There is zero possibility that the first few take feedback into account. Publishing just doesn't happen that fast. Something published for July (as we are told about the SM codex) would have been finalized back in April or maybe early may. And that's a really big maybe.

Packing 10 into the second half of the year is a crazy pace. Balance is going to be dubious at best, as is editing and overall quality.

I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but how much experience do you have in publishing?

I am part of a group who worked on a kickstarter RPG. obviously we were smaller scale but we did manage to secure just over 500 backers at the physical book level to make and print our game (bound hardback)

I called around to find good places to print our book and used a relatively small print shop. we had to pay a deposit for the time of printing 500+ copies 2 months in advance in most places I called (including the one I used) but they only needed our final completed book a few days before it went to the bulk print and even then they had it done in a few days( unsure how long it actually took for them to print and bind) I don't know if GW uses their own print shop which seems like they might. but assuming they did not I can't imagine that an industrial scale shop would have a hard time making thousands upon thousands a day. The longest part was formatting pages and as GW had the fluff and art done that means only the finalization of adding points would need to be finished.

I can imagine they took feedback and at least had time to implement some if they intended to do so

"Why are codexes returning?"

Beacuse GW makes more money by selling books than selling miniatures/accessories.

 Galef wrote:
What are you talking about? All existing models have rules. The only things that "might" need adjusting are points values

Says the fething Eldar player who has a billion different options to choose from-- you have no room to speak, here, you already have tons of options to play around with. Not all armies are so lucky. And actually, NOT all models have rules. A lot of models were rendered illegal by the current rules. And on top of that, plenty of armies could use expansions because they're so very limited. Sisters have less choices total to choose from than you have elites choices. Orks desperately need new stuff to play around with to represent different styles of fluffy Ork armies. Chaos needs new rules at the very least to differentiate different Chaos Gods' cults. Imperial Guard could use some differentiation between the various regiment fighting styles. And so on and so forth. And let's not even get started on Inquisition...

 Melissia wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What are you talking about? All existing models have rules. The only things that "might" need adjusting are points values

Says the fething Eldar player who has a billion different options to choose from-- you have no room to speak, here, you already have tons of options to play around with. Not all armies are so lucky. And actually, NOT all models have rules. A lot of models were rendered illegal by the current rules. And on top of that, plenty of armies could use expansions because they're so very limited. Sisters have less choices total to choose from than you have elites choices. Orks desperately need new stuff to play around with to represent different styles of fluffy Ork armies. Chaos needs new rules at the very least to differentiate different Chaos Gods' cults. Imperial Guard could use some differentiation between the various regiment fighting styles. And so on and so forth. And let's not even get started on Inquisition...

This is all true, but the argument kind of falls apart when GW's not pumping out Codices for the armies that 'need' them. I'm a Blood Angels player, and I'm perfectly content with my current spread of options, but I'm sure we'll be on the sooner end of Codex releases along with the other colored Marines. If they were going to use the Codex books to flesh out some of the armies that got the short end, it'd be Primaris to flesh out the new releases, then something like Orks that obviously needs it, followed by DG for another new line release, then another of the busted armies, and so on.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
This is all true, but the argument kind of falls apart when GW's not pumping out Codices for the armies that 'need' them.

No it doesn't. If GW is pumping out codices, at least there's a possibility that an army that needs it will get one. If GW isn't making any additions or changes, there is no chance.

Without new books, the armies with tons of options will flourish as they always have, and everyone else will fething stagnate like Sisters have done for the past two decades. With new books, at the armies with tons of options will flourish as they always have, and everyone else at least stands a chance of getting something new to play with. Sisters of Battle haven't gotten a new unit since third edition-- many people play armies that have gotten new things every single edition, and so aren't impacted by this stagnation. I'd like every faction to get a codex so maybe, JUST FOR fething ONCE, they as an army have something new to play with, an experience so many apparently take for granted.

(edited to fix pronoun problem)

 Galef wrote:
My biggest hope is that they find a balance and that the Indexes are still valid.
For example, I play Eldar but I sometimes add Dark Eldar or Harlequin units to my lists to portray a Corsairs theme (without having to get the FW book). Hopefully, I can still use the rules printed in my Xenos 1 Index for those few DE units even after DE get there own Codex.
As I primarily play Eldar, getting the Eldar Codex is a given (sadly), but I'd like to still take 1-2 DE units without needing yet another expensive hard-cover book

The same is true of my Daemon army. I occasionally add 1-2 CSM units and even though CSM are getting their own codex soon, I hope it does not invalidate the rules that were JUST PRINTED in a book I just bought.

TL,DR: Codex additions are fine, Invalidating rules in the Indexes that were just released is horrible customer service.

-

The Codex FAQ clearly says that the new codex will supersede the corresponding parts of the Index.
And apparently it's more than just adjusting point costs for balance, as some units will have different rules.

Maybe they'll fix some current issues? Maybe they'll give back some lost flavour?

Or maybe they'll go back to normal GW operational procedures.

I'm 87.33333r% certain of the latter.

 Blackie wrote:
"Why are codexes returning?"

Beacuse GW makes more money by selling books than selling miniatures/accessories.

Ha Ha. No.

Off of that original list, new models for each faction with the codex was left off.

GW will have to do something to make the codexes more appealing than the indexes, so expect creep over the indexes to be coming, excused as "errata" or "fine-tuning". I don't think fluff alone will be enough to sell codexes, it didn't prove to be a successful experiments with Imperial Knights back in 6th.

As others have stated, I'm worried the forthcoming codexes will be at a pace that they can't be playtested, or after 6 months of dribbling out balanced codexes that don't overturn index purchases, Marketing changes gears to slam the creep into high gear.

I'm hoping any new interesting models come with their rules (the current Primaris Librarian/Captain seem to indicate this will be the case), and I can just keep using the indexes and the single datasheets for the new models.

Mordian2016 wrote:
Psychic bloat was one of the worst and most time consuming elements to 7th. I really hope they keep it simple.

7th Edition actually reduced Psychic Bloat (a little). It was way worse in the end of 6th. And in fact it began already in 5th, when Space Wolves came out.

Heh, I remember that. Man, the Space Wolf psychic shenanigans...

JAWS

OF THE

W O R L D

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F

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Back in my day we waited 12 years for codexes and we damn well liked it!

Still checking the mailbox everyday for my squat codex....maybe tomorrow the post will bring it you think?

I hope with codexes returning they will start to release datasheets online for free like they do with Warscrolls. You'll need the codex of course to run a mono-faction army, but for players that like to add little sections of allies (or build an Imperial Soup) list it gives them an the means to do it.

 Slinky wrote:

Mordian2016 wrote:
So a little while ago GW said there would not be codexes in 8th edition

Did they? I don't recall reading that - Where was it said?

This is something they call "A lie". You see, GW said from the very beginning that there WOULD be codexes and this poster said the opposite so he is creating a falsehood.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
JAWS

OF THE

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Don't forget Living Lightning!

Looking back at 4th edition Dark Angels codex is almost comical - there were grand total of two (2) Psychic Powers to choose from, and Ezekiel was special and knew a third. All of them were quite weak and nobody could cast more than one power per turn. Same story with Blood Angels, even Mephiston was weaksauce as a Psycher by later standards.
It's not even correct to talk about power creep when it comes to evolution of Psychic Powers, it was more like power tsunami.

 Bottle wrote:
I hope with codexes returning they will start to release datasheets online for free like they do with Warscrolls. You'll need the codex of course to run a mono-faction army, but for players that like to add little sections of allies (or build an Imperial Soup) list it gives them an the means to do it.

I agree.

I'll need Codexes for 4 factions, but I have individual/few models from another 6.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
JAWS

OF THE

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F

I'm having flashbacks just hearing that, please don't make me relive that horrible time. That was not a fun time to be a new IG player especially when 50% of your meta is space wolf players


I'm torn on these codexes, on the one hand everything they promise sounds nice but it was a really dick move to charge us for the indexes when some of them are getting replaced in less than a months time from the release. They should have released the indexes as free PDF's or something, that would've made this a lot more palatable compared to how they actually did it.

There's no way they've had time to listen to feedback on these initial indexes either. To print them at the scale necessary and ship them across the globe, it is simply not possible. We're talking tens of thousands of books that needed to have been started from the ground up, edited, sent to printer, printed, and shipped in about a month's time. If they really did wait till 8th dropped for a couple of weeks to tweak points and stuff in the codexes dropping first then they will have been on such a quick timetable that we'll be lucky if the thing is even readable and laid out correctly.

Also, anyone else incredibly annoyed these stupid codexes are going to be hardback? What happened to the softback codexes? Keep them softback and sell them at $25 like the indexes and people would've been perfectly happy with it. But instead they insist on "premium" hardbacks and odds are they're going to charge us around $40 per book. I was hoping we'd see consolidated books at least but if even deathguard is getting their own codex that pretty much kills any hope we have of something like a combined mechanicum codex for example.

As a new 40K player who purchased the rule book and two of the indexes I really don't mind the fact new army books are coming.

I get a good overview of each armies fluff, what units they have and there playstyle. It also means I can know many of my enemies without having to buy their individual books.

When individual army books are released I now know which ones I will be interested in and it will save we worrying about making the wrong decision. Yes rules will change and new things will be added however I hope it will provide more information and options for the faction I decide to build an army for.

Balance is always an issue however it has nothing to do with how quickly books are released and everything to do with the publishers decision on how powerful they want it to be relative to the ones before it. They have all the information to balance a new book, however making it more powerful means people are in many cases forced to buy new things...it is also safer from a sales perspective to make new things above average in power level.

I hope we see Tau JSJ return. Good to balance it as a command point ability.

 Bottle wrote:
I hope with codexes returning they will start to release datasheets online for free like they do with Warscrolls. You'll need the codex of course to run a mono-faction army, but for players that like to add little sections of allies (or build an Imperial Soup) list it gives them an the means to do it.

Yes, this would be wonderful. The free warscrolls and the ability to play a game with all of the rules i needed in one single place did a lot to help me get into AoS, and it would be nice here.

We knew Codexes were coming. Everyone in my gaming group bought the necessary index books to field our armies. And all of us have agreed to limit ourselves to the index builds until everyone has a Dex for their army or 9ed happens. If amazingly the new Dex releases aren't blowing up any semblence of balance we will consider opening this stance up.

Until then we will reserve the right to self FAQ the things we don't like. Like Daemons not being fieldable in unit sizes that adhere to their Gods sacred numbers. Our games after all, our rules. Go to a tourney or event outside our group and you just might get to enjoy whatever the new Dex releases bring. Don't like it and you can come back.

My money is that we will see AoS battalion like formations that let you drop a bunch of units as a single drop and blow up first turn shenanigans. I don't have to face it until I want too though.

Don't freak out.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

4) Selling books is profitable and they need to nickle and dime us as much as they can because more people are realising that buying 50p worth of plastic for £50 is a rip off.

Wow, way to use hyperbole to make yourself look really dumb.
Do you have any idea how much plastic injection moulds, machine, concept design and digital sculpting cost, as well as designing and engineering the sprue and packaging cost, not accounting for logistics and transport? Putting a price tag alone on the raw plastic and then pretend GW somehow transform plastic goo to the finished product with a flicker of their wand of evil sorcery, with no effort what so ever, is simply a very stupid statement. So bad that it even made me white knight for GW. *shudders*

Why are people upset about this? The indexes clearly lack enough depth and distinct mechanics to be suitable long term. They are a stop gap.

Relics, more than three psychic powers per faction and three warlord traits total are all excellent and honestly I'd be upset if they weren't planning to introduce them. New detachments, stratagems, and objectives are less essential but still fun. Not to mention chapter tactic equivalents are some of the best bits for adding unique flavor to an army. Do some people really not want these back? Why? Balance? 8th isn't balanced perfectly as is, this won't change that. Only solid responsive point updates might offer real balance.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Quite excited to see that others than Chaos Marines and Loyalist Marines are getting they version of chapter tactics/sub faction rules.

agreed, but it makes sense, of all the ideas that came out of 6th and 7th edition chapter tactics easily met with the most acclaim. the only complaints where, regularily "we want them too!"

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Voss wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Well, if codex creep is inevitable I welcome all the space marine codexes being first.

But seriously folks, even a codex a month is remarkable compared to the old pace. Hopefully they take actual feedback into account and in the first six months we see something, anything, but space marines.

There is zero possibility that the first few take feedback into account. Publishing just doesn't happen that fast. Something published for July (as we are told about the SM codex) would have been finalized back in April or maybe early may. And that's a really big maybe.

Packing 10 into the second half of the year is a crazy pace. Balance is going to be dubious at best, as is editing and overall quality.

I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but how much experience do you have in publishing?

A fair bit. I also follow companies in this and related industries that talk a lot about their printing experiences. What you describe below is... not what they're dealing with.

I am part of a group who worked on a kickstarter RPG. obviously we were smaller scale but we did manage to secure just over 500 backers at the physical book level to make and print our game (bound hardback)

I called around to find good places to print our book and used a relatively small print shop. we had to pay a deposit for the time of printing 500+ copies 2 months in advance in most places I called (including the one I used) but they only needed our final completed book a few days before it went to the bulk print and even then they had it done in a few days( unsure how long it actually took for them to print and bind) I don't know if GW uses their own print shop which seems like they might. but assuming they did not I can't imagine that an industrial scale shop would have a hard time making thousands upon thousands a day. The longest part was formatting pages and as GW had the fluff and art done that means only the finalization of adding points would need to be finished.

GW's problem is they aren't at the micro scale (500 odd copies is micro), and not on the big publisher scale (not many game companies are, especially not in the minis or RPG industry). So they basically have to rent time with their Chinese contractor [all GW game books are done in China] to get the books done [and they are doing thousands per day, just not of solely GW books- you reserve/rent free time on the presses months in advance], then shipped (by boat) back to various places around the world and manage the distribution with the regional branches of their own company and companies like Alliance and whomever. None of those steps are 'a few days.' Collectively, they add up to weeks, and the final version has to be there at the beginning of that process, before they're finished, printed, boxed, shipped, hit at customs*, unboxed, resorted, and re-distributed.

At no point is the book done and just 'adding points' a tiny step needing to be finished. That's glossing over a lot of testing and editing steps. And it certainly isn't true if they're trying to squeeze out 10 books in six months. GW writing and editing staff just isn't that big, and there is always the next deadline.


*yep. There was a rather infamous example of a privateer press book that got stuck at a customs warehouse for weeks under suspicion of being terrorist propaganda. Despite the aliens and kaiju...