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I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
For sure, especially given that the GW has suddenly decided Death Guard lack 1/2 the Chaos Space Marine units and instead get a lot of unique ones on their own that no one else can use.
Did that need to happen? No - I'm sure most DG players would rather have just gotten some unique Terminators and the Poxwalkers and maybe an HQ alongside Mortarion like the TSons did back in 7th.
And I'm sure both DG and TSon players a like would love to get their missing units back, and not be forced to run them as a different Legion to use them (and miss out on synergy bonuses).
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
For sure, especially given that the GW has suddenly decided Death Guard lack 1/2 the Chaos Space Marine units and instead get a lot of unique ones on their own that no one else can use.
Did that need to happen? No - I'm sure most DG players would rather have just gotten some unique Terminators and the Poxwalkers and maybe an HQ alongside Mortarion like the TSons did back in 7th.
And I'm sure both DG and TSon players a like would love to get their missing units back, and not be forced to run them as a different Legion to use them (and miss out on synergy bonuses).
But, GW is what GW is, and they do what they do.
And you're making assumptions as to what the DG codex will contain months before its release. Dakka posters are what Dakka posters are, and they do what they do.
New game essentially, place holder rules for all your models.
New codex's trickle out, and will be stronger then any old "legacy" models
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
New game essentially, place holder rules for all your models.
New codex's trickle out, and will be stronger then any old "legacy" models
Carbon copy except entirely different. Codexes will have old "legacy" models, while AoS is running a completely different warscrolls system.
At least make claims that aren't just factually wrong already.
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
For sure, especially given that the GW has suddenly decided Death Guard lack 1/2 the Chaos Space Marine units and instead get a lot of unique ones on their own that no one else can use.
Did that need to happen? No - I'm sure most DG players would rather have just gotten some unique Terminators and the Poxwalkers and maybe an HQ alongside Mortarion like the TSons did back in 7th.
And I'm sure both DG and TSon players a like would love to get their missing units back, and not be forced to run them as a different Legion to use them (and miss out on synergy bonuses).
But, GW is what GW is, and they do what they do.
And you're making assumptions as to what the DG codex will contain months before its release. Dakka posters are what Dakka posters are, and they do what they do.
I made 0 assumptions as to what the actual release will contain - unless of course you mean safe assumption the DG will keep the arbitrary limits they have in the Index in terms if crossover units.
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
For sure, especially given that the GW has suddenly decided Death Guard lack 1/2 the Chaos Space Marine units and instead get a lot of unique ones on their own that no one else can use.
Did that need to happen? No - I'm sure most DG players would rather have just gotten some unique Terminators and the Poxwalkers and maybe an HQ alongside Mortarion like the TSons did back in 7th.
And I'm sure both DG and TSon players a like would love to get their missing units back, and not be forced to run them as a different Legion to use them (and miss out on synergy bonuses).
But, GW is what GW is, and they do what they do.
And you're making assumptions as to what the DG codex will contain months before its release. Dakka posters are what Dakka posters are, and they do what they do.
I think over all it's a decent assumption. GW seems to be wanting to take the 4 cult legions and make them the chaos answer to space wolves etc.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
TheLumberJack wrote: I know I might sound crazy, but I hate that DG are getting a codex. I hate that to play different flavors of marines or chaos marines there are going to be many different books. I wish every legion/chapter just got some pages in the back as sub faction rules instead of multiple books
Death Guard get their own codex because Death Guard is getting a lot of new models; we know Mortarion and Death Guard Terminators are on the way, possibly some more things too. I doubt that the other traitor legions will get the same treatment.
Space Wolves, Blood angels etc have long proven a popular thing, I think GW is going to be giving chaos a similer treatment
For sure, especially given that the GW has suddenly decided Death Guard lack 1/2 the Chaos Space Marine units and instead get a lot of unique ones on their own that no one else can use.
Did that need to happen? No - I'm sure most DG players would rather have just gotten some unique Terminators and the Poxwalkers and maybe an HQ alongside Mortarion like the TSons did back in 7th.
And I'm sure both DG and TSon players a like would love to get their missing units back, and not be forced to run them as a different Legion to use them (and miss out on synergy bonuses).
But, GW is what GW is, and they do what they do.
And you're making assumptions as to what the DG codex will contain months before its release. Dakka posters are what Dakka posters are, and they do what they do.
I think over all it's a decent assumption. GW seems to be wanting to take the 4 cult legions and make them the chaos answer to space wolves etc.
I made 0 assumptions as to what the actual release will contain - unless of course you mean safe assumption the DG will keep the arbitrary limits they have in the Index in terms if crossover units.
Except for the one singular one I made, and even that isn't much of an assumption at all.
I never assumed what the release would give DG at all, just that the new limits that suddenly appeared in 8th from the Index will carry along to the codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 10:40:21
4) Selling books is profitable and they need to nickle and dime us as much as they can because more people are realising that buying 50p worth of plastic for £50 is a rip off.
Wow, way to use hyperbole to make yourself look really dumb.
Do you have any idea how much plastic injection moulds, machine, concept design and digital sculpting cost, as well as designing and engineering the sprue and packaging cost, not accounting for logistics and transport? Putting a price tag alone on the raw plastic and then pretend GW somehow transform plastic goo to the finished product with a flicker of their wand of evil sorcery, with no effort what so ever, is simply a very stupid statement. So bad that it even made me white knight for GW. *shudders*
Split that cost across how many kits each mould makes. So yeah, it was 51p of plastic, my bad.
4) Selling books is profitable and they need to nickle and dime us as much as they can because more people are realising that buying 50p worth of plastic for £50 is a rip off.
Wow, way to use hyperbole to make yourself look really dumb.
Do you have any idea how much plastic injection moulds, machine, concept design and digital sculpting cost, as well as designing and engineering the sprue and packaging cost, not accounting for logistics and transport? Putting a price tag alone on the raw plastic and then pretend GW somehow transform plastic goo to the finished product with a flicker of their wand of evil sorcery, with no effort what so ever, is simply a very stupid statement. So bad that it even made me white knight for GW. *shudders*
Split that cost across how many kits each mould makes. So yeah, it was 51p of plastic, my bad.
As long as armies stuck with the index don't become severly under-powered as it is in AoS with the legacy armies, I'm all for it. Gives them an opportunity to fix some of the points imbalances in the indexes.
4) Selling books is profitable and they need to nickle and dime us as much as they can because more people are realising that buying 50p worth of plastic for £50 is a rip off.
Wow, way to use hyperbole to make yourself look really dumb.
Do you have any idea how much plastic injection moulds, machine, concept design and digital sculpting cost, as well as designing and engineering the sprue and packaging cost, not accounting for logistics and transport? Putting a price tag alone on the raw plastic and then pretend GW somehow transform plastic goo to the finished product with a flicker of their wand of evil sorcery, with no effort what so ever, is simply a very stupid statement. So bad that it even made me white knight for GW. *shudders*
Split that cost across how many kits each mould makes. So yeah, it was 51p of plastic, my bad.
It's exaggerated but not entirely off. If you factor in personnel expenses, equipment, etc; GW makes (going off of memory here) in the neighborhood of 75-80% profit on each kit sold. I calculated it out several years ago, when I used to care, but now I just let my stock sit and generate dividends for me. They make about $100 bucks in profit off of a Knight if it's sold through a direct channel and about $60 if it's not (dollar amounts not pound for these two examples).
Here's a quick, dirty calculation, based off of the 1/2 year statement. Note, this won't be accurate as it includes all revenue but I'm too lazy to calculate it out to the Nth and would have to use the more detailed annual financial report to do so...anyway (I'm using dollar signs but mean pounds):
1. Revenue: 70,935,000
2. Cost of sales: 21,373,000
That's about 43% profit but it includes a great number of items that wouldn't count towards the actual cost required to make and ship a kit.
Also, other considerations include things like it's not necessary to buy new equipment with each new model and actually making an injection mold, in house, is really cheap if you already have equipment (pro-tip, GW owns equipment). GW's plant costs actually went down $476,000, year-on-year (which was down $33,000 from the previous year), as they need less new equipment (maintenance and breakage, etc). This increases a kit's profit margin as well.
There's a lot of nuance here that I won't go into but that's a quick, dirty rundown of some of the considerations involved.
On topic and completely just my opinion on the matter.
Books are bad for a model company and I'd hate for them to take a step back into a failed business approach when the index approach was such a good idea. A $60-$70 rulebook and a $50 codex represents a barrier to entry for new players. The assumption they should be making, as a model company, is that the more money spent on books, which are NOT generally high margin, means less money spent on models. Privateer Press figured this out (ironic since the "press" company pushes books less than the "game" company) and created a model whereby they provide a large number of ways to get the rules into people's hands so that they can spend their money on the models/game.
Another funny thing, and a bit interesting. As protective as they are about their IP, you'd think they'd care less about the rules since, by law, the rules of games are not subject to copyright protections. Sure, they can trademark names, proper titles, pictures, etc but the rules themselves are not protected; so why spend so much time and effort restricting their distribution and customer access by creating an artificial price barrier?
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
...I don't think fluff alone will be enough to sell codexes...
It wont, but the fact that you need them if you want to continue playing your army will. They flat out say in the FAQ that once a specific codex is released, the relevant entries in the indexes will be obsolete, and they will expect that you are using the most up to date rules for your army(ies). So you could, in theory at least, ignore the codex and continue using the index for your army, but if you're a tourney player, you wont be allowed to play a tourney using out of date rules. And it may be difficult getting games in at your store/club/gaming-hub, if you're not using the current rules.
And am I one of the few who doesn't see a problem with this? I am absolutely looking forward to the codeci for my armies. Everything is just... so... bland... It's like if the color beige was a rule set. And I know I'm not the only one, we've seen the posts here on Dakka about the bland, boring feeling most peoples armies have now, whether or not the army in question is powerful. There are no daemon weapons in the Chaos index. No special items, no real Chaos wargear, cursed items, etc. Just as there are no Chapter Relics, holy items, etc., in the SM index. ALL armies now have this problem. It's like you're just eating a slab of steak that hasn't been seasoned, marinated, or spiced, in any way whatsoever. Just a charred piece of meat. Which is great to sustain you, but doesn't satisfy your craving for flavor. For taste. For enjoyment.
I'm ready to have some variation back in my armies. Some fluff to read about. I want my Legion Rules back. I want Daemon Weapons. Something to add some real personalization for the armies. And I want the other people I play against to have those things in their armies, too.
Sometimes, the only truth people understand, comes from the barrel of a gun.
I don't see the codex release as bad in itself, but coming so close on the release of the indexes, invalidating them, and costing more money? That's a little frustrating.
amazingturtles wrote: I don't see the codex release as bad in itself, but coming so close on the release of the indexes, invalidating them, and costing more money? That's a little frustrating.
Yeah, I was aware that codexs would be returning... but a fething month after the release? why even bother with the index for those armies? They obviously knew what the rules were since these had to be at printers months ago...
amazingturtles wrote: I don't see the codex release as bad in itself, but coming so close on the release of the indexes, invalidating them, and costing more money? That's a little frustrating.
I agree it was a wee bit soon.
I suppose I have a nice baseline in case these codex books make things pear-shaped but oh-well.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
amazingturtles wrote: I don't see the codex release as bad in itself, but coming so close on the release of the indexes, invalidating them, and costing more money? That's a little frustrating.
Yeah, I was aware that codexs would be returning... but a fething month after the release? why even bother with the index for those armies? They obviously knew what the rules were since these had to be at printers months ago...
GreaterGood? wrote: Yeah, I was aware that codexs would be returning... but a fething month after the release?
Better that than no one gets to play at all except the new books.
Freaking marine players, literally whining about getting too much stuff, while everyone else sits here with not enough.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
fwlr wrote: Please let TS and WE just be in the chaos codex. I don't wanna have to wait a year
I'd rather TS be their own book. GW is separating them, because they can make them sufficiently distinct from CSM. DG won't have Havocs - they'll have Putrid Devastators. They won't have Terminators - they'll have Phgleminators.
To clarify what i was saying, my frustration isn't with the indexes. I like the indexes. i like that i could play with basically everything i had right off the bat. My frustration is with the speed they're being invalidated.
It's exaggerated but not entirely off. If you factor in personnel expenses, equipment, etc; GW makes (going off of memory here) in the neighborhood of 75-80% profit on each kit sold. I calculated it out several years ago, when I used to care, but now I just let my stock sit and generate dividends for me. They make about $100 bucks in profit off of a Knight if it's sold through a direct channel and about $60 if it's not (dollar amounts not pound for these two examples).
Here's a quick, dirty calculation, based off of the 1/2 year statement. Note, this won't be accurate as it includes all revenue but I'm too lazy to calculate it out to the Nth and would have to use the more detailed annual financial report to do so...anyway (I'm using dollar signs but mean pounds):
1. Revenue: 70,935,000
2. Cost of sales: 21,373,000
That's about 43% profit but it includes a great number of items that wouldn't count towards the actual cost required to make and ship a kit.
Also, other considerations include things like it's not necessary to buy new equipment with each new model and actually making an injection mold, in house, is really cheap if you already have equipment (pro-tip, GW owns equipment). GW's plant costs actually went down $476,000, year-on-year (which was down $33,000 from the previous year), as they need less new equipment (maintenance and breakage, etc). This increases a kit's profit margin as well.
There's a lot of nuance here that I won't go into but that's a quick, dirty rundown of some of the considerations involved.
Those other costs are considerable and cannot be ignored. They made 10.5 off 70.9 (before royalties) or 15%. Now add royalties and cash then pay dividends and taxes.
Now if you think they shouldn't have stores, a magazine, or a community website then their operation suddenly becomes a lot cheaper and the hobby a lot less robust. So, pick your poison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
amazingturtles wrote: To clarify what i was saying, my frustration isn't with the indexes. I like the indexes. i like that i could play with basically everything i had right off the bat. My frustration is with the speed they're being invalidated.
This is frustrating, but would you prefer to wait a long time for a proper codex?
"First codex will be out in a year and we'll release 6 a year." Would that make you feel better or worse about the overall game itself?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 18:42:06
Better. Much better. A solid year of relative balance and feedback would make me feel much better about the state of the game. Not as much as five years, but a wait before diving back into the gross imbalances of codex 'system' would have been a comfort. A headlong rush is deeply disturbing, ill-thought out and rather silly.
There is no chance to apply rational, well thought alterations backed by evidence to the first batch of codex releases. If they're changed at all from the index list it will be essentially random over and underpowered changes, fueled by a dart board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 19:42:09
