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So most of these rules stage to set the unit up anywhere more than 9 inches, you only need a charge roll of 8 to reach within 1 inch for a successful charge that's a 40% chance of success . So what does dakka think viable taxti. Now?

You need a charge of 9 because you have to set up more than 9 inches away. The FAQ is even explicit about this.

It strikes me as generally not worth it unless you're willing to use a CP reroll (boosts your odds to about 52%) or have something else that makes you more likely to get in. Eversors are great because they almost always make it. Orks get natural rerolls. But I wouldn't just throw down a Vanguard Veteran squad and try to charge with them.

Even ~52% isn't exactly stellar odds. But in practice it feels higher % than this once you have the option to reroll either or both dice. Especially when you don't neeed to use command points.

Having played a few games with my dark angels termies and my various nids i find its a good thing in general. I wouldn`t base your whole plan around it, but being able to threaten turn 1 charges with units like genestealers etc can often lead to your opponent being overly cautious and allowing you to dictate more of te battle. In essence its powerful when it works....so it all depends on how much of a high risk/high reward gamble you want to take.

It might be worth it if you can DS multiple cheapish units with rerolls as half of them should make it. DSing in a Deathstar and then only having a 50:50 chance of it making contact (after rerolls) does not seem like a good strategy to me.

Games sometimes come down to a few crucial dice rolls but I try to avoid deliberately invoking such all-or-nothing scenarios if I can help it.

Me specifically I'm thinking of doing this with reivers... assuming they DO deep strike and not get a scout move (which seems to be going the way of the dodo)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also how do you reroll without a command point? Works?

I've been testing dropping in 15 berzerkers and kharn in an assault claw. Even with an Icon of Wrath they rarely make the charge, any of them, and because they are close combat focused they end up not doing anything except getting shot at for a turn. The better solution is something that can pop out of deep strike and fire all their weapons full blast. My new plan is to put a contemptor with duel claws with inbuilt plasma, then drop Zhufor and plasma terminators right next to him to reroll 1s. Contemptor hits on 2s at full strength. That's a potential of 28 wounds from all the plasma spam, followed by potential charges from everything (including the assault claw). It has a lot of potential.

Honestly unless you are going very ham with many assault based units and no overlap in shooting causing a 10-12" charge i think it could be ok. problem being reserve limitations.

could be cool with a fire base of long range anti tank popping vehicles T1 as you drop in and around and hope to give them a good pounding with redundant units. problem with that is they tend to be a LOT of points.

maybe its a good idea to combat squad assault terminators and marines. im honsetly not sure on the math on that one. and you only get to reroll once per assault phase so good luck with that.

Orks has a 57% chance of making the nine inch charge. I definately think those odds are stellar. Especially with MSU kommando units to bolster the teleporting infantry.

It is definitely doable, but the less you have to rely on a natural 9" charge the better.

Some things that help this are:

1. Have the unit also be good at shooting so you don't mind too much if they don't make it (terminators, vanguard vets, etc)
2. Bring rerolls to charge (Lemartes, Ragnar, SM Librarian power, etc).
3. Dropping so many units you don't mind if half don't make it, again with most of them not being half bad at shooting.

If it was too easily to charge after deepstriking wouldn't it be OP especially since you can now pretty much go wherever you want within 9" of the enemy.

Deep striking is already fairly powerful in the your opponent has to modify their setup to deal with it. You cannot be shot at until you arrive and you can land extactly where you want to. There is also a good chance you can roll well and get into combat the same turn.

I am new so maybe I am missing the downside?

Another option for marines is Minotaurs with their Chapter Master Asterion Moloc. Instead of the usual effect he has a 6 inch bubble of re-rolling failed charges. With Terminator armour he can deepstrike in with the rest of your deepstrikers and give them all a slightly better than 50% chance at a successful charge.

My brother owns Minotaurs but never plays, so I think I will be misappropriating them for a little test run in the near future - perhaps once the marine codex comes out.

jcd386 wrote:
It is definitely doable, but the less you have to rely on a natural 9" charge the better.

Some things that help this are:

1. Have the unit also be good at shooting so you don't mind too much if they don't make it (terminators, vanguard vets, etc)
2. Bring rerolls to charge (Lemartes, Ragnar, SM Librarian power, etc).
3. Dropping so many units you don't mind if half don't make it, again with most of them not being half bad at shooting.

Doesn't being good at shooting just potentially lengthen your charge?

Its not reliable. Sometimes you may charge in but sometimes you may fail. If you fail charge, most likely you will get shot at, charged at first and will probably die horribly.

It's pretty viable for World Eaters or any other unit which has either a reroll and/or a +" on their chargedistance.

Mavnas wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
It is definitely doable, but the less you have to rely on a natural 9" charge the better.

Some things that help this are:

1. Have the unit also be good at shooting so you don't mind too much if they don't make it (terminators, vanguard vets, etc)
2. Bring rerolls to charge (Lemartes, Ragnar, SM Librarian power, etc).
3. Dropping so many units you don't mind if half don't make it, again with most of them not being half bad at shooting.

Doesn't being good at shooting just potentially lengthen your charge?

Potentially yes. Possibly no.
Your opponent decides what models they remove but the assaulting army no longer has to charge the unit they shot at. If you drop a unit of Terminators armed to the teeth with Storm Bolters there is nothing to stop you landing nine and a half inches from one unit and laying rapid fire hell on a different unit ten inches away.

Except Necrons, never half-arse killing Necron units.

For chaos players, simply deepstrike a Psyker with Warptime with your [assault] unit.

Use Warptime to move them [M] distance in the Psychic phase.

Then assault. You cant not get in (barring a very very gakky roll).

Malifice wrote:
For chaos players, simply deepstrike a Psyker with Warptime with your [assault] unit.

Use Warptime to move them [M] distance in the Psychic phase.

Then assault. You cant not get in (barring a very very gakky roll).

Ynnari can do the same trick with Word of the Phoenix.

Space Marines get a slightly worse version withe the re-roll charges of Veil of Time.

I'm sure there must be other psychic powers which allow similar tricks. I think it's nice that you can almost guarantee (or make far more likely) a charge after deepstrike but only if you dedicate resources to achieve it.

Dionysodorus wrote:
You need a charge of 9 because you have to set up more than 9 inches away. The FAQ is even explicit about this.

It strikes me as generally not worth it unless you're willing to use a CP reroll (boosts your odds to about 52%) or have something else that makes you more likely to get in. Eversors are great because they almost always make it. Orks get natural rerolls. But I wouldn't just throw down a Vanguard Veteran squad and try to charge with them.

With Shrike you can. Not sure how you'd calculate out the odds of getting to choose between full and single dice rerolls based on the initial roll but it's certainly better than 52%

 DanielFM wrote:

Malifice wrote:
For chaos players, simply deepstrike a Psyker with Warptime with your [assault] unit.

Use Warptime to move them [M] distance in the Psychic phase.

Then assault. You cant not get in (barring a very very gakky roll).

Ynnari can do the same trick with Word of the Phoenix.

Space Marines get a slightly worse version withe the re-roll charges of Veil of Time.

I'm sure there must be other psychic powers which allow similar tricks. I think it's nice that you can almost guarantee (or make far more likely) a charge after deepstrike but only if you dedicate resources to achieve it.

What is the best chaos unit to do this with? Warp talons are too pricey.

Also, you just know your target is falling back in the movement phase and you're going toget blaslasted.

That said the talons move 12". A big enough squad could be positioned to multicharge a fair few units, and they cant be overwatched.

jcd386 wrote:
It is definitely doable, but the less you have to rely on a natural 9" charge the better.

Some things that help this are:

1. Have the unit also be good at shooting so you don't mind too much if they don't make it (terminators, vanguard vets, etc)
2. Bring rerolls to charge (Lemartes, Ragnar, SM Librarian power, etc).
3. Dropping so many units you don't mind if half don't make it, again with most of them not being half bad at shooting.

fun fact about combi bolters, they're rapid fire 2 which at 9" is 4 shots and you can charge after rapid fire now....

gendoikari87 wrote:
fun fact about combi bolters, they're rapid fire 2 which at 9" is 4 shots and you can charge after rapid fire now....

Yes but a smart opponent will remove casualties from the front, thus increasing the roll you need to make for a charge.

True but then 4 shots at st 4 turn one from five models teleporting in threatening with power fists?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drop two of those in an make them choose the form of their destructor

I might be worth trying with Daemons since an Instrument gives them +1" for Advance & Charge rolls. So for the lesser Daemons, they actually only need to roll 8 and can use a CP to re-roll the lowest result.

The problem is that they do not have a "deep strike" equivalent aside from Daemonic Ritual, which requires the summoning Character to not move in the turn it summons.
Meaning the opponent has a turn to just move away

I really wish it stopped the character from shooting and/or casting psychic powers instead of not moving. It would have made this a viable tactic instead of a "never use it ever" rule

-

It depends on a lot of factors.

1.) Do you have a re-roll to your charge/are you willing to spend a CP to re-roll one of the dice?

2.) How Threatening is the overwatch from the enemy squad to your unit? Is it a unit with only flamers that cannot hit you at 9", why not try. Are you terminators charging a 5 man tactical squad, sure. Are you terminators charging a Scion Command squad with 4 plasma guns, maybe we want to re-think that charge.

3.) Will deepstriking for the charge put you in a bad position if you fail the charge?

4.) How expensive is the unit that will be charging? A 50 point unit charging to tie something up is probably worth it even if it fails, a 500 point deathstar that fails in front of the opponent is not near so good.

5.) How much support are you getting from the rest of your army? Do you have multiple deepstrike threats? Other fast units putting pressure on your opponent?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I might be worth trying with Daemons since an Instrument gives them +1" for Advance & Charge rolls. So for the lesser Daemons, they actually only need to roll 8 and can use a CP to re-roll the lowest result.

The problem is that they do not have a "deep strike" equivalent aside from Daemonic Ritual, which requires the summoning Character to not move in the turn it summons.
Meaning the opponent has a turn to just move away

I really wish it stopped the character from shooting and/or casting psychic powers instead of not moving. It would have made this a viable tactic instead of a "never use it ever" rule

-

The larger problem is that summoning can fail. You could easily set up a turn 2 summon and charge as along as you have decent terrain, and other fast units in your army. To summon say 20 Daemonettes to Charge is only about a 50-50 proposition, followed by like a 60%ish charge roll. So the issue is that there is a high chance that you will straight fail to do anything.

 Karhedron wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
fun fact about combi bolters, they're rapid fire 2 which at 9" is 4 shots and you can charge after rapid fire now....

Yes but a smart opponent will remove casualties from the front, thus increasing the roll you need to make for a charge.

So don't shoot what you plan to charge. Simple.

ERJAK wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
You need a charge of 9 because you have to set up more than 9 inches away. The FAQ is even explicit about this.

It strikes me as generally not worth it unless you're willing to use a CP reroll (boosts your odds to about 52%) or have something else that makes you more likely to get in. Eversors are great because they almost always make it. Orks get natural rerolls. But I wouldn't just throw down a Vanguard Veteran squad and try to charge with them.

With Shrike you can. Not sure how you'd calculate out the odds of getting to choose between full and single dice rerolls based on the initial roll but it's certainly better than 52%

It's only a little better.

28% to make a 9" charge
48% if you can re-roll both dice
52% if you can re-roll one die
57% if you can re-roll one or both, and choose to re-roll both if neither is a 4+
74% on 3d6
90% on 3d6 and the ability to re-roll one die

Malifice wrote:
For chaos players, simply deepstrike a Psyker with Warptime with your [assault] unit.

Use Warptime to move them [M] distance in the Psychic phase.

Then assault. You cant not get in (barring a very very gakky roll).

Is that legal? The rules in the main rulebook imply that models who have arrived via Deep Strike cannot move again in that turn.

Main rules:
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."

"Warptime has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, pick a friendly HERETIC ASTARTES unit within 3" of the psyker. That unit can immediately move as if it were its Movement phase."

Breng77 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I might be worth trying with Daemons since an Instrument gives them +1" for Advance & Charge rolls. So for the lesser Daemons, they actually only need to roll 8 and can use a CP to re-roll the lowest result.

The problem is that they do not have a "deep strike" equivalent aside from Daemonic Ritual, which requires the summoning Character to not move in the turn it summons.
Meaning the opponent has a turn to just move away

I really wish it stopped the character from shooting and/or casting psychic powers instead of not moving. It would have made this a viable tactic instead of a "never use it ever" rule

-

The larger problem is that summoning can fail. You could easily set up a turn 2 summon and charge as along as you have decent terrain, and other fast units in your army. To summon say 20 Daemonettes to Charge is only about a 50-50 proposition, followed by like a 60%ish charge roll. So the issue is that there is a high chance that you will straight fail to do anything.

Except, for this tactic, you don't really need 20 Daemonettes. 10 is probably enough, and very reliable to get on the table at only PL5. if you roll 10, great, but I'd still rather have 2 units of 10 Daemons (of any kind) than 1 unit of 20 due to Morale.
The issue is that the enemy can simply move away from the Summoning character in the turn prior, making it difficult to even get to that 9.00001" of the unit you want to charge.

Even still, I kinda want to try this with a bunch of Daemon Princes and minimum Horror units as my starting force (maybe some flamers) and a couple hundred Reinforcement points.

-

Malifice wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

Malifice wrote:
For chaos players, simply deepstrike a Psyker with Warptime with your [assault] unit.

Use Warptime to move them [M] distance in the Psychic phase.

Then assault. You cant not get in (barring a very very gakky roll).

Ynnari can do the same trick with Word of the Phoenix.

Space Marines get a slightly worse version withe the re-roll charges of Veil of Time.

I'm sure there must be other psychic powers which allow similar tricks. I think it's nice that you can almost guarantee (or make far more likely) a charge after deepstrike but only if you dedicate resources to achieve it.

What is the best chaos unit to do this with? Warp talons are too pricey.

Also, you just know your target is falling back in the movement phase and you're going toget blaslasted.

That said the talons move 12". A big enough squad could be positioned to multicharge a fair few units, and they cant be overwatched.

Make sure its a target that wound be very bad to fall back. yeah some armies are better than others at mitigating that but those arent ALL armies.

also terminators are pretty good to charge. power fists in bulk are no joke and you do get a bunch of nice combi plasma type weapons to ruin peoples days.

you will probably have trouble with IG with their orders but you have to change tactics and whittle them down and or wait for them to move for an opening to pop up.