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 Frazzled wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Launching missiles over other countries and threatening to attack US territory is positively insane.

When they know there's big country(US) that's just itching to invade them(along with many others) not really. They are desperate to ensure attacking them is too expensive that US doesn't want. Seoul has been good chip for that but it's got this one tiny little issue...What about when US decides they don't care much about SK's casualties anymore? That can and likely will happen one day since nothing is permanent including US-SK alliance. So NK is unsurprisingly interested in having threat that ensures US cannot simply ignore payback for invading them. Specifically tons of own citizens dying.

US has invaded lots of countries but none with WMD's that can threaten US. No wonder NK wants to join that club. If they don't sooner or later US invades.

but we are not itching to invade them. That statement lacks lucidity.

Haven't you been following the news lately? I can barely hear all other news through all the US threats like "They will be totally destroyed", "We will show you fire and fury like never before" and "They won't be around much longer". No, the US seems like a perfectly normal, peaceful country to me. Totally not itching for a fight.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Launching missiles over other countries and threatening to attack US territory is positively insane.

When they know there's big country(US) that's just itching to invade them(along with many others) not really. They are desperate to ensure attacking them is too expensive that US doesn't want. Seoul has been good chip for that but it's got this one tiny little issue...What about when US decides they don't care much about SK's casualties anymore? That can and likely will happen one day since nothing is permanent including US-SK alliance. So NK is unsurprisingly interested in having threat that ensures US cannot simply ignore payback for invading them. Specifically tons of own citizens dying.

US has invaded lots of countries but none with WMD's that can threaten US. No wonder NK wants to join that club. If they don't sooner or later US invades.

but we are not itching to invade them. That statement lacks lucidity.

Haven't you been following the news lately? I can barely hear all other news through all the US threats like "They will be totally destroyed", "We will show you fire and fury like never before" and "They won't be around much longer". No, the US seems like a perfectly normal, peaceful country to me. Totally not itching for a fight.

You're leaving off all the parts about "if they attack first". That's kind of an important thing.

There is a lot of talk without being attacked first, let's not pretend it's some sort of self-defense fantasy there.

We do remember the whole "why don't we just drop nukes on civilians" question from Trump last year?

 d-usa wrote:
Like the US said at the UN:

"No country would back off if provoked and threatened."

Only we are then surprised when North Korea won't back off while we provoke and threaten them.

It takes two to yell at each other.

No it doesn't. They were threatening us daily back when we were sending them FOOD.

 d-usa wrote:
There is a lot of talk without being attacked first, let's not pretend it's some sort of self-defense fantasy there.

We do remember the whole "why don't we just drop nukes on civilians" question from Trump last year?

"hey guys, I know that a psychopathic person who feeds people to dogs and has slave labour is threatening to nuke us and our allies,

but here is why we are jerks and deserve it probably"

Both countries can be wrong, it's a thing you know.

“Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!”

- Stephan Decatur

Is that supposed to mean that pointing out that our country may be wrong makes me not supportive of our country?

Is Japan and South Korea wrong too? They are being threatened as well. Japan is getting air raid warnings go off when these missiles are fired.

If China doesn't want a nuclear SK and Japan in the next five years, they better get control of the situation. You want flying robot suits shooting nukes, this is how you get flying robot suits shooting nukes...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Launching missiles over other countries and threatening to attack US territory is positively insane.

When they know there's big country(US) that's just itching to invade them(along with many others) not really. They are desperate to ensure attacking them is too expensive that US doesn't want. Seoul has been good chip for that but it's got this one tiny little issue...What about when US decides they don't care much about SK's casualties anymore? That can and likely will happen one day since nothing is permanent including US-SK alliance. So NK is unsurprisingly interested in having threat that ensures US cannot simply ignore payback for invading them. Specifically tons of own citizens dying.

US has invaded lots of countries but none with WMD's that can threaten US. No wonder NK wants to join that club. If they don't sooner or later US invades.

but we are not itching to invade them. That statement lacks lucidity.

Haven't you been following the news lately? I can barely hear all other news through all the US threats like "They will be totally destroyed", "We will show you fire and fury like never before" and "They won't be around much longer". No, the US seems like a perfectly normal, peaceful country to me. Totally not itching for a fight.

Crimea river....

 Frazzled wrote:
Is Japan and South Korea wrong too? They are being threatened as well. Japan is getting air raid warnings go off when these missiles are fired.

Are they threatening NK with total annihilation?

We are talking about what the US is doing and saying to NK and what NK is doing and saying to the US.

If China doesn't want a nuclear SK and Japan in the next five years, they better get control of the situation. You want flying robot suits shooting nukes, this is how you get flying robot suits shooting nukes...

Doesn't really matter what China wants, as neither Japan nor SK want nukes.

There are two countries escalating this, and neither of them are China, Japan, or South Korea.

I don't understand what taunting North Korea gets the United States in the long term. It's almost like Donald Trump is baiting them to nuke us so he can have an excuse to invade them.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/25/japans-pm-shinzo-abe-calls-snap-election

PM Shinzo Abe is calling a new snap election set for October after dissolving the lower house of the Diet on Thursday. Gambling on his rising popularity from the North Korean crisis to cut opposition off at the knees as the fumble to rush together a platform.

This is a political tactic employed by Mr Abe in the past to call early elections ahead of schedule in order to throw opposition parties into disarray while the Liberal Democratic Party sweeps up. The Governor of Tokyo, Yuriko Koike's new Hope Party is still finding its legs and the main opposition Democratic Party is reeling from the departure of their rising star Shiori Yamao for infidelity. Abe believes the snap election will result in a new "mandate" for the LDP but there is the threat of voters being turned off by such a nakedly political move. With the other parties presenting very little to be excited about, the LDP may win again by virtue of being the best of several bad choices.

Will be interesting to see if he managed to pull a U.K. move there.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't understand what taunting North Korea gets the United States in the long term. It's almost like Donald Trump is baiting them to nuke us so he can have an excuse to invade them.

The US does not have anything to gain from taunting NK, but really the US is not doing that; Trump is. I don't mean to say the US should be blameless here; it is our POTUS and therefore our position, but when looking at motivation it's important to realize that the taunting sources from Trump and no one else. We know that his Tweets can come from the perspective of his emotions at a particular time, so a potential benefit to the US does not need to exist for Trump to be motivated in taking such action.



And to avoid going into forbidden territory; I intend the above as a statement of fact and not any sort of political commentary.

 Frazzled wrote:

India has nukes. They are not firing missiles all over the place and threatening their neighbors. The world does a collective meh.

um, frazz....?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_wars_and_conflicts

Scroll down to the part about their nuclear programs.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is Japan and South Korea wrong too? They are being threatened as well. Japan is getting air raid warnings go off when these missiles are fired.

Are they threatening NK with total annihilation?

We are talking about what the US is doing and saying to NK and what NK is doing and saying to the US.

If China doesn't want a nuclear SK and Japan in the next five years, they better get control of the situation. You want flying robot suits shooting nukes, this is how you get flying robot suits shooting nukes...

Doesn't really matter what China wants, as neither Japan nor SK want nukes.

There are two countries escalating this, and neither of them are China, Japan, or South Korea.

You know, the thing about being the hegemon, you gotta kinda wear the hat for it.

Japan and South Korea don't have the strength to do it solo. We, the big brother, are the ones who have to step in. Everyone has their role to play. We're the big stick. China is doing the speak softly, like with how they just cut off a significant flow of money into N. Korea. Japan and S. Korea are definitely building their sticks up.

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is Japan and South Korea wrong too? They are being threatened as well. Japan is getting air raid warnings go off when these missiles are fired.

Are they threatening NK with total annihilation?

We are talking about what the US is doing and saying to NK and what NK is doing and saying to the US.

If China doesn't want a nuclear SK and Japan in the next five years, they better get control of the situation. You want flying robot suits shooting nukes, this is how you get flying robot suits shooting nukes...

Doesn't really matter what China wants, as neither Japan nor SK want nukes.

There are two countries escalating this, and neither of them are China, Japan, or South Korea.

You know, the thing about being the hegemon, you gotta kinda wear the hat for it.

Japan and South Korea don't have the strength to do it solo. We, the big brother, are the ones who have to step in. Everyone has their role to play. We're the big stick. China is doing the speak softly, like with how they just cut off a significant flow of money into N. Korea. Japan and S. Korea are definitely building their sticks up.

There slowly backing NK into a corner..
However. Ancient wisdom is to leave a gap to let a enemy escape to in battle.

Don, t cut off every option because they end up being backed up, nothing to lose. Nothing to lose makes people very dangerous.

Gotta leave ernough to let em flee as such.
So leave them abit of room to work with but strengthen allies and keep working with China.

 easysauce wrote:
When you are dealing with actual crazies with nukes like north korea, simply stating plainly that they will be wiped off the map if they actually do anything isnt the least bit out of order.

Just to repeat the point for maybe the 20th time in this thread, the NK leadership aren't crazy. What they are doing is playing a very dangerous game of brinkmanship, but it is a game they need to play in order to maintain their own positions in NK, and extort resources they need to keep their country functioning.

This isn't a defense of NK. They're criminals running a protection racket. It is a call for people to please understand the actual problem, so that solutions can be attempted that make sense given that problem. Deciding they are erratic crazies that might just decide to commit suicide by attacking the West for no reason is not a sensible view of the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
Pretty much, unfortunate really... there were better solutions that were easier to implement, with much less risk, but they are gone now that the nuclear genie is out of the bottle.

There was never a solution that wouldn't have got hundreds of thousands killed in Seoul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Launching missiles over other countries and threatening to attack US territory is positively insane.

Launching missiles over Japanese territory was just the next step in the escalation.

It's like if a guy with a heavy italian accent, wearing a pin stripe suit and carrying a violin case threatens to burn down your fruit stand unless you pay protection, he isn't crazy he's a criminal running an extortion racket. If you don't pay and he burns down your fruit stand, he still isn't crazy he's just escalated to the next step.

India has nukes. They are not firing missiles all over the place and threatening their neighbors. The world does a collective meh.

India getting nuclear weapons was a freakout, in response to Pakistan getting nuclear weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is Japan and South Korea wrong too?

Japan and NK have been remarkably restrained. People right now are freaking out about the missiles over Japan, but they seem to have forgotten about the SK soldiers who were killed by unprovoked NK attacks, NK sinking a SK warship, and firing artillery at SK soldiers.

The US was also restrained, and a positive force for resolving this issue. That is to say the US was, before he who cannot be mentioned became president.

If China doesn't want a nuclear SK and Japan in the next five years, they better get control of the situation. You want flying robot suits shooting nukes, this is how you get flying robot suits shooting nukes...

This idea floating around that China can just choose to resolve this issue whenever they want is completely false and needs to just please fething stop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't understand what taunting North Korea gets the United States in the long term. It's almost like Donald Trump is baiting them to nuke us so he can have an excuse to invade them.

It gets the US nothing. But it lets Trump appear to be a hard man, and it distracts from his various domestic disasters and criminal investigations.

 sebster wrote:

Just to repeat the point for maybe the 20th time in this thread, the NK leadership aren't crazy. What they are doing is playing a very dangerous game of brinkmanship, but it is a game they need to play in order to maintain their own positions in NK, and extort resources they need to keep their country functioning.

Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise. Repetition of your viewpoint has no effect on its validity.
And yes, you are being an apologist for NK and diminishing their responsibility for all this, and yes there very much were better solutions in the past before NK got nukes. None without bloodshed, but all with less bloodshed then anything available now...
Kicking the can down the road just made the problem worse.
The only person who could ever have stopped this was kim or his father, if they cared one bit for the people they rule they could have sorted out a peacefull transition of power, or let the UN in to make sure people are not living in modern slavery, but they simply care more about being in charge then their people.
Trump hasnt been sporting brinkmanship, he spoke words, harsh words? sure... mean words? sure... but that is nothing even close to brinkmanship, especially when those words are simply voicing what is already NATO policy.
Launching missiles over japan, is actually the far end of brinkmanship and tantamount to declaring war to many.

 easysauce wrote:
Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.

No, it doesn't. Holy fething gak words actually fething mean things.

Being willing to do really depraved, awful things doesn't mean you are crazy.

Repetition of your viewpoint has no effect on its validity.

The point I have made isn't more or less valid because of its repetition. I hold the many variations of "NK is not a crazy regime, they are a criminal regime who are using nukes to strengthen their protection racket" to be a plain reading of the evidence at hand.

The relevance of the repetition is that I've had to repeat this point so many times, because so many people are running with that "NK so cra-cra" argument, because they don't seem to actually give a gak about figuring out what's actually going on and what should be done about.

And yes, you are being an apologist for NK and diminishing their responsibility for all this

Yeah, that's it. I'm here calling NK a mafia like organisation running an extortion racket, and you call that being an apologist. That's not a very sensible thing to say.

and yes there very much were better solutions in the past before NK got nukes. None without bloodshed, but all with less bloodshed then anything available now...

You're assuming bloodshed is now certain, and that the chance of avoiding bloodshed was so low that it was okay to trade hundreds of thousands of people in SK to achieve it.

Something really ugly happens when people become simultaneously cynical and naive.

The only person who could ever have stopped this was kim or his father, if they cared one bit for the people they rule they could have sorted out a peacefull transition of power, or let the UN in to make sure people are not living in modern slavery, but they simply care more about being in charge then their people.

Even this statement from you, which is about as vague as things can be, still manages to be utterly incoherent. If any generation of Kim's cared about the people they ruled then peace wouldn't have been dependent on a transition of power, because the problem is that they don't care about their people. If that changed, then NK could settle down to being just another third rate dictatorship like all the others.

Trump hasnt been sporting brinkmanship, he spoke words, harsh words? sure... mean words? sure... but that is nothing even close to brinkmanship, especially when those words are simply voicing what is already NATO policy.
Launching missiles over japan, is actually the far end of brinkmanship and tantamount to declaring war to many.

And now you're trying to start some kind of debate over who is and who isn't attempting brinkmanship. I don't know why.

 sebster wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.

No, it doesn't. Holy fething gak words actually fething mean things.

Being willing to do really depraved, awful things doesn't mean you are crazy.

Actually, showing a distinct lack of empathy towards your fellow man is a very troubling thing. It is a sign of deep rooted mental health issues.

But yes, you are right. Words do mean things. But that is about the only thing you are right about here.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Actually, showing a distinct lack of empathy towards your fellow man is a very troubling thing. It is a sign of deep rooted mental health issues.

But yes, you are right. Words do mean things. But that is about the only thing you are right about here.

It is simply not useful to go around calling every brutal tyrant crazy, and assuming them to all be erratic lunatics that cannot possibly be trusted on to do anything reasonable, even if it is in their own interest. al-Assad has done abhorrent things while in power, but to assume he was crazy and therefore incapable of balancing the tightrope act needed to fight a civil war dependent on foreign aid would be completely wrong.

And that's what this discussion is. Whether we go with the simple but stupid narrative that the NK leadership is provoking more powerful countries, therefore they're crazy and therefore they're erratic and must be killed, or whether we actually spend just a few minutes learning about the power dynamics that cause a country like NK to play brinkmanship with more powerful countries.

 sebster wrote:
Whether we go with the simple but stupid narrative that the NK leadership is provoking more powerful countries, therefore they're crazy and therefore they're erratic and must be killed, or whether we actually spend just a few minutes learning about the power dynamics that cause a country like NK to play brinkmanship with more powerful countries.

But from the POV of those more powerful countries, especially the regular joe who just knows of the power (and little else), it would indeed seem crazy to provoke someone so powerful. Personally I find your "criminal protection racket" to be a very good way of describing the NK leadership and elite.

Feeding people to dogs, well, wasn't that mostly rumors through Chinese newspapers? But any good criminal organisation needs some rumors about their ruthlessness to keep their racket going and I'm sure few citizens want to find out what will get them fed to the dogs. Anyone who stays in line and praises Kim gets to keep on living. Slavery aka rented workers in richer countries? That exactly what organized crime does when (possibly not even illegal) immigrants to the US/Europe are being exploited in underpaid jobs or the sex trade.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.

No, it doesn't. Holy fething gak words actually fething mean things.

Being willing to do really depraved, awful things doesn't mean you are crazy.

Actually, showing a distinct lack of empathy towards your fellow man is a very troubling thing. It is a sign of deep rooted mental health issues.

But yes, you are right. Words do mean things. But that is about the only thing you are right about here.

Lack of empathy is a bright line symptom of a serial killer profile or sociopaths in general.

what to do whit them?

deply anti rocket shield asap.
if china and russia objects, sanction ru and ch to hell and back.
if NK attacks rocket shield then we have ww3!

time of talk has passed by and are long gone, in fact it died when jong-il did, now it is time to replace words whit action.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.

No, it doesn't. Holy fething gak words actually fething mean things.

Being willing to do really depraved, awful things doesn't mean you are crazy.

Actually, showing a distinct lack of empathy towards your fellow man is a very troubling thing. It is a sign of deep rooted mental health issues.

But yes, you are right. Words do mean things. But that is about the only thing you are right about here.

Lack of empathy is a bright line symptom of a serial killer profile or sociopaths in general.

He, s a genuine phycopath.
Not much else to say.

Great so let's pretend they are all psychopaths and irrational. Where does that really leave you as a strategy? It leaves you at a dead end, over and over and over again.

That is a terrible strategy, no it is worse than terrible because there is no strategy. Hope is not a strategy.

Besides, we have seen time and time again that NK is a rational actor. They understand brinkmanship diplomacy and MAD very well, perhaps better than the U.S. They have had defacto MAD in place in the Korean Pennisula since the 50's.

The only reason you would choose to assume they are irrational is because you have all ready chosen destruction as the only solution. If that is the case, just come out and say it and stop wasting everyone's time in this thread and then go sign-up to do your part.

 Easy E wrote:
Great so let's pretend they are all psychopaths and irrational. Where does that really leave you as a strategy? It leaves you at a dead end, over and over and over again.

That is a terrible strategy, no it is worse than terrible because there is no strategy. Hope is not a strategy.

Besides, we have seen time and time again that NK is a rational actor. They understand brinkmanship diplomacy and MAD very well, perhaps better than the U.S. They have had defacto MAD in place in the Korean Pennisula since the 50's.

The only reason you would choose to assume they are irrational is because you have all ready chosen destruction as the only solution. If that is the case, just come out and say it and stop wasting everyone's time in this thread and then go sign-up to do your part.

I think most are recommending the existing strategy (which Trump is fyi) not destruction. What's your play?

 sebster wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.

No, it doesn't. Holy f^cking sh^t words actually fething mean things.

Yes... words do indeed mean things, you resorting to foul, rude, and insulting language and tone says more about you then it does about me or my assertion that Kim is crazy.

There is this "crazy" thing called reality, in it words have definitions which don't bend whichever way you in the (current year) want them to bend.
cra·zy
ˈkrāzē/
informal
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest

1.
mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.


*edited for punctuation