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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/10 22:20:18
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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My wishlist:
Traitor Guard. The ability to negate Astra Militarium unit's "Imperium" keyword and replace it with the related Chaos keyword.
Khorne Skullcrushers. Space Wolves have their Wolfy wolves on giant wolves and all we get to live with is the Juggerlord. I want entire untis of skullcrushers damnit!
Noise Havocs, Sonic Dreads and Noise Terminators. These were a thing once upon a time and I felt like they really made playing an EC army more than just "pink and black marines".
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Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/10 22:28:56
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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The Sonic Dreadnought technically exists now, as of the FW FAQ. Stat-wise it's a Helbrute that can replace the multi-melta with two blastmasters. Traitor Guard is supposed to be shown via the Renegades and Heretics list, as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/10 22:48:30
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I just want Traitor Legions to be ported to 8th.
That supplement was great and extremely fluffy.
Also I'd love the Iron Warriors to get actual siege toys to work with, like the stuff the Death Korps of Krieg gets.
But in general idea like to be able to play each legion like it's meant to be played.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/10 22:50:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/10 23:29:26
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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If Iron Warriors get their Basilisk back I will be singing with joy.
And a few Wyverns while we're at it wouldn't hurt either.
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Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 05:17:44
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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I think eventually each cult legion will get :
- Cult HQs (Exalted Sorc, Lord of Contagion)
- Cult Termies (Scarab Occult, Nurgle sooner or later)
- Cult Marines (established)
- Cult Cultists (Tzaangors and Poxwalkers)
- Cult Dreadnoughts (probably a matter of time)
Then all the vanilla undivided legions can focus on making their core CSM units more interesting through special rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 06:15:54
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Don't think Dreads are that likely. GW seems very confident with its helbrute-kit which also includes bits for all chaos gods. They also included them in the lists for DG and TS, unlike Termis and Vindis, which obviously get a unique replacement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 06:31:59
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It's time to get away from the traditional marks, +1 t for nurgle could be much more thematic than just the +1.
Mark of nurgle: -1 to enemy ld in combat phase, immune to morale, infantry can only be wounded on a 3+ at best.
Mark of khorne: always hit on a 3+ in combat and are always hit on a 3+, immune to morale, characters re roll wounds when directing attacks at characters.
Mark of tzeench: immune to morale, each unit of heretic astartes gains a single re-roll for hits, wounds, saves per phase.
Mark of slaanesh: immune to morale, the first time a unit shoots, assaults, advances, it re- rolls all 1,s to hit, or can advance an additional d6, once per unit per game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 14:32:33
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 14:51:24
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Ajroo wrote:Boltgun, Bolt Pistol AND a Chainsword.
Intruder wrote:boltguns, bolt pistol and chainsword.
AGREED!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 20:15:06
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Ancient Chaos Terminator
Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.
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andysonic1 wrote:I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
I actually agree here...the problem with the straight up immunity was that it was lazy. It was a cop-out. It made Morale meaningless and worthless and we saw the crux of that in 6th and 7th when they brought in Fear, gave Nurgle a Fear causing icon and then wondered why no one ever took it - largely because Fear sucked ass and morale was pretty much meaningless where 95% of the armies in the game had some way to ignore or nullify morale to the point of being worthless - whether through their own USR, Fearless buff bubbles, Stubborn Ld 10 buff bubbles, rerolls or random rules that meant Morale became a second charge or run move for them.
8th actually makes Morale a thing. Don't strip that away. It's not that complicated.
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Now only a CSM player. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 20:30:45
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DarkStarSabre wrote: andysonic1 wrote:I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
I actually agree here...the problem with the straight up immunity was that it was lazy. It was a cop-out. It made Morale meaningless and worthless and we saw the crux of that in 6th and 7th when they brought in Fear, gave Nurgle a Fear causing icon and then wondered why no one ever took it - largely because Fear sucked ass and morale was pretty much meaningless where 95% of the armies in the game had some way to ignore or nullify morale to the point of being worthless - whether through their own USR, Fearless buff bubbles, Stubborn Ld 10 buff bubbles, rerolls or random rules that meant Morale became a second charge or run move for them.
8th actually makes Morale a thing. Don't strip that away. It's not that complicated.
Except it has already been stripped away almost entirely for three armies. Considering all three are the armies where morale plays a big roll, those are mostly useless already (for most MEQ armies it just means you run MSU and it is a non issue). They've already totally invalidated morale as a compensation for large units, mainly it exists to punish 10 man squads of elite infantry at this point, and make a few hordes significantly weaker than others. So morale isn't really a thing, not for the armies it'd actually hurt or even make sense for. Rubrics are more vulnerable to morale than conscripts are in normal play. It's so idiotic and just flat out bad.
Cult troops should get fearless back, if other armies are going to have defacto immunity, and they do, so should we.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 20:34:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 20:32:47
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote:My wishlist:
Traitor Guard. The ability to negate Astra Militarium unit's "Imperium" keyword and replace it with the related Chaos keyword.
Khorne Skullcrushers. Space Wolves have their Wolfy wolves on giant wolves and all we get to live with is the Juggerlord. I want entire untis of skullcrushers damnit!
Noise Havocs, Sonic Dreads and Noise Terminators. These were a thing once upon a time and I felt like they really made playing an EC army more than just "pink and black marines".
There is the Renegades and Heretics list already. You think it might get it's own Codex in 8th edition?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 20:35:29
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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SilverAlien wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote: andysonic1 wrote:I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
I actually agree here...the problem with the straight up immunity was that it was lazy. It was a cop-out. It made Morale meaningless and worthless and we saw the crux of that in 6th and 7th when they brought in Fear, gave Nurgle a Fear causing icon and then wondered why no one ever took it - largely because Fear sucked ass and morale was pretty much meaningless where 95% of the armies in the game had some way to ignore or nullify morale to the point of being worthless - whether through their own USR, Fearless buff bubbles, Stubborn Ld 10 buff bubbles, rerolls or random rules that meant Morale became a second charge or run move for them.
8th actually makes Morale a thing. Don't strip that away. It's not that complicated.
Except it has already been stripped away almost entirely for three armies. Considering all three are the armies where morale plays a big roll, those are mostly useless already (for most MEQ armies it just means you run MSU and it is a non issue). They've already totally invalidated morale as a compensation for large units, mainly it exists to punish 10 man squads of elite infantry at this point, and make a few hordes significantly weaker than others. So morale isn't really a thing, not for the armies it'd actually hurt or even make sense for. Rubrics are more vulnerable to morale than conscripts are in normal play. It's so idiotic and just flat out bad.
Cult troops should get fearless back, if other armies are going to have defacto immunity, and they do, so should we.
To be fair, this is largely because snipers are not nearly as good as they need to be. There's no effective way to kill a commissar, ergo there is no effective way to chew through a conscript's morale.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 20:44:01
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Arachnofiend wrote:To be fair, this is largely because snipers are not nearly as good as they need to be. There's no effective way to kill a commissar, ergo there is no effective way to chew through a conscript's morale.
In that case we should probably have fearless cult troops on the basis we don't have snipers so we'd at least get compensation for being unable to remove guard (and tyranid) fearless bubbles. No, the psychic power that is unlike to take off even 2 wounds with a 18" range usable once a turn isn't compensation either before someone responds. Nor would deepstrike with the current rules.
Honestly, we might as wlel just get fearless back, they've already screwed the pooch on "morale matters now guys!" to the point is is kinda a joke for what units it matters on.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 20:44:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 21:19:26
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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Yeah, let's throw that baby out with that bathwater!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 21:20:14
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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8th edition is dead, before its first codex is even released! A new record for GW!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 21:41:58
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MagicJuggler wrote:
8th edition is dead, before its first codex is even released! A new record for GW!
Pointing out they've already screwed the pooch on morale being a constant that armies can't ignore isn't saying the edition is dead. Just pointing out how badly they've already screwed up by their own stated design philosophy.
But no, it totally makes sense that not only do normal space marines now have better morale rules than rubrics (and the other cult troops) so do guard armies. Conscripts with a commissar are more likely to hold the line than beserkers of khorne.
Plus, they've already given morale immunity to deathwing, with the unforgiven rule. I fail to see why cult troops shouldn't get it back as well. Beyond the fact that even in a chaos wishlisting thread people pop in to insist chaos should be fighting a constant uphill battle.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 21:44:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 21:43:42
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Formosa wrote:It's time to get away from the traditional marks, +1 t for nurgle could be much more thematic than just the +1.
Mark of nurgle: -1 to enemy ld in combat phase, immune to morale, infantry can only be wounded on a 3+ at best.
Mark of khorne: always hit on a 3+ in combat and are always hit on a 3+, immune to morale, characters re roll wounds when directing attacks at characters.
Mark of tzeench: immune to morale, each unit of heretic astartes gains a single re-roll for hits, wounds, saves per phase.
Mark of slaanesh: immune to morale, the first time a unit shoots, assaults, advances, it re- rolls all 1,s to hit, or can advance an additional d6, once per unit per game.
This is so unbalanced an OP that I can't even began to say why
Enjoy your 20 ppm chaos marks!
SilverAlien wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote: andysonic1 wrote:I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
I actually agree here...the problem with the straight up immunity was that it was lazy. It was a cop-out. It made Morale meaningless and worthless and we saw the crux of that in 6th and 7th when they brought in Fear, gave Nurgle a Fear causing icon and then wondered why no one ever took it - largely because Fear sucked ass and morale was pretty much meaningless where 95% of the armies in the game had some way to ignore or nullify morale to the point of being worthless - whether through their own USR, Fearless buff bubbles, Stubborn Ld 10 buff bubbles, rerolls or random rules that meant Morale became a second charge or run move for them.
8th actually makes Morale a thing. Don't strip that away. It's not that complicated.
Except it has already been stripped away almost entirely for three armies. Considering all three are the armies where morale plays a big roll, those are mostly useless already (for most MEQ armies it just means you run MSU and it is a non issue). They've already totally invalidated morale as a compensation for large units, mainly it exists to punish 10 man squads of elite infantry at this point, and make a few hordes significantly weaker than others. So morale isn't really a thing, not for the armies it'd actually hurt or even make sense for. Rubrics are more vulnerable to morale than conscripts are in normal play. It's so idiotic and just flat out bad.
Cult troops should get fearless back, if other armies are going to have defacto immunity, and they do, so should we.
No, no faction of those 3 are inmune to morale. Ork, Guard and Tyranids have ways to supress morale that offer counterplay for you. You NEED to adapt to them and learn how to fight what makes their morale strong. As always you take the Conscript-Comisar combo and make it a general problem when is only specific.
Flat-out inmunity to morale can be good with some units that are really "fluffy" with that (Rubrics, Poxwalkers, even Berzerkers.) etc... but flat-out inmunity to morale for a big part of an army? That just don't offer any counterplay for your opponent.
Tyranid Synapse offer counterplay. Ork Mob Rules offer counterplay. Flat-out Inmunity don't.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 22:06:52
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 22:12:23
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Dakka Veteran
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I'll admit that I'm very disappointed with the way Thousand Sons played out. Their main release was so-so when it was new but the shine and luster was quickly brushed aside when Traitor Legion came out and and made them second rate to a lot of the choices in that book. Then 8th comes around and solidifies their second rate status while compensating a lot of the other units pretty well.
Then you have their actual model release that I was honestly surprised was as large as it was. But that too is now outshined by the amount DG are getting in comparison.
So rules wise they've been struck back down and release wise they fizzed out quite quickly. And because their release was so small and narrowly focused, their position in 8th is likely going to result in army lists with a unit of Rubrics or Scarabs and a Sorcerer HQ and then everything else will just match what every other non-cult CSM army list contains.
When their codex comes out, a Thousand Sons specific psychic power chart isn't going to be enough to give the army enough identity or power imo.
It would be cool if they gave Thousand Sons a unique vehicle. A 'Silver Tower Splinter' that could shoot a scaled down version of the Coruscating Beam ability. Was a fast moving Skimmer. Had an alternate 'fly mode' to give CSM some more air options. Look wise would just be a flying chaosy dagger or something. Rules wise could be similar to a Fire Prism or something.
I'd have also improved the Rubrics to give them a melee variant. If they can make Wraitguard wield swords and axes there's little reason a Rubric can't. Scarab Occult with Ushabti blades could have also been a possibility.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 23:26:18
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Galas wrote:No, no faction of those 3 are inmune to morale. Ork, Guard and Tyranids have ways to supress morale that offer counterplay for you. You NEED to adapt to them and learn how to fight what makes their morale strong. As always you take the Conscript-Comisar combo and make it a general problem when is only specific.
Flat-out inmunity to morale can be good with some units that are really "fluffy" with that (Rubrics, Poxwalkers, even Berzerkers.) etc... but flat-out inmunity to morale for a big part of an army? That just don't offer any counterplay for your opponent.
Tyranid Synapse offer counterplay. Ork Mob Rules offer counterplay. Flat-out Inmunity don't.
Except again... 2/3 of those don't offer counter play to a chaos army, because counter play is literally just snipers. Which is horrific game design in the first place, even imperial knights last edition had more counter play than one unit at best per army. Seriously, It's just awful design.
So either I'd like some strong morale rules of our own (fearless cult troops is still my ideal) or an actual proper toolbox so we can engage in counter play. Ideally both, considering the imperium surely has both in spades.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/11 23:39:36
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SilverAlien wrote: Galas wrote:No, no faction of those 3 are inmune to morale. Ork, Guard and Tyranids have ways to supress morale that offer counterplay for you. You NEED to adapt to them and learn how to fight what makes their morale strong. As always you take the Conscript-Comisar combo and make it a general problem when is only specific.
Flat-out inmunity to morale can be good with some units that are really "fluffy" with that (Rubrics, Poxwalkers, even Berzerkers.) etc... but flat-out inmunity to morale for a big part of an army? That just don't offer any counterplay for your opponent.
Tyranid Synapse offer counterplay. Ork Mob Rules offer counterplay. Flat-out Inmunity don't.
Except again... 2/3 of those don't offer counter play to a chaos army, because counter play is literally just snipers. Which is horrific game design in the first place, even imperial knights last edition had more counter play than one unit at best per army. Seriously, It's just awful design.
So either I'd like some strong morale rules of our own (fearless cult troops is still my ideal) or an actual proper toolbox so we can engage in counter play. Ideally both, considering the imperium surely has both in spades.
Exalted for truth. If the game's only counter is "buy a unit that is a specific counter", that game designer should be fired.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 00:11:11
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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SilverAlien wrote: Galas wrote:No, no faction of those 3 are inmune to morale. Ork, Guard and Tyranids have ways to supress morale that offer counterplay for you. You NEED to adapt to them and learn how to fight what makes their morale strong. As always you take the Conscript-Comisar combo and make it a general problem when is only specific.
Flat-out inmunity to morale can be good with some units that are really "fluffy" with that (Rubrics, Poxwalkers, even Berzerkers.) etc... but flat-out inmunity to morale for a big part of an army? That just don't offer any counterplay for your opponent.
Tyranid Synapse offer counterplay. Ork Mob Rules offer counterplay. Flat-out Inmunity don't.
Except again... 2/3 of those don't offer counter play to a chaos army, because counter play is literally just snipers. Which is horrific game design in the first place, even imperial knights last edition had more counter play than one unit at best per army. Seriously, It's just awful design.
So either I'd like some strong morale rules of our own (fearless cult troops is still my ideal) or an actual proper toolbox so we can engage in counter play. Ideally both, considering the imperium surely has both in spades.
Maybe, just maybe, if there is actually an issue with the way a particular army interacts with Morale, the solution isn't to spread the disease further but treat it at the source and fix the way the armies interact with Morale? Maybe? Maybe we should do that instead of slowly turning the game back into 7th because "Jimmy got two cookies and I only got one"? Maybe balance can be a little more nuanced instead of slamming things with a hammer?
Honestly, make it so Cult units interact with Morale in an interesting way like make it so Berzerkers gain LD by killing models or something and you've not only fixed their Leadership problem, you've also not removed the mechanic entirely. Maybe make it so Commissars kill D3 models, or can only use their ability a certain number of times a game. Synapse is perfectly fine the way it is and Orks are perfectly fine the way they are, complaining about them is pretty silly.
Even though the thread title says "wishlist", let's keep it somewhat realistic. Morale isn't going anywhere and making certain units Fearless is not going to fix the problem currently plaguing the bleeding-edged meta (Constrict spam). The solution to a broken window isn't to get a hammer and break the window further, it's to fix the window. Automatically Appended Next Post: MagicJuggler wrote:Exalted for truth. If the game's only counter is "buy a unit that is a specific counter", that game designer should be fired.
Snipers aren't a solution to the Morale problem because Chaos does have Renegade Snipers and they still aren't enough, the problem is obviously that the Conscript blob plus Commissar is not working as intended. If GW agrees, they will either fix it or introduce a viable counter strategy through Codex stratagems, relics, or army rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 00:14:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 00:27:07
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Another wishlist item: 12 inch movement for Spawn. Having them shamble across the board at 7 inches a turn is not cutting it. Had 4 go down in a game yesterday against Space Marines to normal bolter fire. Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree morale is broken and would love to have a sniper in the ranks. Not expecting that to happen though, I think we need to kill everything to get to the leader.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 00:29:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 12:08:50
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Galas wrote: Formosa wrote:It's time to get away from the traditional marks, +1 t for nurgle could be much more thematic than just the +1.
Mark of nurgle: -1 to enemy ld in combat phase, immune to morale, infantry can only be wounded on a 3+ at best.
Mark of khorne: always hit on a 3+ in combat and are always hit on a 3+, immune to morale, characters re roll wounds when directing attacks at characters.
Mark of tzeench: immune to morale, each unit of heretic astartes gains a single re-roll for hits, wounds, saves per phase.
Mark of slaanesh: immune to morale, the first time a unit shoots, assaults, advances, it re- rolls all 1,s to hit, or can advance an additional d6, once per unit per game.
This is so unbalanced an OP that I can't even began to say why
Enjoy your 20 ppm chaos marks!
SilverAlien wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote: andysonic1 wrote:I hope to god they don't bring back straight immune to morale nonsense. If they made it thematic, like Mark of Khorne units get a +1 to their LD for every model they remove in the fight phase for that turn, that would be great and pretty much make Berzerkers immune to Morale when played correctly. Mark of Tzeench units get +1 LD for every spell they successfully cast or something. Mark of Nurgle get +1 LD when they successfully make a Disgustingly Resilient roll or something. Mark of Slaanesh get +1 LD wheeeeeeeeeeeeen idk they kill something in shooting? Not sure what would be thematic for those weirdos. Anything but just giving straight immunity would be great.
Khorne units always hitting on a 3+ in combat is useless since most things fighting in combat already do that and you don't always fight things that reduce your WS. I think what we'll see instead of straight rules changes are Stratagems that grant temp buffs to single units, like advancing and charging in the same turn or cool thematic things.
I actually agree here...the problem with the straight up immunity was that it was lazy. It was a cop-out. It made Morale meaningless and worthless and we saw the crux of that in 6th and 7th when they brought in Fear, gave Nurgle a Fear causing icon and then wondered why no one ever took it - largely because Fear sucked ass and morale was pretty much meaningless where 95% of the armies in the game had some way to ignore or nullify morale to the point of being worthless - whether through their own USR, Fearless buff bubbles, Stubborn Ld 10 buff bubbles, rerolls or random rules that meant Morale became a second charge or run move for them.
8th actually makes Morale a thing. Don't strip that away. It's not that complicated.
Except it has already been stripped away almost entirely for three armies. Considering all three are the armies where morale plays a big roll, those are mostly useless already (for most MEQ armies it just means you run MSU and it is a non issue). They've already totally invalidated morale as a compensation for large units, mainly it exists to punish 10 man squads of elite infantry at this point, and make a few hordes significantly weaker than others. So morale isn't really a thing, not for the armies it'd actually hurt or even make sense for. Rubrics are more vulnerable to morale than conscripts are in normal play. It's so idiotic and just flat out bad.
Cult troops should get fearless back, if other armies are going to have defacto immunity, and they do, so should we.
No, no faction of those 3 are inmune to morale. Ork, Guard and Tyranids have ways to supress morale that offer counterplay for you. You NEED to adapt to them and learn how to fight what makes their morale strong. As always you take the Conscript-Comisar combo and make it a general problem when is only specific.
Flat-out inmunity to morale can be good with some units that are really "fluffy" with that (Rubrics, Poxwalkers, even Berzerkers.) etc... but flat-out inmunity to morale for a big part of an army? That just don't offer any counterplay for your opponent.
Tyranid Synapse offer counterplay. Ork Mob Rules offer counterplay. Flat-out Inmunity don't.
Nope none of it is op when you consider you can already get better ability for free from other sources.
Khorne would do more damage and take more damage in the assault phase, thematic, there character a would be focussed on killing hat characters, thematic, neither is op
Tzeench would get a single re roll for a unit that can only be used on that unit, thematic, not op
Slaanesh would get a bonus to either its movement, shooting or assault once per game, per unit, thematic, not op
Nurgle is the only one that could be seen as op, but it buffs infantry only and ecourges infantry heavy armies, thematic, wounding on a 3+ at best only affects a tiny amount of weapons and shows the enhanced resilience, without the +1 t, which would have the same effect against most weapons.
Whilst you disagree can you please explain why?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 12:44:54
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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Cult unit having a "Fearless" or Morale mitigating mechanic.
makes little sense to me that Cult Troops are affected the same way as regular units by morale...
Zerkers?, why would they flee?, they are so Psychotic i don't even think its something that crosses their deranged minds.
Plagues?, i don't think they even care since they are so rotten.
Noises?, they reveal and lust for pain and stimulus...
And obviously Thousands don't give a flying feth about morale since they're all robots...
So a "Fearless" rule where if they have to make a morale check on a 5+ they don't loose models or something...
Also new weapons, tired of the same old imperial variants after all these years.
And Legion rules that makes me want to play them.
And give Kharn back his Blood god blessing, its a stupid move to remove it from him, its iconic and part of the character, also widen his Aura to at least 3".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 16:08:51
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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I get why thematically why the cult troops would be fearless or equivalent, but I think people aren't giving this much more thought than that. Any additional rules added on via marks or straight abilities on the units will cost something in points. Berzerkers are amazingly good not just because what they do they do better than anyone else, but because they are so god damn cheap. 16 PPM before the 1 point chainaxe is insanely good. Tacking on more rules to make them "better" is going to bloat their points (same for all other cult troops). Berzerkers really don't even need fearless if you play them correctly they should be being shot at minimally and always fighting gak in melee. Only when you mess up will you be removing large amounts of them and risking morale checks. The other troops units benefit from cover more (camping noise marines) or have damage mitigation abilities (rubi tuesdays and plague bois) which make the chances of taking a morale test go down. The cult troops may need some adjustments (not Berzerkers, I fear any more changes will be nerfs at this point) but adding on fearless seems like a step in the wrong direction. Remember not to just look at the one unit in a vacuum and realize there should be other high priority threats in your army for your opponent to focus on over your cult troops long enough for them to do their job.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 16:31:56
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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I like Berzerkers gaining leadership for killing enemies. And Plague Marines for every DGR save they made as Andysonic1 suggested.
Those are much more "interactive" leadershipg buffs than just "It ignores morale". And yea, for Deathwing to be just inmune to morale is BS, even being a Dark Angel player. In the end, it didn't matter because you are just running a bunch of 5-Terminator squads that are inmune to morale but even without that inmunity they just ignore battleshock effects by how much leadership they have.
I think the biggest problem with the morale system is how they have ported it from AoS without thinking about the differences. In AoS, even elite squads are much, much bigger. 15-20 elite units are common (Ard boyz for example, Graveguard, etc...). Not to talk about chaff being fielded in 30-40 model units. In 40k your Tactical Marine are at max 10 in the same unit, and only Conscripts can go up to 50 models in a unit, the rest chaff units normally are max 30 models, with the rest being normally max 10-15 models in the same unit. Thats why Battleshock/Morale is must less relevant in 40k than in AoS.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 16:34:49
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 17:14:24
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Pewling Menial
Atlanta, GA/USA
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As a player who started back in 2nd Edition with a Chaos army, and stopped playing around 4th edition only to return in 8th, I can say I'd really appreciate not having to play with demon-this and hell-that stuff. I want to play a Traitor Marine army, Hellbrute? No, that thing is a Traitor Dreadnought.
When I look at the lists as they currently stand, it frustrates me that everything Chaos can do, Loyalists can do better (with the exception of the current Khorne Berserkers, which are sure to change for the worse), and they have a lot more variety (especially with Primaris). I feel like the designers decided that the counterbalance approach is demons and all the possessed stuff. But what about those of us who literally just want to run Traitor Marine forces? Right now I'm honestly considering just running them as Loyalists instead. Don't even get me started on Fliers.
Similarly, I really hope the Psychic rules get an update in the form of an "expansion" like the 2nd edition Dark Millennium box. If you want to limit the impact of Psykers in the game, use the basic rules provided in the core rules. If you want to introduce more variety into your game, go with these new rules. I remember the ability for a player to purchase up to 4 draws from different decks based on their Race/Faction. Space Marine Psykers had access to the Librarian, Adeptus, and I think Inquisitor cards, while Traitor Librarians (Sorcerers) had access to Librarian, Adeptus, and their Mark's Powers (if they took the Mark of Nurgle, Tzeench or Slaanesh). I really appreciated that, as it allowed me to see my Sorcerer as a SM Librarian who fell to Chaos, not just some God-Devoted Spellcaster. There's a level of nuance there that I find lacking in the game as it has evolved, and I'd like to see it again. I'm fairly certain there's a way to balance things better than they were in 2nd edition.
Perhaps I should just go play 30k and shut up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 18:00:44
Subject: Re:8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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There are plenty of non-deamon units for your chaos army. You could easily run a Dread model as a counts as Helbrute, nothing in its rules makes it very demonic. FW brought in a lot of marine options that have more chaosy rules but, again, you don't have to model them in that way but say the Maw rules for the vehicles are the spikes on the front of it. What Legion are you specifically?
The Psychic powers need a huge boost that I hope the codex addresses. I also hope Khorne gets some love in the form of Blood Tithe again or something similar.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/12 19:05:56
Subject: 8th Edition CSM Codex Wishlist Thread
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Pewling Menial
Atlanta, GA/USA
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One of the selling-points for 8th was supposed to be "hey, no more need of 'counts-as' because there are rules for everything!" You're right though that Hellbrutes are dreads (they even have the berserk rule), so that's a nit-pick. But it does highlight that I think they've skewed too far in favor of the flavor of demonic marines instead of that plus the inclusion of traitor/fallen marines in some legions.
Long ago I started out as Black Legion because "ermagherd, Abaddon!" but somewhere between 3rd and 4th I repainted almost all of those as Iron Warriors to complement my large World Eaters force. Since then I have branched out to include archetypical units from other Legions, such as Night Lords Raptors. This way I could form a Warband under a Lord (generally with an Undivided mark) that had several fallen Legions represented, or I could take an all Iron Warriors or all World Eaters force if I chose.
I was really quite pleased with the Soul Hunter/Blood Reaver/Void Stalker series in showing a Legion who was struggling with who they were becoming and the ramifications of their 10,000 year old decision. I appreciated the Talos/Xarl perspectives in regards to falling to the taint and corruption of Chaos - they hated it. They were simply First Founding Marines who were betrayed by their Imperium and the Emperor; they were not and did not want to become Vandreds.
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