Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.

are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

ie the other 2 missed.

Now read the whole faq and tell me where they figured out which dice hit and missed.

oh ya, after the roll, and after the modifiers, then we can see if we hit or missed. so if you have a special rule to reroll misses, you'd do that after you figure out which dice hit & miss . just the usual special rules modifying the rule book.

So you see the part where it says "always" and literally just go "but that doesn't matter, I'm gonna reroll after modifiers." Went from "You aren't reading RAW" to "I don't care what it says." Okey doke. Again you haven't proven anything says you alter the reroll format, and again you haven't addressed the part where "reroll of 1" abilities and plasma overcharge abilities both say "hit rolls of 1." Again, this is relevant because we know a -1 on a plasma overcharge results in a dead model on a 2, because it becomes a 1. I feel like you're not understanding this argument, because you're saying that "reroll hit rolls of 1" happens before modifiers but not "reroll misses." The ability is "reroll hit rolls of 1" - so, before modifiers, it's called a hit roll. After modifiers/rerolls, a model with plasma can die on a "hit roll of 1" - so, after modifiers, it's called a hit roll. How do you justify that 1s are not magically rerollable after modifiers if you can reroll other things with pretty much 0 justification in the rules, which say explicitly that modifiers always happen after rerolls. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it could use some better wording, considering they're calling rolls "hits" through like 3 steps if there are modifiers and rerolls involved, but the word "always" is literally there. Your interpretation allows us to reroll 2's on plasma overcharge because neither ability changes the core reroll rules, they both just give access to the reroll rules under different conditions.

Again, your method of rerolling after modifiers means 2 can be rerolled under a "reroll 1s" ability because hit rolls are hit rolls throughout the entire hitting process. Nothing says you change when rerolls are determined on either ability, and RAW says you don't reroll after modifiers. If you change the timing on one, you change the timing on all, because the timing is established not by the special rules, but by the reroll rules, which state you always reroll before modifiers. You say "rerolling misses lets you reroll misses after modifiers despite the 'reroll before modifiers' clause" and the reason I'm pushing that to allow rerolls of 1s after modifiers is because, after modifiers, they're still called "hit rolls of 1", so you'd still be rerolling hit rolls of 1, you'd just have more chances to do it. That's why your argument of one rule changing the timing while the other keeps it doesn't hold any weight to me.

I think we're done here, though, if you literally say things like "You don't have any support RAW for your claim, you're adding words!" And then completely ignore the exact piece that says what I've been saying and turning the rest of it to say it proves you right. The answer in the commentary is "rerolls always happen before modifiers." The rule to reroll misses says nothing about changing this, you just want it to.

And then this gem:

Next you'll be telling me if I have a rule that let's me roll 3d6 for a charge that I can't use that ability because the rule book says 2d6.

Honestly, the only response I have for this is "Hurrrrrr" because this deserves nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobug wrote:
People have probably pointed it out before. But i think they either didn't actually intend it to work this way and cocked up the answer or changed their minds on the fly without thinking it through. A few abilities dont make much sense with playing this way. Notably the tau markerlight, where bonus 5 cancels out bonus 1 due to this ruling about modifiers yet it states all bonus are comulative. It makes bojus 5 even nore worthless than it already is.

Yeah... I strongly disagree that a +1 to hit is useless just because you also get to reroll 1s.

I want to clarify something

Most abilities allow you to reroll failed hit rolls...

You are allowed to reroll it if you use a command point. Since that has no restriction.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Rerolling after modifiers also means that models that can reroll a 1 can reroll both a 1 and 2 if given -1 to hit, as it was clarified that dice rolls can't be modified below 1. That means a -1 to hit actually powers up models that reroll 1s.

I'm guessing they envision hitting/missing as an ongoing process rather than a "check once and you got it" scenario, while we're used to just modifying what we need to get on the dice before rolling in the first place.

The fact remains they are telling us everywhere that you don't apply modifiers until AFTER you reroll. Following the rules means you literally can't put modifiers on before a reroll as they happen after.

But you are also told you can reroll misses. So, if determining if you missed, you are also determining if you hit before applying modifiers. So, if you've already determined that you hit or miss, then an argument can be made that since you aren't told to determine for a second time that you hit after you've already determined. So. if hitting modifiers means you missed the chance to reroll, then determining whether you hit before applying rerolls or modifiers should likewise mean you missed the chance to apply modifiers to the to hit roll if you have to determine whether you hit before rerolling or applying modifiers.

Jacksmiles wrote:


So you see the part where it says "always" and literally just go "but that doesn't matter, I'm gonna reroll after modifiers."

I'm going to stop your wall of nonsense, strawmen and red herrings right here.

I have a special rule that lets me reroll misses, I roll, I modify, I then look to see if I hit or miss. if I miss the rule allows me to reroll it, it's just that simple and that's the process. the modifiers still apply to the roll, so I reroll and modify, then look again to see if I hit or miss.

see, I rerolled before I modified.

 doctortom wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Rerolling after modifiers also means that models that can reroll a 1 can reroll both a 1 and 2 if given -1 to hit, as it was clarified that dice rolls can't be modified below 1. That means a -1 to hit actually powers up models that reroll 1s.

I'm guessing they envision hitting/missing as an ongoing process rather than a "check once and you got it" scenario, while we're used to just modifying what we need to get on the dice before rolling in the first place.

The fact remains they are telling us everywhere that you don't apply modifiers until AFTER you reroll. Following the rules means you literally can't put modifiers on before a reroll as they happen after.

But you are also told you can reroll misses. So, if determining if you missed, you are also determining if you hit before applying modifiers. So, if you've already determined that you hit or miss, then an argument can be made that since you aren't told to determine for a second time that you hit after you've already determined. So. if hitting modifiers means you missed the chance to reroll, then determining whether you hit before applying rerolls or modifiers should likewise mean you missed the chance to apply modifiers to the to hit roll if you have to determine whether you hit before rerolling or applying modifiers.

We're only told in the hitting step to roll the dice and compare it to BS to determine if it hits. That's basically it. So the argument being presented is that the hit step determination happens at the end of everything, and it looks to me like the rules are putting that at the beginning of everything without being perfectly clear and just saying "rerolls before modifiers." But they ARE saying "rerolls before modifiers" and added in "always" in their commentary.

Rerolls are special rules, that seems to be the one thing being repeated over and over, but so are many modifiers. And we're told rerolls happen before modifiers, always.

So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers

The argument seems to be:

roll -> look at bs (not hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers -> determine hits -> rerolls

Except, again, it doesn't account for the end result still being called a hit roll, meaning that 2 I rolled is a hit roll of 1 at the end step. So I can reroll that because the reroll rules change the reroll rules, right?

Rerolls always happen before modifiers. Modifiers are a special rule that can change whether or not you hit, clearly *after* determining whether you hit, because the rules say they apply after any rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:


So you see the part where it says "always" and literally just go "but that doesn't matter, I'm gonna reroll after modifiers."

I'm going to stop your wall of nonsense, strawmen and red herrings right here.

I have a special rule that lets me reroll misses, I roll, I modify, I then look to see if I hit or miss. if I miss the rule allows me to reroll it, it's just that simple and that's the process. the modifiers still apply to the roll, so I reroll and modify, then look again to see if I hit or miss.

see, I rerolled before I modified.

I see you rerolling after modifiers despite clearly being told we don't do that and a laughably not-ironic attempt to call my posts nonsense. I have a special rule called a modifier that changes whether you hit or miss.

see now you're really going off the deep end, next you'll be saying since you rerolled in turn 1, you can't reroll in turn 2

"So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers "

This is clearly wrong because that is in no way support by RAW or the FAQ.

It's roll, modify, compare to BS and determine hits.

sirlynchmob wrote:
see now you're really going off the deep end, next you'll be saying since you rerolled in turn 1, you can't reroll in turn 2

"So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers "

This is clearly wrong because that is in no way support by RAW or the FAQ.

It's roll, modify, compare to BS and determine hits.

You complain about my logical fallacies but love throwing your own around.

Have you quoted anything in this thread at all? Like actual rules text? Have you read any? Or are you just going off the deep end? I'm out, have fun yelling at air

all I can say to you, is ready the whole faq, especially the last sentence. follow their process, then you can see how you're changing the rules to fit your narrative.

the faq quite clearly points out it's. roll, modify, check BS to determine hits & misses.

Jacksmiles wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
see now you're really going off the deep end, next you'll be saying since you rerolled in turn 1, you can't reroll in turn 2

"So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers "

This is clearly wrong because that is in no way support by RAW or the FAQ.

It's roll, modify, compare to BS and determine hits.

You complain about my logical fallacies but love throwing your own around.

Have you quoted anything in this thread at all? Like actual rules text? Have you read any? Or are you just going off the deep end? I'm out, have fun yelling at air

Actually, he does have you there. Going by what you say, you have determined hits before rerolling or modfiiers, which would mean that by what you're claiming, modifiers would never apply since you've already determined that you hit.

 doctortom wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
see now you're really going off the deep end, next you'll be saying since you rerolled in turn 1, you can't reroll in turn 2

"So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers "

This is clearly wrong because that is in no way support by RAW or the FAQ.

It's roll, modify, compare to BS and determine hits.

You complain about my logical fallacies but love throwing your own around.

Have you quoted anything in this thread at all? Like actual rules text? Have you read any? Or are you just going off the deep end? I'm out, have fun yelling at air

Actually, he does have you there. Going by what you say, you have determined hits before rerolling or modfiiers, which would mean that by what you're claiming, modifiers would never apply since you've already determined that you hit.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, as rerolls always happen before modifiers. He may "have me" according to you, but he doesn't have the rules, as rerolls always happen before modifiers. Honestly, that's where I "have him." How do you roll rerolls after modifiers when you're told not to? Nothing says you determine hits only once, or that the process is changed by this rule, but there *is* a place that says "rerolls always happen before modifiers." Again, how do you figure that modifiers aren't special rules that can change whether or not you hit? It's just as likely modifiers can do that as opposed to applying modifiers then determining hits for the first time before rerolls, in fact *more* likely because the rules explicitly say "rerolls always happen before modifiers."

Again, and I've been bringing this up a lot, how under his logic can I not reroll a 2 that has a -1 after modifiers? It becomes a hit roll of 1, and I can reroll hit rolls of 1. Why does the reroll before modifier context only apply to one rule that conditionally grants access to rerolls but not the other, despite clear explicit rulings that rerolls only ever always happen before modifiers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
all I can say to you, is ready the whole faq, especially the last sentence. follow their process, then you can see how you're changing the rules to fit your narrative.

the faq quite clearly points out it's. roll, modify, check BS to determine hits & misses.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
see now you're really going off the deep end, next you'll be saying since you rerolled in turn 1, you can't reroll in turn 2

"So what we seem to be being told:

roll -> compare to bs and determine hits (hit step from rulebook) -> rerolls -> modifiers "

This is clearly wrong because that is in no way support by RAW or the FAQ.

It's roll, modify, compare to BS and determine hits.

You complain about my logical fallacies but love throwing your own around.

Have you quoted anything in this thread at all? Like actual rules text? Have you read any? Or are you just going off the deep end? I'm out, have fun yelling at air

Actually, he does have you there. Going by what you say, you have determined hits before rerolling or modfiiers, which would mean that by what you're claiming, modifiers would never apply since you've already determined that you hit.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, as rerolls always happen before modifiers. He may "have me" according to you, but he doesn't have the rules, as rerolls always happen before modifiers. Honestly, that's where I "have him." How do you roll rerolls after modifiers when you're told not to? Nothing says you determine hits only once, or that the process is changed by this rule, but there *is* a place that says "rerolls always happen before modifiers." Again, how do you figure that modifiers aren't special rules that can change whether or not you hit? It's just as likely modifiers can do that as opposed to applying modifiers then determining hits for the first time before rerolls, in fact *more* likely because the rules explicitly say "rerolls always happen before modifiers."

Actually, you don't have the rules either.

For hit rolls "If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using." Then, in the Wound Roll step "If an attack scores a hit, you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack successfully wounds the target." It doesn't say to determine if you hit, then apply modifiers then determine again if you hit, especially given that in the Hit Roll section it also states "If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends." So, rerolls definitely comes after determining if the attack hits, and any modifiers that are applied have to be before the attack roll hits, because once you determine if the roll hits either you miss and the sequence ends (or you reroll),, or you promptly go to rolling to wound as it tells you to do after determining that you hit. So, there is no "determine if you hit, reroll if necessary, apply modifiers, then determine again if you hit" sequence like you claim the rules have. If you hit, you proceed to rolling to wound, you do not stop to collect modifiers on the way.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Again, and I've been bringing this up a lot, how under his logic can I not reroll a 2 that has a -1 after modifiers? It becomes a hit roll of 1, and I can reroll hit rolls of 1. Why does the reroll before modifier context only apply to one rule that conditionally grants access to rerolls but not the other, despite clear explicit rulings that rerolls only ever always happen before modifiers?

That's not my logic, that's your red herring.

all I can say to you, is ready the whole faq, especially the last sentence. follow their process, then you can see how you're changing the rules to fit your narrative.

the faq quite clearly points out it's. roll, modify, check BS to determine hits & misses.

if you think that is wrong, then you're saying the faq is wrong, and as such by extension, your argument is also wrong.

So you roll.

Then, you check for rerolls. This is easy if it says "Reroll 1s", since you only pick up the 1s and reroll them. But what if it says "Reroll misses"? You don't determine if it hits or misses until AFTER modifiers.

Re rolls have always been the most annoying part of this game to me/ the reason I took a many year break towards the end of 6th.

They are always gamed and manipulated for maximum cheese.

Hopefully the codex standardize some of the unique ability's wording so the OBVIOUS! BRB intent applies to every army equally.

I would be beyond thrilled if this game had zero re-rolls of any kind.

Bigdoza wrote:
Re rolls have always been the most annoying part of this game to me/ the reason I took a many year break towards the end of 6th.

They are always gamed and manipulated for maximum cheese.

Hopefully the codex standardize some of the unique ability's wording so the OBVIOUS! BRB intent applies to every army equally.

I would be beyond thrilled if this game had zero re-rolls of any kind.

Why? They're pretty basic math to figure out probabilities, and they allow for more granularity than just a straight d6.

I'm just gonna post the Designers Commentary here.

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modi ers to the hit rolls?

A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).

The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.

Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time resulting in a 3.

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

I really like what they did with twin linked.

Just add more attacks from abilities/auras instead of this pile of different varying conditions for re-rolls to argue about.

Aura/ability adds +1 (etc) attacks, roll to hit, apply modifiers remove fails.

Bigdoza wrote:
I really like what they did with twin linked.

Just add more attacks from abilities/auras instead of this pile of different varying conditions for re-rolls to argue about.

Aura/ability adds +1 (etc) attacks, roll to hit, apply modifiers remove fails.

That's not a BAD idea, but it can easily be problematic. Imagine an aura that gives +1 shot with weapons. Useful on a heavy bolter (33% increase in damage output) but INSANE on a Lascannon (doubles damage).

Whereas offering rerolls benefits both pretty much equally. Admittedly, +1 to hit benefits both the same as well, but that's useless on a 2+ model (unless they're suffering from a -1 or greater penalty).

I just don't see any reason to blanket hate rerolls. They offer more granularity, which is sorely needed.

From what I am understand about the rules and their implication is that if you re-roll failed to hit roles it is before modifiers are taken into account. Such as the T'au Kauyon or marker-light ability.

If you have some special ability that just let's you re-roll hits, without specifying failed hits, this is a different ability and thus let the player re-roll any of their hit dice before applying modifiers. A great example of this is the Command Re-roll.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Bigdoza wrote:
I really like what they did with twin linked.

Just add more attacks from abilities/auras instead of this pile of different varying conditions for re-rolls to argue about.

Aura/ability adds +1 (etc) attacks, roll to hit, apply modifiers remove fails.

That's not a BAD idea, but it can easily be problematic. Imagine an aura that gives +1 shot with weapons. Useful on a heavy bolter (33% increase in damage output) but INSANE on a Lascannon (doubles damage).

Whereas offering rerolls benefits both pretty much equally. Admittedly, +1 to hit benefits both the same as well, but that's useless on a 2+ model (unless they're suffering from a -1 or greater penalty).

I just don't see any reason to blanket hate rerolls. They offer more granularity, which is sorely needed.

Additional attacks from auras/abilities could be easily balanced out by adding a cumulative -hit modifier for extras granted.

Okay. Let's assume it gives +1 Shot, -1 hit.

Heavy Bolter goes from (hitting on 3+ normally) 2 hits to 2 hits. No change.

A Lascannon goes from .67 hits to 1 hit. A 50% buff.

Still inordinately benefits single shot weapons.

Why is this thread still going on

It's been FAQed twice now, there should be no argument

Reroll Failed Hit Rolls
Roll a Dice... Does it Match your BS?
It's equal to or higher than my BS -> No Rerolls
It's lower than my BS -> Reroll

Are you finished Rerolling?
No -> ?? Then repeat step 1
Yes -> Okay Great! Apply Modifiers

Because that FAQ seems really dumb?

They could fix all this with a single word: natural.

X allows you to reroll attacks that result in a natural miss, before modifiers.

(Example: Marine with heavy bolter hits on 3's. He moves and fires, rolling natural 1,2,3. He rerolls 1 and 2, resulting in rolls of 3,4 and 5. Applies modifiers: 2,3 and 4. 2 hits)

X allows you to reroll natural ones.

The concept of natural vs modified dice rolls is not new to RPG players. For instance, a "natural" 20 is a critical hit in D&D. A modified 20 (Natural 18 +2 to hit) is not a crit.

Without the NATURAL word, this becomes problematic.