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 3rksum wrote:
I keep seeing people talk about the list not being "fluffy", but why does it matter? The rules say "Your two forces are selected totally separately of each other." So does it matter that the Chaos Gods won't get along (in how it relates to this one tourney)?

I am a new player so maybe I am missing something.

It's not so much that the list was unfluffy- it was a very lazy list. I think the statement of not bothering to paint up the Knights to be neutral or to match the Tzeentch theme covers that side of it - and really, that's a shame as a lot of people will run themed lists and work with their partner to make sure their armies mesh well and look good.

No, the main issue is the composition.

"Here at Warhammer World we expect everyone to use fully painted and assembled models and to treat everyone they
encounter with civility and respect. This is just as true during your games - especially at a Doubles Weekend where the objective
is not to smash your opponent’s to a pulp every game but instead to enjoy a great game and spend time with quality, like minded
people."

3 superheavies in 2,000 points. Sure, they can be wounded by everything now, sure, they're a bit more costly pointwise. They still put out an insane amount of damage and are still remarkably resilient. Considering most people are effectively running 2 1k point armies...a force specifically designed to eke out spare points for Superheavies is just....ugh. A lot of people think there should still be a cap or that they should be a set percentage of an army at most (similar to 30k).

The issue is more the spirit of the event and how a staff team really didn't seem to be embodying it.

 3rksum wrote:
I keep seeing people talk about the list not being "fluffy", but why does it matter? The rules say "Your two forces are selected totally separately of each other." So does it matter that the Chaos Gods won't get along (in how it relates to this one tourney)?

I am a new player so maybe I am missing something.

As a fellow new player, I've noticed there's a pretty hefty expectations gap between people who joined around 5th and people who joined in 7th/post-7th. I think most of the salt in this thread is just from that 'culture' gap.

If people are going to whine about using super heavies then they should have comp for it. I find this apparent outrage odd in this context. It's pretty much summed up by saying "it's not about winning or losing, it's about having fun... unless I'm losing". Doesn't make any sense. This isn't in any way an abusive list. It's a matched play organized play event with a casual vibe, and GW went out of their way to make this is a perfectly legal, viable, and encouraged option in the rules. In fact, I thought this crap was the whole point of 8th, so you could take stuff like 3 super heavies and have a real game still.

In a normal game, whatever. They specifically said this was not about crushing your opponents or winning, that it was a casual match. In this case, they should have not brought them.

I don't know how Warhammer world works over there, but I'd imagine they could have fielded something different. I'd have used a Primaris or a DG army to help show off the new bling.

dosiere wrote:
If people are going to whine about using super heavies then they should have comp for it.

This was the same toxic mindset in 7th - certain armies do not do fantastically well against superheavies - Orks and Tyranids in particular, Chaos also tends to suffer - simply put, we don't have the hard hitting weapons with sufficient range to have an impact before the thing charges us and slaughters a squad per turn for free. It's never really been a problem for Imperial armies or Eldar armies (though that may have changed a bit with 8th).

I find this apparent outrage odd in this context. It's pretty much summed up by saying "it's not about winning or losing, it's about having fun... unless I'm losing". Doesn't make any sense. This isn't in any way an abusive list. It's a matched play organized play event with a casual vibe, and GW went out of their way to make this is a perfectly legal, viable, and encouraged option in the rules. In fact, I thought this crap was the whole point of 8th, so you could take stuff like 3 super heavies and have a real game still.

It's actually not that friendly a list. Not only do you have multiple superheavies in a list, ekeing out points complete with the equivalent min-maxed brimstone horror squads with odd blue or pink horrors...you have an army that has no consistent theme in terms of appearance or indeed in the army itself. Multiple superheavies could have been done in a better way and would have gone down better if the army was based around it suitably so.

I have no idea where you ever got the impression that 3 superheavies in 2k points was ever considered casual or friendly. You claim it's an edition thing - but people running multiple superheavies in 7th weren't praised or generally welcomed for the most part. Superheavies in 7th had far too good a damage output, high mobility and an incredible amount of resilience. In addition Imperial, Eldar and Tau superheavies were spectacularly undercosted compared to say...Orks, Chaos or Tyranids.

You also seem to have a strange perception of the point of 8th - it wasn't for LOLOLOLOL ALL SUPERHEAVIES.

It was to simplifly the bloated abomination that had emerged from 3rd edition onwards - each edition added contradictory caveats, each edition had weapons that ignored sequences, each edition had various special rules that ignored core mechanics. And there were so many of these that it spiralled out of control. 8th was about simplification - trimming out all the exceptions, specific unit rules and the like that made the game harder than it needed to be. Simplification doesn't make superheavies weak however. It may soften them a bit but as pointed out- when most people are essentially fielding 2 1k point armies...and in some cases going for set themes (all jump armies, bike armies, zilla armies etc) showing up with a force that deliberately min-maxed units out just to show up with 1400 points worth of superheavies takes the mick. Saying 'oh you should comp for superheavies them!' is like telling someone who gets shot in a driveby or a mugging that they should have been prepared to be shot.

It also effectively DENIES the variety of force structures that this event encourages people to use and that 8th enabled with the different force org charts.

For a casual event about fun - showing up with a force capable of dishing out 100+ wounds of damage per turn from 3 models alone is really not that fun.

Literally ONE super heavy had a super good damage output and that was the Wraithknight. This is the whole "Lords Of War are baad!!!1" argument all over again.

Anyone that ACTUALLY played 7th could tell you about how amazing Super Heavy Vehicles were: they really weren't. Knight lists didn't dominate for a reason.

I hear Tau didn't exactly dominate the competitive scene in 7th, either. Which of course means Tau weren't problematic and everyone whined and cried about nothing, right?

You can learn a lot from what's doing well in tournaments, but the fact that you didn't see a lot of Knight armies placing well doesn't automatically mean that Knight armies are balanced or underpowered, either. The wraithknight was hands down the most busted thing in the game but that doesn't mean everything else was fine.

Doesn't even look like an optimized list. Why bother with an exalted sorcerer? They could drop the knights and save enough points to bring four princes and at least one herald to buff the princes' strength.

Forgot to mention they had a tzeentch Heldrake too.

Also the Nurgle knight's obviously wearnt finished, just based green and some trim was painted.

I didn't play them myself. I'm bitter because I have been burned for taking a far less cheesy army and this time we took no Lords of War or special characters and all mono God.

For the record the Chaos God's hatred for each other predates time itself, let alone the measly Imperium.

Depends on how you look at it. Linear time doesn't exist in the warp, so Slaanesh/Khorne and Nurgle/Tzeentch have always hated each other but don't hate each other yet

 Sidstyler wrote:
I hear Tau didn't exactly dominate the competitive scene in 7th, either. Which of course means Tau weren't problematic and everyone whined and cried about nothing, right?

You can learn a lot from what's doing well in tournaments, but the fact that you didn't see a lot of Knight armies placing well doesn't automatically mean that Knight armies are balanced or underpowered, either. The wraithknight was hands down the most busted thing in the game but that doesn't mean everything else was fine.

People used to make arguments like this in Starcraft too and the response is the same: you balance around tournament play because anything that appears below that, but not in that, can be solved by player skill. It's not the faction, it's the player.

There's nothing wrong with taking Super-Heavies at any level in 8th. Also, they took 2 Supers, not 3. Magnus was never a Super or a GMC.

I was lucky/unlucky enough to actually play against these guys at that tournament.

I would definitely say upon first impressions they brought by far the most try-hard list at the event. That isn't to say it was the strongest, but it was an obvious "we want to win this tourney" list. Having played it, I ultimately don't think it was super OP but it was no doubt top tier and their results are testament to that. In fairness, they only beat us on victory points (they got quite lucky on their draws) and I think had we not ran out of time there was a chance we may well have ended up tabling them.

I think the magnus, double/triple knight list is going to be a staple of the meta (like ynari, daemons, magnus/dp lists were at the end of 7th) and the meta will have to adapt to cope. In all honesty we were far more geared to playing against horde and ccw lists and were a little under prep'd for their list. A few more lascannons woulda done the trick.

As I go to play competitively I was more than happy to see someone play their list and was glad to have got the chance to play against it, particularly on the top tables and being helmed by good players. Furthermore, I would say that was likely the opinion of mostly everyone there at the top tables. We were there for the competitive experience and the Warhammer Community guys totally bought that!

Now this is speculation but I know there was two Warhammer Community teams. One was called Warhammer Community Team A and one was Warhammer Community Team B. It may well be that Team B (being the knight/magnus list) was there to bring the competitive game and Team A was there for pure fun and fluff.

I can imagine it totally would have sucked to have to play them in the first round but after that the swiss system kept them at the top tables playing against the super competitive lists.
At the end of the day though it was down to favourite game votes multiplied by your VP’s, so all the competitive lists came tied last. No one enjoys getting whooped!

The event really does great to cater to all types of players so I would encourage anyone who gets the chance to go. It was my first time and I am 100% going again.

FYI the guys that won the event lost 4 out of there 5 games but had 4 favourite game votes! That’s how you truly cheese!

my group's answer to stuff like this is you bring a list of points so like our latest fun tournament is 1000 points, and nothing can be taken with a power level over 10. because bringing roboute guilliman, magnus, or imperial knight (or chaos equivilant) to 1k points casual day makes you that guy, and nobody wants to play that guy

Yeah, for anyone saying that as a whole, their list was unfluffy (and disregarding the people who gave examples of how it can work in fluff), don't forget it was a doubles game. Therefore, the army was split in two, so the Nurgle element could have been army 1, and the Tzeentch element being army 2. That was fully supported, and in fact encouraged by the Battle Brothers event.

Hell, my last event I took Space Marines, and my teammate took Tau - is that not worse than two Daemonic forces working together (which as pointed out, has happened in the past)? Our first opponents took Deathwatch and Tyranids, our second with Black Templars and Chaos Space Marines, and our third with Dark Angels and Guardsmen, I think. The TV team had far more fluff than most of the lists I just suggested.

As for the power of their list - maybe that's what they wanted to take? Maybe they like the big stuff, and that's their fun? Perhaps they thought that other people would min-max at the event, and so were prepared for a fight?
For anyone saying "they work for GW, so they could have had Tzeentch Knights", I doubt they were being backed by GW. As I see it, they were probably using their own personal collections, and not GW resources. Instead of the studio army, or being supplied one by the company, they most likely used their own models.

And yeah, I can absolutely attest that "favourite opponent" points can get you through, or doom you if you have none. In the event I mention above, we won one of those games, nearly drew another and were practically tabled in the last. However, we won the best sportsman award, which put us in good standing, despite losing two out of three games. Obviously the studio team should have tried that!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not the same. The reason why that's notable is because they normally hate each other. You'd have to be a very special individual to get them to work together, which is why Abby is such a big deal.
.

Yeah, it would take a very special person to get them to work together, someone with some traits that make them stand out.... Above the rest. It would take some kind of a demi-god being. Perhaps even that wouldnt be enough. They'd need a demigod that had transended his mortality even further. Like a primarch or something. /s

...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

 3rksum wrote:
I keep seeing people talk about the list not being "fluffy", but why does it matter? The rules say "Your two forces are selected totally separately of each other." So does it matter that the Chaos Gods won't get along (in how it relates to this one tourney)?

I am a new player so maybe I am missing something.

As long as you disregard the neckbeards and follow the golden house rule "don't be a dick" you shouldn't run into many problems.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

Magnus is the one in the army list though. But yeah, there are 6 surviving ones, I think?

Angron belongs to Khorne and he's too angry to make deals
Magnus is Tzeentch's pawn, so probably won't make deals with nurgle or be trusted enough by nurgle's followers.
Fulgrim is Slaanesh's plaything.
Mortarian serves Nurgle. Probably won't make a deal with his patron god's rival

Perturabo doesn't serve any god in particular, but the Iron Warriors are known to not really summon demons that much. They prefer blowing stuff up. Its possible, but they are more likely to just get a bunch of demon engines than to start summoning greater demons and marking stuff.
Lorgar is the opposite though. He loves all of the gods. He can probably get demons to work for him despite their rivalries.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

Kaleb Daark may not be a Primarch in name, but in my heart he is.

 Purifier wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

Kaleb Daark may not be a Primarch in name, but in my heart he is.

One day Malal will get out of the retcon zone. One day.

It's hilarious to me that people are outraged, not at the unbalanced system, but by the use of that system. If it really bothers you try a game that's not unbalanced.

dosiere wrote:
If people are going to whine about using super heavies then they should have comp for it. I find this apparent outrage odd in this context. It's pretty much summed up by saying "it's not about winning or losing, it's about having fun... unless I'm losing". Doesn't make any sense. This isn't in any way an abusive list. It's a matched play organized play event with a casual vibe, and GW went out of their way to make this is a perfectly legal, viable, and encouraged option in the rules. In fact, I thought this crap was the whole point of 8th, so you could take stuff like 3 super heavies and have a real game still.

The issue with armies spamming lords of war is that they typically don't lead to fun games. It is a bit better in 8th, but essentially it is still a skew list, where if you have the tools to deal with it, great you win a game that is like not that enjoyable, if you don't you probably lose the game that is not that enjoyable.

I think the issue here is having an even described as casual, and having people bring lists that are anything but. Now that is why I don't like casual tournaments, unless as you say the organizers are going to comp the environment, because you are essentially leaving it up to the honor system that people aren't going to bring strong armies. Also, different people have different ideas about what is casual, without guidelines it is not unreasonable for people to bring strong armies, that are not super tournament tuned, but still will beat face on someone else who brings a super soft list.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

Magnus is the one in the army list though. But yeah, there are 6 surviving ones, I think?

Angron belongs to Khorne and he's too angry to make deals
Magnus is Tzeentch's pawn, so probably won't make deals with nurgle or be trusted enough by nurgle's followers.
Fulgrim is Slaanesh's plaything.
Mortarian serves Nurgle. Probably won't make a deal with his patron god's rival

Perturabo doesn't serve any god in particular, but the Iron Warriors are known to not really summon demons that much. They prefer blowing stuff up. Its possible, but they are more likely to just get a bunch of demon engines than to start summoning greater demons and marking stuff.
Lorgar is the opposite though. He loves all of the gods. He can probably get demons to work for him despite their rivalries.

Would be nice if they had those other primarchs sure, but they don't.

You said it takes a special character to make it happen, they used one. Now you complain that it wasn't the right one.

 davou wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...you mean a primarch that's the property of a chaos god who hates another chaos god? That primarch? Sure, makes perfect sense. /s
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would just see Magnus as another one of Tzeentch's pawns. Because that's what Tzeentch does.

Odd, I recall at least two primarchs of Chaos Undivided that could fit the bill. You... You do know Magnus isn't the only Daemon Primarch, right?

Magnus is the one in the army list though. But yeah, there are 6 surviving ones, I think?

Angron belongs to Khorne and he's too angry to make deals
Magnus is Tzeentch's pawn, so probably won't make deals with nurgle or be trusted enough by nurgle's followers.
Fulgrim is Slaanesh's plaything.
Mortarian serves Nurgle. Probably won't make a deal with his patron god's rival

Perturabo doesn't serve any god in particular, but the Iron Warriors are known to not really summon demons that much. They prefer blowing stuff up. Its possible, but they are more likely to just get a bunch of demon engines than to start summoning greater demons and marking stuff.
Lorgar is the opposite though. He loves all of the gods. He can probably get demons to work for him despite their rivalries.

Would be nice if they had those other primarchs sure, but they don't.

You said it takes a special character to make it happen, they used one. Now you complain that it wasn't the right one.

Well yeah. Would you expect Scipio Africanus to rally the Carthaginians? Details matter. Magnus is not the right primarch for this sort of thing.

Breng77 wrote:

dosiere wrote:
If people are going to whine about using super heavies then they should have comp for it. I find this apparent outrage odd in this context. It's pretty much summed up by saying "it's not about winning or losing, it's about having fun... unless I'm losing". Doesn't make any sense. This isn't in any way an abusive list. It's a matched play organized play event with a casual vibe, and GW went out of their way to make this is a perfectly legal, viable, and encouraged option in the rules. In fact, I thought this crap was the whole point of 8th, so you could take stuff like 3 super heavies and have a real game still.

The issue with armies spamming lords of war is that they typically don't lead to fun games. It is a bit better in 8th, but essentially it is still a skew list, where if you have the tools to deal with it, great you win a game that is like not that enjoyable, if you don't you probably lose the game that is not that enjoyable.

I think the issue here is having an even described as casual, and having people bring lists that are anything but. Now that is why I don't like casual tournaments, unless as you say the organizers are going to comp the environment, because you are essentially leaving it up to the honor system that people aren't going to bring strong armies. Also, different people have different ideas about what is casual, without guidelines it is not unreasonable for people to bring strong armies, that are not super tournament tuned, but still will beat face on someone else who brings a super soft list.

Okay, so let me clarify: roughly half your points in vehicles or monstrous creatures is skew? Because a knight doesn't have a higher toughness than leman russ or land raiders. Lots of guard lists do something like that (or used to).

Lman wrote:
I was lucky/unlucky enough to actually play against these guys at that tournament.

I would definitely say upon first impressions they brought by far the most try-hard list at the event. That isn't to say it was the strongest, but it was an obvious "we want to win this tourney" list. Having played it, I ultimately don't think it was super OP but it was no doubt top tier and their results are testament to that. In fairness, they only beat us on victory points (they got quite lucky on their draws) and I think had we not ran out of time there was a chance we may well have ended up tabling them.

I think the magnus, double/triple knight list is going to be a staple of the meta (like ynari, daemons, magnus/dp lists were at the end of 7th) and the meta will have to adapt to cope. In all honesty we were far more geared to playing against horde and ccw lists and were a little under prep'd for their list. A few more lascannons woulda done the trick.

As I go to play competitively I was more than happy to see someone play their list and was glad to have got the chance to play against it, particularly on the top tables and being helmed by good players. Furthermore, I would say that was likely the opinion of mostly everyone there at the top tables. We were there for the competitive experience and the Warhammer Community guys totally bought that!

Now this is speculation but I know there was two Warhammer Community teams. One was called Warhammer Community Team A and one was Warhammer Community Team B. It may well be that Team B (being the knight/magnus list) was there to bring the competitive game and Team A was there for pure fun and fluff.

I can imagine it totally would have sucked to have to play them in the first round but after that the swiss system kept them at the top tables playing against the super competitive lists.
At the end of the day though it was down to favourite game votes multiplied by your VP’s, so all the competitive lists came tied last. No one enjoys getting whooped!

The event really does great to cater to all types of players so I would encourage anyone who gets the chance to go. It was my first time and I am 100% going again.

FYI the guys that won the event lost 4 out of there 5 games but had 4 favourite game votes! That’s how you truly cheese!

Odd scoring system, but more people in this thread need to read this post.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well yeah. Would you expect Scipio Africanus to rally the Carthaginians? Details matter. Magnus is not the right primarch for this sort of thing.

How about the detail that none of those other primarchs are released?

 davou wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well yeah. Would you expect Scipio Africanus to rally the Carthaginians? Details matter. Magnus is not the right primarch for this sort of thing.

How about the detail that none of those other primarchs are released?

True, but Abby is out, isn't he? Why not have him in the list, instead of magnus? Or instead of one of the knights? Abbadon would be fluffy.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 davou wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well yeah. Would you expect Scipio Africanus to rally the Carthaginians? Details matter. Magnus is not the right primarch for this sort of thing.

How about the detail that none of those other primarchs are released?

True, but Abby is out, isn't he? Why not have him in the list, instead of magnus? Or instead of one of the knights? Abbadon would be fluffy.

perhaps because it was a team torunament, not a narrative campaign?