Ultramarines new chapter tactic on the community web site

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**Crimson**

Melissia wrote:
Okay. What will ultramarines lose to get this?

Apart from looking embarrassing, nothing. And if that's taken account in the marine point costs, that's fine.

I actually don't mind ultramarines getting this as long as everyone ELSE-- including non-marine armies-- gets something equivalent. But I'm curious as to what you think they'd lose.

They might or they might not. And again, as long as that is taken account in the point costs, it's fine. It's not like the every army in the game has to have the equal amount of special rules.

**Luke_Prowler**

The fear that fallback was going to be a slap on a wrist is starting to creep back.

I would say the usefulness of the UM CT is pretty high. Yes, it's useless if the squad is wiped out, but that's literally the worse case scenario and true of most units. Reanimation Protocal can't be used if the warrior are wiped, Boyz can't 'Ere We Go! if they've been pulzerized, and fire warriors won't get support from The Greater Good if the units around them have ceased to exist.

The +1 to leadership is generally useful because that allows for large squads without fear of losing models from morale, and large squads means less drops for an easier time going first, as well as resistance to abilities revolving around leadership. Since this also applies to HQs, that means better LD auras.

The ability to fire after falling back in incredible useful when considering SM have BS 3+ native. meaning they're as effective as falling back crisis suits. Yes, dedicated assault will mulch tacicals, but that basicly means "don't get in assault with genestealers/berzerkers). Mean while is makes locking down units with non-assault vehicles or chaft units, or dragging in units not targeted with pile in, less viable.

If anyting, I think it won't result in defensive gunlines, but aggressive combined arms staregies. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty as always, but against other mixed arms units (aka other marines) you can out damage them via shooting, assaulting, and falling back because the two bolter rounds at 4+ is better than the one bolt pistol at 3+. Plus being able to use your special weapons again. flamers in particular are going to be a helpful addition to the units, because of auto hitting.

**Purifier**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

No disagreement there. I'd love to see motivation for restricting oneself to a single army. Possibility for running allied things still being there for those that think it's worth the trade, I would really like to see pure armies make a resurgance.

well, matched play already does that in that every unit in the army must share at least 1 keyword.
So no taudar, but you can still have a combined imperial force. Which is fine, because that's how it should be. Imperials should work together, and there's numerous examples of that in the fluff.

yes, and my argument was that they should be able to but then they don't get the cool bonus chapter tactic for being completely focused on their own stuff. Nowhere did I say they shouldn't be able to buddy up. I said there should be an incentive to not do it. Fluff saved! Yay!

Crimson wrote:
Purifier wrote:

Inquisitors could easily be an exception, together with assassins. I don't see why he'd need to bring SoB, though.

In this case because the Inquisitor needed a troop choice for his patrol detachment..

They should be a part of their own distinct army with their own distinct bonuses.

Sure. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use them as allies.

I understand that a lot of people have some sort of PTSD about superfriend deathstars of previous editions, but due the keywords that gak is pretty much killed already, so I really don't see a reason to further limit allies. I really hate how this stuff works in AOS, making fun and varied armies is unnecessarily punished, I don't want to see that in 40K.

I don't think losing a single army wide bonus is unnecessarily punishing. I think it's an extremely light trade-off for expanding your pool of available units manyfold.

**Mr Morden**

Crimson wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

True, good catch. Applies only to unique Elysian datashhets and not to othe IG units that can be included.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

I really, really hope not. Limiting it to detachment is fine, and it would be silly if Ultramarines suddenly forgot their tactics if an Inquisitor and a squad of SoB were present.

Well there is already silliness in name of balance - Imperial "Medics" can only heal thier own sub faction. They can't get into each others vehicles etc - they make sense from a balance but not fluff perspective.

It will be interesting to see if one of the Chapter Tactics is the same as the Elysian one but no points are paid.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Melissia wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You people need to chillax. Everyone is getting the same treatment of "Chapter Tactics". Just wait your turn is all. If the rules are this cool, my Skitarii, Necrons, and CSM/SM will be happy.
I hope so. If everyone gets powerful army-specific rules, then everyone usually has at least one way to win.

I just hope BA gets some good assaulty rules, and sisters get new units along with their probably revised (for the billionth time) acts of faith.

My guess is BA will get a +1S bonus on the charge again, but no clue on the second part (perhaps a flat movement bonus?).

Sisters will probably have one for reusing Acts Of Faith or one that allows rerolls on the Flamers hits and stuff. That's mostly what I'm expecting but we shall see.

**Melissia**

Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

**Purifier**

Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

And we used to drop them for melta spam, which was... flat out better.

**Pancakey**

Mr Morden wrote:
verticalgain wrote:
sossen wrote:
Having to restrict a whole detachment to one subfaction is not a problem when you get three detachments and they can be structured very flexibly. Even if you design your detachments poorly it only means that you lose 1 CP. Hardly a big loss if you play UM and get 10 CP anyway thanks to Roboto Undercostedman.

There's also the possibility it will be an army-wide requirement like Canticles of the Omnissiah.

And if it is detachment-specific, the more non-CHAPTER models that are brought along in other detachments mean less models to take advantage of the Chapter Tactics.

Will depend on the other CT's as well I think - if you have say Chapter tactics: <Iron Hands> giving Vehicles a boost then you might have you infantry detachment being UM and your Vehicles IH etc?

Canticles is Detachment not army - you get the benefitsonly if all in specific detachment have it?

This will happen 100%

**Insectum7**

Flamers on overwatch are preeeetty goooood.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

How so? Storm Bolters are just assault 2, right?
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

**Purifier**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

How so? Storm Bolters are just assault 2, right?
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

8" in an army that does not in any way want to get into melee combat with anything but a few mediocre melee units.

**Ratius**

Ratius wrote:

Why is the Ultramarine one necessarily worse, if it's the mere fact that it's a deviation from the core ruleset? After all, as you say, it's bad because it "sets a dangerous precedent" - not for another reason.

As I said I dont think the UM rule is necessarily OTT or broken (until we see it tested etc). My point is that the rule confers a free army-wide bonus which is blatantly outside of those core rules.
As Morden has pointed out, other units PAY for that ability or to "unlock" it one must have an officer or a special character or what not.
UMs dont - they simply show, up, place their army down and get the rule.

I dont want to get bogged down in the idea of the rule, merely that if GW continue to give armies army-wide bonuses that are outside the core ruleset, 8th will end up in a very bad shape. YMMV but thats my opinion
Would people be happy if Nid units ignored the d6 advance rule and instead got a flat 6" "free" advance?
Would people be happy if Nightlords got a special "can hide rule" where their vehicles get cover even if not 50% obscured?
Would people be happy if DE got an army wide rule where units cannot fall back from combat with them ala their Wyches rule?
Etc etc.

Um yeah I don't think people will care when specific sects of armies can do that.

You people need to chillax. Everyone is getting the same treatment of "Chapter Tactics". Just wait your turn is all. If the rules are this cool, my Skitarii, Necrons, and CSM/SM will be happy.

Plus they're listening to criticism (apparently) so if we think an army is underpowered in some aspect we can help. However, your constant whining, when we don't have an idea of the rules yet you proclaim Ultramarines are broken and ruin the game, is literally going to do no good. None.

Since when was constructive and open concern about rules branded as whining?
I also never said UMs are broken - nor the CT rule.
If you're going to quote me then please actually read my concerns about universal army wide buffs and lay off the underhand name calling. Thanks!

**Mr Morden**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

How so? Storm Bolters are just assault 2, right?
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

nope they are Rapid Fire 2 so 4 shots at 12".

**CthuluIsSpy**

Mr Morden wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

How so? Storm Bolters are just assault 2, right?
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

nope they are Rapid Fire 2 so 4 shots at 12".

Oh, well that's better at short range than before.
Yeah, a little bit better than flamers. Its not autohit, but you are guaranteed to always have 4 shots at slightly longer range than flamers.

**Melissia**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

For the price of a nine point flamer, you could equip a battle sister squad with three storm bolters (two special weapons sisters, and the sister superior) and be one point shy of a power sword/power maul. These three storm bolters are able to fire multiple times a game, where a flamer you'd only ever get to fire once before your squad got assaulted.

So there's your choice, what would you pick; three storm bolters and three spare points for something else, or a single flamer?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Melissia wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

For the price of a nine point flamer, you could equip a battle sister squad with three storm bolters (two special weapons sisters, and the sister superior) and be one point shy of a power sword/power maul. These three storm bolters are able to fire multiple times a game, where a flamer you'd only ever get to fire once before your squad got assaulted.

So there's your choice, what would you pick; three storm bolters and three spare points for something else, or a single flamer?

Yeah, you have a point there. Sounds like flamers are overpriced

**Melissia**

Flamers were stronger back when they were template weapons which Sisters could turn in to pseudo-Rending weapons with an act of faith.

**Purifier**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

For the price of a nine point flamer, you could equip a battle sister squad with three storm bolters (two special weapons sisters, and the sister superior) and be one point shy of a power sword/power maul. These three storm bolters are able to fire multiple times a game, where a flamer you'd only ever get to fire once before your squad got assaulted.

So there's your choice, what would you pick; three storm bolters and three spare points for something else, or a single flamer?

Yeah, you have a point there. Sounds like flamers are overpriced

In this army, yes. For anything that can soak a charge, they're not. Flamers are a very good example of something that has a wildly different value on different units. In a vacuum they're amazing stats, but on the wrong model they're still pants. Now on a Penitent Engine, however...

**Melissia**

Yeah. Bear in mind, also, that a flamer literally doubles the price of a battle sister.

**Purifier**

Melissia wrote:
Yeah. Bear in mind, also, that a flamer literally doubles the price of a battle sister.

Plasma Caliver almost tripples the cost of a Skitarii, but unlike the flamer on the sister, it's absolutely worth it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Melissia wrote:
Well at least that would get Sisters players to bring their flamers out again. Right now, everyone's dropped them for storm bolters, which are generally flat out better.

My personal hope would be a universal Act Of Faith that's unique to each Order. That's how I would design it, anyway. What each one would be I have no clue haha. I tweak stuff, not design.

**BrianDavion**

as for what UMs will lose by taking it, the answer is obvious, access to other chapters tactics. and in my experiance UM CTs are "solid, reliable and decent, but nothing to be excited about"

**Aenarian**

BrianDavion wrote:
as for what UMs will lose by taking it, the answer is obvious, access to other chapters tactics. and in my experiance UM CTs are "solid, reliable and decent, but nothing to be excited about"

If this is solid and decent, I hope the other ones also stay solid and decent instead of incredible and terrifying.

**JNAProductions**

These are fine so long as they come with a minor points increase.

I do agree that the UM CT are pretty dang potent, but if they pay an extra 1-3 points per model on everyone, you know what, that's fine. But if it's free... Well then. Sucks to not have a codex, because you're outright weaker than anyone who does.

**BrianDavion**

JNAProductions wrote:
These are fine so long as they come with a minor points increase.

I do agree that the UM CT are pretty dang potent, but if they pay an extra 1-3 points per model on everyone, you know what, that's fine. But if it's free... Well then. Sucks to not have a codex, because you're outright weaker than anyone who does.

depends how it's done, if, for example, I have to take an all UMs army that means I can't take say... custodes guard for a unit of "super terminators" and need snipers instead of the assasin, etc

I also suspect marines are pointed and balanced around the assumption of it, IIRC at the ITC Vanilla marines where just this side of weak. and if thats the case chapter tactics should push them up into a nice and solidly balanced position

**Zognob Gorgoff**

This is great it is harping back to the old atsknf + ultramarine ability to choose to pass or fail a morale check pulling out of an assault then double tap into it. I like. Excited to see other armies abilities. And it seems really powerful but in all honesty the meat of your army - infantry like 5 mans squads of tac or Primaris get assulted by dedicated meat they are going to get whooped of a few men regardless anyway so the damage they do back is going to be marginal most of the time. Dreads will be gold at using this ability and may really shine when they have always been a bit lacking. Will be nigh impossible to tar pit ultramarines but that's fine can still tar up vehicles and meq are not terrifying in the board spectrum. I'd be much more terrified of boyz being able to do this. All those hits and all that dakka. Looking forward to ork chapter traits and necron ones!

**MaxT**

A note, just because Chapter tactics didn't cost points before doesn't mean they don't cost points now. In Matched play it's trivial for GW to add a Ultramarines Chapter tactics = 50 pts per detachment if they want to.

Not saying they have, but it's certainly possible.

**verticalgain**

Think about how this will actually work.

5 Terminators charge 5 Tac guys. They make it through overwatch, fight and kill 3 Tac marines. The 2 Tac marines fight back to no effect.

Next turn the Tac squad decides to fall back using UM CT. They get 4 shots from their bolters at 4+ to hit instead of 2 shots from their bolt pistols at 3+ to hit.

That is hardly a game breaking advantage, and this seems like the typical way this will play out. Falling back happens after the fighting, and anything charging SM should be able to kill a few. Squads are almost universally 5 man.

I am assuming Imperial Fists are going to get Bolter Drill, which would be objectively more powerful and I'm not even a little salty about it. As long as all of the armies are playable and capable of winning they shouldn't be 'equal.' Bangles should get some kind of assault bonus, Yiffs should get +1Wolf to their WolfWolf. It makes the game flavorful.

**Daedalus81**

Purifier wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
With flamers you get D6 autohits, resolved at the same strength as a SB.

For the price of a nine point flamer, you could equip a battle sister squad with three storm bolters (two special weapons sisters, and the sister superior) and be one point shy of a power sword/power maul. These three storm bolters are able to fire multiple times a game, where a flamer you'd only ever get to fire once before your squad got assaulted.

So there's your choice, what would you pick; three storm bolters and three spare points for something else, or a single flamer?

Yeah, you have a point there. Sounds like flamers are overpriced

In this army, yes. For anything that can soak a charge, they're not. Flamers are a very good example of something that has a wildly different value on different units. In a vacuum they're amazing stats, but on the wrong model they're still pants. Now on a Penitent Engine, however...

This seems like a pretty nonsensical argument. They're firing overwatch before they take the loses in combat. The flamer exists at the time of being charged.

The *reason* a flamer is good is because it won't roll to hit on overwatch. This doesn't make it any different if it's on a gaunt, sister, ork, or marine. It still kills the same exact way.

If you wanted to walk up to a unit, and light them up with 5D6 S4 hits and then let them charge and take 5D6 S4 hits - that's what flamers are for. If you want to shoot something sooner and get some extra shots in up close and have a crummier overwatch - that's what storm bolters are for. It is no burden to add a flamer or two to make charging hurt.

And an autohit is worth 1.5 bolter shots making D6 worth 5.3 bolter shots - as an average.

**BrianDavion**

Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
This is great it is harping back to the old atsknf + ultramarine ability to choose to pass or fail a morale check pulling out of an assault then double tap into it. I like. Excited to see other armies abilities. And it seems really powerful but in all honesty the meat of your army - infantry like 5 mans squads of tac or Primaris get assulted by dedicated meat they are going to get whooped of a few men regardless anyway so the damage they do back is going to be marginal most of the time. Dreads will be gold at using this ability and may really shine when they have always been a bit lacking. Will be nigh impossible to tar pit ultramarines but that's fine can still tar up vehicles and meq are not terrifying in the board spectrum. I'd be much more terrified of boyz being able to do this. All those hits and all that dakka. Looking forward to ork chapter traits and necron ones!

Agreed. it'll be fun to see what everyone gets. some'll be better then others but the UM one feels right. it's a small change but it'll really make you have to adapt your tatics when fighting them.