Ultramarines new chapter tactic on the community web site

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**Ix_Tab**

verticalgain wrote:
Ix_Tab wrote:
It is obviously a fairly powerful ability. My concern is the way it reduces overall tactical depth, kind of a dumbing down.

Could you explain that more?

If anything, 20 different chapter tactics / faction abilities add more options/possibilities to the game, which would increase the depth and tactical complexity.

How is adding complexity dumbing something down?

Most likely you are right, the other stuff shown during the battle today, spending CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master, getting CP back on a 5+ and the objective secured esque rule seem like they will add complexity to a degree. However I still feel the rule in question (probably the most impactful thing we have seen from the codex so far) does reduce tactical depth, it removes an entire tactical approach to combating a UM inf/dred gunline with durable low output units. It is not the entire concept I am critiquing just this 1 example.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
It makes falling back the obvious choice when you get into combat. It's no longer a hard decision. Also having different tactics only gives possibilities if they are balanced. If there is a best choice, most people will pick that and then it's back to the mono build armies of 7th.

Did that ever matter with shooty units? Yeah that Tactical Marine or Sternguard squad can retaliate, but realistically how many did you kill on that charge?

**BrianDavion**

Melissia wrote:
As opposed to every chapter being the exact same, which is basically monobuilds of a different variety?

I mean FFS I'll complain all day about the fact taht GW is likely to release 10 space marine codices this year before they ever get to anything else. But it's not because I think space marines don't deserve the variety. I just think others need to get in on the action too.

and it sounds like GW has heard that. chapter tactics where proably one of the most popular things to come outta 6th and 7th edition. the CSM players screaming for their own version, I feel fell on ears, and GW realzied this type of varity is popular, I'd expect every army whom REASONABLY can have chapter tactics to receive a version of them.

obviously some armies won't get em,+ most likely stuff like the custodes, Imperial Knights (although I'd be easy to have "household traits") but everyone'll get em.

**ZebioLizard2**

Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
I think that a lot of the hate for this also comes from the fact that UM keep getting stuff when they already have the most stuff. If I was starting a space marine army, why wouldn't I pick Ultramarines? You get access to a ton of stuff and a chapter tactic that will always be useful. Hopefully the codex stops that and starts to give more to the other chapters, but I doubt it.

As far as the rule goes, i'm a bit torn about it. It's nice to make chapter tactics meaningful but it will be hard to keep all the army and faction special rules equal in the future if they do so much. This is really what caused a lot of the problems in 7th. I think going with weaker chapter tactics across all factions would have been smarter for balance, even if it makes for less diversity.

Hmm.. Keeps giving UM stuff. I think Ultramarines have only gained Telion & Cronus in 5th, and then Roboute Guilliman later with Gathering Storm.

The rest came about because the SM book was originally Codex: Ultramarines

obviously some armies won't get em,+ most likely stuff like the custodes, Imperial Knights (although I'd be easy to have "household traits") but everyone'll get em.

You could easily have Household Traits, there was actually a formation for a specific household in 7th with the The Exalted Court of House Terryn.

**Mr Morden**

BrianDavion wrote:
Melissia wrote:
As opposed to every chapter being the exact same, which is basically monobuilds of a different variety?

I mean FFS I'll complain all day about the fact taht GW is likely to release 10 space marine codices this year before they ever get to anything else. But it's not because I think space marines don't deserve the variety. I just think others need to get in on the action too.

and it sounds like GW has heard that. chapter tactics where proably one of the most popular things to come outta 6th and 7th edition. the CSM players screaming for their own version, I feel fell on ears, and GW realzied this type of varity is popular, I'd expect every army whom REASONABLY can have chapter tactics to receive a version of them.

obviously some armies won't get em,+ most likely stuff like the custodes, Imperial Knights (although I'd be easy to have "household traits") but everyone'll get em.

I can't think of many armies that could not and should not have the same free bonuses?

Necrons: Dynasty / Flayer Cult (?)
Sisters: Order
Guard: Regiments - especially Guard who have far far more variety than the Astartes ever had and probably THE most diverse fighting force in the background
Knights: Household
Dark Eldar: Kabal / Cult
Eldar: Craftworld
Tyranids: Fleet,
Tau: Sept (maybe something about Kroot Bloodlines?)
Orks: Klans and Kults
Chaos: Legion/ Renegade/Cult

Less likely but doable: Custodes and Sisters of Silence

Assassins are tricky. Inquisition sort of have some Ordo stuff and rules but it is very limited and is one of things that does need a major expansion especially if they can include the minor Ordos.

Daemons - Cabal or something?

Who have I missed

**The_Grey_Knight**

Spoiler:

Arandmoor wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Arandmoor wrote:

This x1000. It's the exact same problem I brought up in the chapter tactics thread from a few weeks ago.

If you're going to make a chapter codex that isn't just "vanilla space marines, BUT BETTER!" like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, any disadvantages you put in to offset the chapter advantages you give them need to be disadvantages that you will feel in game. Your advantage needs to make you feel like you chose this army for a reason and, similarly, any disadvantage needs to almost make you regret your decision. This preview "chapter tactic" is BS. It costs them nothing, and gives them a serious advantage. With this, Ultramarines will now be "vanilla marines", and actual vanilla marines will be something you take when you don't know any better.

If they balance this properly (they probably won't but in theory), no one is 'vanilla but better', they're just different. Every chapter gets something, their 'disadvantage' is that they don't get the stuff other chapters get. Then the point cost takes that capability in account.

If every chapter gets assigned, or gets to pick, a small advantage like this it will be fine. My problem isn't with vanilla marines, or near-vanilla marines.

My problem is going to be with Blood Angels and Dark Angels, and any other chapter that get their own physical book "juse 'cause", that get everything normal marines get, plus a bunch of special units that only they can take, plus a chapter-wide advantage like +1 S on the charge or something pants-on-head retardedly strong, AND don't actually pay for any of it except by maybe losing access to a unit or two that they can either easily cover the loss of by taking something else or by it being a unit they probably wouldn't normally take (*cough*spacewolves*cough*).

Basically, I am fully of the opinion that simply removing a chapter's access to certain units isn't actually a disadvantage in most cases, and that anything a chapter uses to "pay" for an above-and-beyond advantage needs to come in the form of a rule that will impact them in play. This is because of the transient and quantum nature of army lists from game to game. Losses do not carry over from one game to the next, and there is nothing stopping you from simply altering your list when you go from one game to the next based on your expectations of your opponent.

Lets take Blood Angels for example. How do you remove access to something that will penalize them, without gimping them? No tac squads, but assault squads are troops as long as they don't take jump packs? Is that actually a disadvantage when they get +1S in the turn they charge and can still take predators, and whirlwinds, and landspeeders? Do we keep going and remove their access to devastators? Vindicators? Centurion Devastators?

If they need to shoot, they'll just spam the one unit you leave them that can shoot unless you remove that capacity from their army list completely. Their disadvantage won't actually be a disadvantage. It will simply dictate their army structure.

How about we completely remove their access to anti-air guns. No icarus autocannons. No skyhammer missile launchers. No flack missiles in their Tac squads. No. Blood Angels are so bat-s**t crazy, they perform anti-air maneuvers against supersonic targets with jump-pack equipped assault marine squads, krak grenades, and melta bombs (you know...like real men). That and good ol' mass bolter fire is the only anti-air the chapter has got. Problem here is that if their opponent doesn't field flyers, the BA player, again, won't notice his disadvantage.

Removing access to units doesn't disadvantage an army. It just helps shape their list.

Now, what would I do to balance something like this?

For an advantage as stupidly OP as +1S on the charge, I'd penalize the shooting with any heavy-type weapon by 1. Baal laspred? -1 to everything. Vindicator? -1 to the cannon. Stormraven gunship? -1 on top of the movement penalties, and on top of that I'd probably remove the stormtalon and stormhawk from their list entirely just because they'd be, effectively, at BS 5+ with them in most cases.

Besides, in the case of the stormhawk, they have assault marines with jump packs...

How about this ultramarine "everyone has fly, but worse" rule?

If every marine army gets something like this, then we can just count it as part of the baseline. I'm not worried about the baseline. It's the outlier codicies that tend to get out of control a bit.

Grey Knights say hi!

**ZebioLizard2**

I'm honestly curious how many would be complaining if it was anyone else besides Ultramarines

**verticalgain**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm honestly curious how many would be complaining if it was anyone else besides Ultramarines

People HAVE to hate the Ultramarines, because 4 editions ago someone wrote a Codex that said they were the best. Or something.

I don't get why people are acting like UM will be OP now, when the very same Codex is also going to have CT for Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, etc.

**Purifier**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm honestly curious how many would be complaining if it was anyone else besides Ultramarines

Right. Because people weren't complaining when Necrons first got Decurions. Or when the Eldar's new book came out and Shurikens were shown. Or any amount of times that wasn't Ultramarines.
Everyone on this forum has this dumbass weird whine that can be disproven by opening basically any thread at all. "Only Tau gets this much unwarranted hate!" "GW hates CSM!" "No one would have complained if it wasn't Ultramarines!" God it's tiring.

**ZebioLizard2**

Purifier wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm honestly curious how many would be complaining if it was anyone else besides Ultramarines

Right. Because people weren't complaining when Necrons first got Decurions. Or when the Eldar's new book came out and Shurikens were shown. Or any amount of times that wasn't Ultramarines.
Everyone on this forum has this dumbass weird whine that can be disproven by opening basically any thread at all. "Only Tau gets this much unwarranted hate!" "GW hates CSM!" "No one would have complained if it wasn't Ultramarines!" God it's tiring.

Oh no it tends to depend on a variety of things. People complained about Psuedo rending, but people generally didn't complain too much about battle focus. And the Necron Decurion got a mixture of hate and love.

Right now we're discussing things we knew was going to be coming and acting shocked that Chapter Tactics are pretty much close to what Chapter Tactics were in the previous edition nor did they say were going to really be changing too much of it! And my thoughts were on the fact that if people were showing off Blood Angels the reaction would be less mixed then coming in here.

Also thanks for the insult by the way.

**Luke_Prowler**

I feel like my points were ignored -_-

I also feel like people are only using tactical marines as the comparison. What about tac terminators? They're very likely to survive a charge, have lots of ranged ability they don't want wasted, and they have relentless so their heavy weapons aren't getting double penalties.

**Nightlord1987**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I feel like my points were ignored -_-

I also feel like people are only using tactical marines as the comparison. What about tac terminators? They're very likely to survive a charge, have lots of ranged ability they don't want wasted, and they have relentless so their heavy weapons aren't getting double penalties.

Do they?

**Luke_Prowler**

I'm pretty sure. Like 90%

Unless you're being coy in which just tell me I'm wrong.

**Nevelon**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I'm pretty sure. Like 90%

Unless you're being coy in which just tell me I'm wrong.

IIRC the only things that can move and shoot without penalty are centurions or things with PotMS.

Now if you are taking the heavy flamer, you auto hit...

**vipoid**

I really hope SMs have to pay for Chapter Tactics.

If not, it's just a free power boost for their army (on top of also getting access to Relics and new Stratagems and Warlord Traits).

Maybe other armies will also get this type of bonus but the issue is that they'll have to wait for their specific codex to be released. In the meantime, SMs (and other armies lucky enough to get codices) will have a significant advantage over them.

**jcd386**

It really seems fine for them to get a free thing. How anyone can be mad when other armies already have free army wide abilities (acts of faith, canticals, combat drugs) sort of eludes me. And if you want to compare ATSKNF as the thing marines got for free you can, but it's so useless compared to those other abilities that i find that kind of silly. Even the chaos marines have more flavor and a better ability than index marines.

The easiest way to add flavor to a army or unit is to let it selectively break one of the core rules. Khorne bezerkers, all harlequins, fliers, wulfen, and most units with a cool ability do this in one way or another, and it's fine.

Marines stats and abilities actually follow the most rules in the rule book, so that they are the boring base line that the other armies are in a way based on. Giving them chapter tactics to differentiate them from one another and add some flavor is fine and i would argue good for the game.

The only reason i can see for complaining is a weird jealously that your army doesn't have 5 slightly different but still fairly basic ways to play it, instead of being happy that you have a totally different flavor of play that is very far from that baseline of marines. Add to this that you've already been told that your army is going to get more flavor options similar to chapter tactics and all you have to do is wait for them to release the book, and the complaining seems even more rediculous. I'm sure GW wants you to have your rules as soon as possible (10 codexes by xmas sure seems like it) but they can't just release 25 books at once from a business standpoint.

**vipoid**

jcd386 wrote:
It really seems fine for them to get a free thing. How anyone can be mad when other armies already have free army wide abilities (acts of faith, canticals, combat drugs) sort of eludes me.

Do you have any proof that those things are free, as opposed to already being included in each model's cost?

Also, only one of those things you listed is even army-wide. There are many SoB units that don't get Acts of Faith, and a mere a handful of DE units that get Combat Drugs.

jcd386 wrote:
The only reason i can see for complaining is a weird jealously that your army doesn't have 5 slightly different but still fairly basic ways to play it, instead of being happy that you have a totally different flavor of play that is very far from that baseline of marines.

So if you don't think one army getting free bonuses is a good thing you're jealous of not having different styles of play? What.

**bullyboy**

it should not be free unless they remove options the UMs can take (which is unlikely). Sure, BAs and DAs get special rules, but they alos lose access to many units. Take DAs for example...no regular SM flyers, no centurions, etc, etc. If someone is playing a homegrown chapter, they get no special rule but are now paying the same points as the UM who get a free bonus. Why do UMs need more....got a frickin Primarch, tons of special characters, access to every unit, etc. So by all means, give them a unique chapter tactic, just make sure it's accounted for in some way and is not a free boon.

**Crimson**

vipoid wrote:

Do you have any proof that those things are free, as opposed to already being included in each model's cost?

Do you have any proof that the chapter tactics are not included in the marines' cost?

**Melissia**

So wait, your argument is that the current index books are costing marines for having chapter tactics, but without actually giving them chapter tactics?

**Lobokai**

Oh yawn. UM had this ability editions before... when no one else could fall back, autoregroup, and then shoot. It was good. Not some crazy great thing. I remember the vast forces of UM winners in major tournaments... oh yeah, no I don't.

If anything the UM players should have been freaking out that Tau, flying daemons, all things jet bike, etc all got their ability and they didn't.

I called this ability days before it was posted on WH40k Community. It was an easy call. If it wasn't for you, then you probably haven't played this game very long at all.

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
vipoid wrote:

Do you have any proof that those things are free, as opposed to already being included in each model's cost?

Do you have any proof that the chapter tactics are not included in the marines' cost?

The fact that it clearly isn't included in their cost? Otherwise they would already have a Chapter Tactic in their index (if only as a generic placeholder).

**Crimson**

Melissia wrote:
So wait, your argument is that the current index books are costing marines for having chapter tactics, but without actually giving them chapter tactics?

It is perfectly possible.

**Melissia**

I suppose. I just don't find it very believable.

**Crimson**

vipoid wrote:

The fact that it clearly isn't included in their cost? Otherwise they would already have a Chapter Tactic in their index (if only as a generic placeholder).

Or the didn't bother putting it there as the codex release was imminent anyway, and people would cry murder if tactics for their chapter weren't included in the index while Ulta tactics were (cause we know that would have been the placeholder.)

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
Or the didn't bother putting it there as the codex release was imminent anyway, and people would cry murder if tactics for their chapter weren't included in the index while Ulta tactics were (cause we know that would have been the placeholder.)

It's not impossible but it just makes no sense.

First off, they could have just used a generic chapter tactic (not the UM one). This would make sense as they'll probably need something like this anyway for players to use when they don't play one of the mainstream chapters.

Second, even if they didn't want to do that, then the logical thing to do is to knock the price of Chapter Tactics off every SM model that would benefit from them and then add those points back when the full codex (complete with chapter tactics) is released.

**Mr Morden**

Crimson wrote:
Melissia wrote:
So wait, your argument is that the current index books are costing marines for having chapter tactics, but without actually giving them chapter tactics?

It is perfectly possible.

Only if you think that tthe Index Marines are overcosted at this point?

**Crimson**

vipoid wrote:

First off, they could have just used a generic chapter tactic (not the UM one). This would make sense as they'll probably need something like this anyway for players to use when they don't play one of the mainstream chapters.

There was no such tactic before, all chapters have a parent legion.

Second, even if they didn't want to do that, then the logical thing to do is to knock the price of Chapter Tactics off every SM model that would benefit from them and then add those points back when the full codex (complete with chapter tactics) is released.

Maybe they did that, we'll see once the codex is released whether the prices are increased. But I find it equally possible that they did't bother, as the codex was coming soon anyway and it isn't such a big deal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:

Only if you think that tthe Index Marines are overcosted at this point?

It is not about whether GW thinks that.

But it seems plausible to me. Marines do not feel particularly effective to me right now. But it is really early to say.

I mean how many points people think chapter tactics are worth anyway? Maybe one point per an infantry model, two maybe, but that already starts to seem excessive. Do we really have at this point enough data that we can assess an effectiveness of a model accurately to the variation of single point? I don't think so.

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
There was no such tactic before, all chapters have a parent legion.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I could have sworn that there was a 'default' chapter tactic that you could choose to replace with one of the mainstream ones (like Ultramarines or Iron Hands). Or am I thinking of an older edition?

In any case, it still seems logical to have a generic chapter tactic, given that players are actually encouraged to create their own <chapter>.

Crimson wrote:

Maybe they did that, we'll see once the codex is released whether the prices are increased. But I find it equally possible that they did't bother, as the codex was coming soon anyway and it isn't such a big deal.

Perhaps, but that seems like a really bad idea to me.

**Crimson**

vipoid wrote:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I could have sworn that there was a 'default' chapter tactic that you could choose to replace with one of the mainstream ones (like Ultramarines or Iron Hands). Or am I thinking of an older edition?

You're misremembereing. There was some chapter customisation in the fourth edition, but that was before the traits and was a different system. As long as traits have existed they've belonged to named chapters or their successors.

That being said, more freeform chapter tactics would be nice (albeit more difficult to balance.) As the tactics usually have two effects, there could be a list of those and you could choose any two. I think the sky dwarfs in AOS have something like that.