Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 djones520 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
So eldar, particularly reaper spam dominates another edition. *Sigh*

That is sure to be fixed in March, when they do their next major FAQ update, and "fix" Reapers, while they break something new to become the hotness to sell everything.

I'll believe it when I see it. GW has a long. long history of Eldar being the top dogs. And everytime there was a general expectation Eldar would be toned down, GW took it even further over the top.

but you still looking at this level of tournaments for any kind of balance? seriously?

4 of the top 8 lists are Eldar, with 3 of them having Dark Reapers which make up about a quarter of each lists' model count.

I mean, eh? It's hard for me to care that much when you have fething Blood Angels, Daemons, some kind of Space Wolves/Assassins/BA abomination and Tyranids in there too.

If anything is disconcerting its that all the Eldar lists are basically Alaitoc. Understandable, but very dull.

Dark reapers spam is the new hotness and it's probably going to be nerfed soon but... suprprise suprise.... SM are still among the best lists. Some of them are soups of course but most of the stuff being SM and not AM, while there's even a BA list with only BA.

No matter what, power armour based lists are still among the most competitive ones, even if SM players always complain about their codex.

And this is one the most competitive metas, a famous tournament. Now consider semi competitive metas or local tournaments, SM are still quite strong even with eldar, tyranids and AM around.

 Blackie wrote:
Dark reapers spam is the new hotness and it's probably going to be nerfed soon but... suprprise suprise.... SM are still among the best lists. Some of them are soups of course but most of the stuff being SM and not AM, while there's even a BA list with only BA.

No matter what, power armour based lists are still among the most competitive ones, even if SM players always complain about their codex.

And this is one the most competitive metas, a famous tournament. Now consider semi competitive metas or local tournaments, SM are still quite strong even with eldar, tyranids and AM around.

Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

Also, Blood Angels are codex: SM so I'm not sure why you keep using the term to describe the top lists? Are there Sanguinary Guard in the SM Codex because that's what was being used along with Death Company. The only good SM lists were using Guilliman and vehicles NOT "power armor". As for Powered armored lists being good, again what armies were using those? Cultists and AM don't have power armor and just because they are in a CSM list doesn't mean anyone gives a damn about the space marine part of the codex.

Again, Blood Angels doing well with their unique units has nothing to do with overall SM issue.

Not a single one of those lists is truly reaper spam. Look at the lists properly!

"Quarter of each list's model count", with them being infantry, is an emotional not logical comment.

There was a whole lot of creativity going on with those eldar lists in the top 8. And a really refreshing mix of other lists in there too. No IG! No Nids, particularly tyrant spam!

 Kirasu wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dark reapers spam is the new hotness and it's probably going to be nerfed soon but... suprprise suprise.... SM are still among the best lists. Some of them are soups of course but most of the stuff being SM and not AM, while there's even a BA list with only BA.

No matter what, power armour based lists are still among the most competitive ones, even if SM players always complain about their codex.

And this is one the most competitive metas, a famous tournament. Now consider semi competitive metas or local tournaments, SM are still quite strong even with eldar, tyranids and AM around.

Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

Also, Blood Angels are codex: SM so I'm not sure why you keep using the term to describe the top lists? Are there Sanguinary Guard in the SM Codex because that's what was being used along with Death Company. The only good SM lists were using Guilliman and vehicles NOT "power armor". As for Powered armored lists being good, again what armies were using those? Cultists and AM don't have power armor and just because they are in a CSM list doesn't mean anyone gives a damn about the space marine part of the codex.

Again, Blood Angels doing well with their unique units has nothing to do with overall SM issue.

Except just a month ago GW said they'd be doing a re-balance twice a year. They specifically said...

We’ll also use these to address balance issues in the game, so these might include a few changes to rules for overly powerful, or underrepresented units.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/

AKA, they're on a twice a year cycle of making strong units, then weakening them, and picking a unit that isn't selling, and making that strong.

 Kirasu wrote:


Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

All the hated units that were spammed in the most competitive tournament lists have been nerfed after a few months. The conscripts+commissar, plasma scions, brimstones, ass can razorbacks, malefic lords spams were all nerfed. The "stormravens only" list was nerfed as well. If dark reapers are truly dominating the scene they will be nerfed with the next FAQs .

Addressing "Reaper Spam" is tricky, they are currently very good but any serious meddling with them will just result in lists changing to the next 'best' unit, most likely Spectres, Spiders, Spears, Dragon or even Wraithguard depending on theorycraft / meta

Based on that logic nothing gets addressed because that is always true. There are plenty of ways to fix reapers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sadhvikv wrote:
Not a single one of those lists is truly reaper spam. Look at the lists properly!

"Quarter of each list's model count", with them being infantry, is an emotional not logical comment.

There was a whole lot of creativity going on with those eldar lists in the top 8. And a really refreshing mix of other lists in there too. No IG! No Nids, particularly tyrant spam!

Well no IG is misleading as it appears in 2 top 8 lists just not a a majority of points mostly as chaff.

But I agree reaper "spam" is not a huge thing here only Nick has what I might call spam 17 reapers. No one else has more than 9. Nayden has 0. I'm interested by some of the character heavy lists I have seen I'm surprised they are doing so well with the beta rules in effect.

Also interesting that the pairings ended up with all the Aeldari players playing other Aeldari. So only 2 Will make the top 4, the other 2 will be either BA, SW, or DG.

Coldsteel wrote:
If you really look at the lists, only 1 of them spams reapers. 1 list takes 3 minimum squads, 1 takes 1 larger squad, and the other Eldar list takes none.

If you notice, the 4th list of the top 4 is missing the last part of the spearhead detachment. Also, the list adds up to 1742 from what is shown, giving about 258 points for 3x three reaper squads.

If the spearhead is filled out with three reaper squads, it's essentially the same list as Nanavati's.

Coldsteel wrote:
If you really look at the lists, only 1 of them spams reapers. 1 list takes 3 minimum squads, 1 takes 1 larger squad, and the other Eldar list takes none.

one of them takes a few min squads so that they can get most benefit from soulburst I think

Seems like eldar and blood angels are the strongest lists.

I’m actually surprised I thought chaos spam would do better but at least one list cracked the top 8. (I don’t think thousand sons codex will help much)

Tyranids kinda disappointed hopefully a genecult codex helps those poor bastards out.

I still think Astra militarum overly nerfed commissars and made conscripts overpriced so you didn’t get any real AM lists either.

Tau, necrons, dark eldar (and Orks in time) codex are due soon so they should get a boost

Ad mech are getting new knights, and a fw book soon so they should get a boost.

Overall I’d like to see reaver nerfed for eldar and commissars unnerfed and conscripts back to normal cost but same restrictions.

The reaper issue is really not a reaper issue. You're talking about a T3 3+ sv 27pt model with no ablative usually taken in small sqds. They are very squishy. The problem comes when you combine with Alaitoc (which basically every list did). If you nerf reapers, it hurts them in non Alaitoc lists, so somehow you have to address the -1 to hit issue, but that cat is probably already out of the bag.
Eldar are certainly not the powerhouse they once were, while still good, there is just a lot of xenos hate on here.

 bullyboy wrote:
The reaper issue is really not a reaper issue. You're talking about a T3 3+ sv 27pt model with no ablative usually taken in small sqds. They are very squishy. The problem comes when you combine with Alaitoc (which basically every list did). If you nerf reapers, it hurts them in non Alaitoc lists, so somehow you have to address the -1 to hit issue, but that cat is probably already out of the bag.
Eldar are certainly not the powerhouse they once were, while still good, there is just a lot of xenos hate on here.

Four of the top 8, out of 450 people, are Craftworld Eldar armies.

Not a powerhouse. People just hating on xenos. Right.

The problem with the reapers are the cost. They were closer to fairly costed in the Index, but I felt still low (I play Eldar myself, no hate here). Then the codex made them even cheaper. For a unit that can always hit on 3+, no matter your special rules otherwise, has multiple GREAT firing options... they are just way to cheap. Eldar have no end of solid heavy support options. The only one you ever see people bring in a competitive environment is the Reapers though. Because the value that they bring, for the points that you pay, makes it a no brainer. There is no competition with everything else. Make them alaitoc, put them in cover, with some farseer support, and you've got arguably the best unit in the game.

Three of the four are actually Ynnari Eldar mixed with craftworld, not specifically 'Craftworld Eldar.' There are combinations that Ynnari lists can achieve that can make them very powerful compared to using craftworld only. Which is why they had some nerfs after the Eldar codex was released.

Dark Reapers in the index were not undercost. They were probably a few points over because there were no craftworld attributes--alaitoc put them over the top with the price decrease in the codex.

 djones520 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The reaper issue is really not a reaper issue. You're talking about a T3 3+ sv 27pt model with no ablative usually taken in small sqds. They are very squishy. The problem comes when you combine with Alaitoc (which basically every list did). If you nerf reapers, it hurts them in non Alaitoc lists, so somehow you have to address the -1 to hit issue, but that cat is probably already out of the bag.
Eldar are certainly not the powerhouse they once were, while still good, there is just a lot of xenos hate on here.

Four of the top 8, out of 450 people, are Craftworld Eldar armies.

Not a powerhouse. People just hating on xenos. Right.

The problem with the reapers are the cost. They were closer to fairly costed in the Index, but I felt still low (I play Eldar myself, no hate here). Then the codex made them even cheaper. For a unit that can always hit on 3+, no matter your special rules otherwise, has multiple GREAT firing options... they are just way to cheap. Eldar have no end of solid heavy support options. The only one you ever see people bring in a competitive environment is the Reapers though. Because the value that they bring, for the points that you pay, makes it a no brainer. There is no competition with everything else. Make them alaitoc, put them in cover, with some farseer support, and you've got arguably the best unit in the game.

Take out the Reapers, how many Eldar are in that slot? Take out Alaitoc instead, how many are there? It's not an "Eldar cheese" issue, it really isn't.
I wouldn't mind an increase in cost of reapers to 33pts a model (I don't play them anyway), but I still don't think it addresses the real problem.
Look how many Space Marine lists are in the Top 8, nobody crying there. Other Xenos races (minus nids) don't have Codexes yet so understandable that they aren't in Top 8.

Knigths @272

 bullyboy wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The reaper issue is really not a reaper issue. You're talking about a T3 3+ sv 27pt model with no ablative usually taken in small sqds. They are very squishy. The problem comes when you combine with Alaitoc (which basically every list did). If you nerf reapers, it hurts them in non Alaitoc lists, so somehow you have to address the -1 to hit issue, but that cat is probably already out of the bag.
Eldar are certainly not the powerhouse they once were, while still good, there is just a lot of xenos hate on here.

Four of the top 8, out of 450 people, are Craftworld Eldar armies.

Not a powerhouse. People just hating on xenos. Right.

The problem with the reapers are the cost. They were closer to fairly costed in the Index, but I felt still low (I play Eldar myself, no hate here). Then the codex made them even cheaper. For a unit that can always hit on 3+, no matter your special rules otherwise, has multiple GREAT firing options... they are just way to cheap. Eldar have no end of solid heavy support options. The only one you ever see people bring in a competitive environment is the Reapers though. Because the value that they bring, for the points that you pay, makes it a no brainer. There is no competition with everything else. Make them alaitoc, put them in cover, with some farseer support, and you've got arguably the best unit in the game.

Take out the Reapers, how many Eldar are in that slot? Take out Alaitoc instead, how many are there? It's not an "Eldar cheese" issue, it really isn't.
I wouldn't mind an increase in cost of reapers to 33pts a model (I don't play them anyway), but I still don't think it addresses the real problem.
Look how many Space Marine lists are in the Top 8, nobody crying there. Other Xenos races (minus nids) don't have Codexes yet so understandable that they aren't in Top 8.

There are zero Codex: Marines lists in the top 8 actually. There are two Blood Angels lists (which may mean that the Death Company Captain warrants a nerf, he is pretty insane for his cost) and a Space Wolves list that is far beyond my feeble comprehension.

Blood Angels are Marines, unless you want to separate Ynnari and Craftworlds too

I don't have to, since every list with Ynnari in it also has an Alaitoc detachment.

Anyone have the SoB list?

I thought Don and the 12 PBC made too 8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Four of the top 8, out of 450 people, are Craftworld Eldar armies.

Not a powerhouse. People just hating on xenos. Right.

The problem with the reapers are the cost. They were closer to fairly costed in the Index, but I felt still low (I play Eldar myself, no hate here). Then the codex made them even cheaper. For a unit that can always hit on 3+, no matter your special rules otherwise, has multiple GREAT firing options... they are just way to cheap. Eldar have no end of solid heavy support options. The only one you ever see people bring in a competitive environment is the Reapers though. Because the value that they bring, for the points that you pay, makes it a no brainer. There is no competition with everything else. Make them alaitoc, put them in cover, with some farseer support, and you've got arguably the best unit in the game.

Have you thought that maybe some of the US top players are actually using eldar because they like them and are fun to play?

I heard one of the top 8 players was DQd. Not sure why though.

 Primark G wrote:
I heard one of the top 8 players was DQd. Not sure why though.

It wasn't a DQ, Josh voluntarily stepped down from the finals because of an incorrect scoring issue during his game with Brad Chester, which instead jumped Brad in the top 8 from 32nd place.

 Kirasu wrote:


Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

Um ... read the last line on their announcement in the March/September part of their update-policy.

If there is one unit that will be addressed in March, it's Dark Reapers, not least because Codex-release-to-CA-printer-deadline was probably not a window for anything.

I give Dark Reapers about another 6 weeks or so.

4/8 top players are Eldar soup/Aeldari - clearly OP, must nerf!

3/8 top players are Imperial soup/SM - *whistles and walks away*

Makes you wonder about the motivations of some people...or I guess some people just like to complain in general.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
4/8 top players are Eldar soup/Aeldari - clearly OP, must nerf!

3/8 top players are Imperial soup/SM - *whistles and walks away*

Makes you wonder about the motivations of some people...or I guess some people just like to complain in general.

It's the LVO. The list of the guy or girl ranked 500the is almost certainly still seriously OP and, for a fully balanced game of 40K in its entirety, in need of some adjustment vis-a-vis the entire game of 40K as a whole.

For balance 40K, stuff doesn't need to be balanced just against other stuff at tournaments. It needs to be balanced against a guy starting 40K with 2 Boxes of Dark Imperium or a guy running his fluffy all-Kroot list. Otherwise, it's not balance.

Looking at a highly self-selected sample that is in no way or shape representative of all mathematically possibly lists of 40K doesn't really give you that much insight into balance on, say, the bottom 30% of 40K lists (from the full range of all mathematically possible lists in the game as opposed to just the tournament stuff).

It would seem the bigger issue than any particular unit or faction is the use of multiple factions in order to abuse strategems in my mind. These lists are specifically designed to unlock a much larger toolbox of strategems. Something that was specifically thought to be abusive with the new daemon book and nerfed, but not with eldar and imperium. Shrugs...

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
4/8 top players are Eldar soup/Aeldari - clearly OP, must nerf!

3/8 top players are Imperial soup/SM - *whistles and walks away*

Makes you wonder about the motivations of some people...or I guess some people just like to complain in general.

People have been calling for Guard to be nerfed to the ground since the edition started so I have no idea what you're talking about. The pure Blood Angels list is a surprise and may point to the Death Company Captain being too good for such a low investment.