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 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's.. very strange

Those two aren't exactly commonly taken if I remember right.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Arbitrarily.. So these models were 100% balanced and are now undercosted in every list then right?

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Wow that ship has sailed fast.
I think we need to have a neew Godwing lay for internet. The first to use the term fanboy/white knight or hater loses!

 Galas wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Wow that ship has sailed fast.
I think we need to have a neew Godwing lay for internet. The first to use the term fanboy/white knight or hater loses!

Galas' law?

 bullyboy wrote:
Trouble is, how willing will GW be to change points now that they have these big $50 codexes out? Doubt they will make any changes to the codex, which is kinda pointless. Didn't even have the indexes out for a few months to get results back on games played. Same 'ole, same 'ole...it will be codex power creep per usual, and everyone will soak it up.

Sadly yes.

That's not how Godwin's Law works. It's not a "LOL YOU MENTIONED NAZIS YOU LOSE" thing, it is simply a statement that "As a discussion progresses, the probability of Hitler or Nazis being mentioned approaches one".

But isn't that why the points are in the back of the Indexes, and I'd assume Codexes as well? So you can just print off the new points and stick it in that section of your book? I wouldn't mind constant tweaking at the cost of having to carry an extra sheet of paper or two, if we get a better game out of it.

I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Sweet goodness. Can't wait for the Tau codex. Or Dark Eldar or Deathwatch. I watched most of the dex review and while I expected a lot after Khradron Overlords this codex takes their content and quality to a whole new level. They also seem to be adjusting points.

It's damn near impossible at this point GW doesn't at least consider some of the feedback in changing Tau.

Also I hope Watch fortress Erioch gets mentioned.

SilverAlien wrote:
C'mon guys, at least wait till the second page to start derailing.

BrianDavion wrote:

sossen wrote:
They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

that's pretty awesome, brings em back, amusingly to around what they where in the dark imperium box. heh.

I expect we will see this with a lot of the primaris stuff from DI and the other sets, as it looks like most of the testing for those boxes was self contained. This is one of the first times I've ever seen new GW models and units be almost universally overcosted, even the stuff that's just new models for old units like plague marines suffered from this.

GW has done that many times, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Sweet goodness. Can't wait for the Tau codex. Or Dark Eldar or Deathwatch. I watched most of the dex review and while I expected a lot after Khradron Overlords this codex takes their content and quality to a whole new level. They also seem to be adjusting points.

It's damn near impossible at this point GW doesn't at least consider some of the feedback in changing Tau.

Also I hope Watch fortress Erioch gets mentioned.

Let's hope the Tau don't get the 7th ed treatment. We'll be right back where we were.

Yeah the more I look at results I think we only need some small buffs. Even if we were in need of larger ones I think gradual buffs until it's just right is the way to go.

Meanwhile, BA are reduced to spamming a model I hate. I hope it gets jacked up in the codices or something. Feth that gak. Just hope our chapter tactic is better than IH. Yikes.

Martel732 wrote:
Meanwhile, BA are reduced to spamming a model I hate. I hope it gets jacked up in the codices or something. Feth that gak. Just hope our chapter tactic is better than IH. Yikes.

If nothing else, the Redemptor is definitely built in a way that it will have a Furioso Variant (all of the weapons are on one Sprue). I really hope that Descent of Angels lets let's us land right in our opponent's face.

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

Stormravens are ok.... if the rulebook allows 1 flyer per 1000 points. Playing against 1-2 of those flyers is absolutely ok. But stormraven spam is not even 40k imho.

Spamming doesn't always mean building overpowered lists. Guards and orks can be tough with a lot of bodies but they don't win games due to their cheap troops. 400 conscripts are also hard to buy, build and paint while 6+ stormravens don't need that much effort.

Any news on the undercosted Guilliman?

Yeah if any model needed a tiny points hike its Gulliman.

 Gamgee wrote:
Yeah the more I look at results I think we only need some small buffs. Even if we were in need of larger ones I think gradual buffs until it's just right is the way to go.

it may also be that Tau are simply missing something that will be "army defining" if sept tactics and tau specific stragiums are something they're planning around, I could see Tau prior to their codex being weaker as a result. Tau are very much an army that lends itself to stratigums in particular.

Tau are still the worst army in the game. Even if they have been winning slightly more their win rate is still atrocious. If all the other armies are competitive without their codex then just adding in new rules won't help since it will more or less keep the standings the same barring truly massive creep in the codex rules 7th edition "balancing" style which I don't want.

You need to remember that every army will be getting this treatment so if they are all increased proportionally without any balancing done then Tau will still be the weakest.

The biggest thing is ML's being utterly terrible and a lack of cost effective heavy units. Our infantry are great, but out anti-tank options are lacking. I know commander spam is great, but I hate spamming commanders it seems weird from a lore point.

Regular Tau anti-tank should be viable not resorting to needing to spam commanders. Commanders buffs to the army need to be made stronger, but they need to be increased in price (but not over priced) and then they will be more balanced. So this would mean bringing Tau big suits down a little and especially crisis suits.

That or they could go the opposite and buff Tau shooting and add on abilities proportionate to their high costs.

you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell. so if it's just a matter of "our anti tank options are a horriable value" there may, MAY be a light at the end of that tunnel

BrianDavion wrote:
you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell

I have spoken about it way too many times. The math is out there. The data is out there. Most Tau stuff is way too expensive for what it does. The only viable comp list we have is commander spam supported by mixed infantry and drones. The only cost effective units we have are drones, commanders, and vespids. Our basic troops are so-so. You can't win battles on troops alone. Anyways the math is out there. The proof is out there. Even with some exceptional Tau player pulling in some wins recently we are the worst army in the game. Also I don't think he factored in the ATC team games where Tau got stomped which might have brought us back into our own bottom tier faction ranking. Tau players are hanging up their army in 8th when they wish they could be playing them. It's bad. The more time that goes on the more correct the Tau players saying all of this form the beginning were.

People believed the Tau haters hype in 7th and clearly the balancing way over reacted and basically killed them. I'm the only person in my local to have won a game and it was more or less due to me getting god tier rolls on my Ta'unar titian surviving a crazy alpha and taking out a third of his flyer spam.

BrianDavion wrote:
you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell. so if it's just a matter of "our anti tank options are a horriable value" there may, MAY be a light at the end of that tunnel

Hammerhead vs 4 Las-Predator vs Standard T7 Tank

Hammerhead - 155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 6/6 * 3.5) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 87.18
Predator - 202 / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 38.95

New Predator at 190 points - 190 / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 36.64

Lower is better!

... What if ... Hammerhead/Railgun did 2d6 damage?
155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 6/6 * 7) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 46.5

then yeah, definatly needs some points adjustments. hopefully that'll come with the codex, or even Codex approved this christmas.,

What do the Tau have to do with Points values in the new SM codex?

Indeed.


One appreciates there's going to be comparisons made and so forth but let's not get too far off topic.


Ta.

Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

Any changes for Gun Costs?

 Talamare wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

Any changes for Gun Costs?

Every time someone shows them, they are too blurry to read for the most part. But from what I have seen, no weapon prices have changed.