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Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Sounds like the codex is a straight buff then. I guess they wanted to avoid the situation BA and DE had in early 8th when their codex came out and it made them both worse and presumably few people bought them as a result. I still think they would have done well to tone down the stronger models while buffing the weakest. I hope they deliver on their promise to recognise their mistakes (even small ones)

Besides the points costs, SM also have acquired the free buffs of chapter tactics, strategems and relics. Hope they hurry up with the other codexes so everyone is on a more level playing field.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me. I guess allies shenanigans weren't broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

Not as far as I can tell. To be fair though, many of the units that saw drops in price were terribly overpriced like the Vindicator, Drop Pods, and Inceptors.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me. I guess allies shenanigans weren't broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

Not as far as I can tell.

You can easily put another detachment with allies there (and not necessarily in the same one)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me.

Well, it depends on what you're not allowed to take and whether you planned to take it anyway.

Like, if you can't take Whirlwinds but never wanted to in the first place, then it's not a downside at all - it's a straight buff.

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me.

Well, it depends on what you're not allowed to take and whether you planned to take it anyway.

Like, if you can't take Whirlwinds but never wanted to in the first place, then it's not a downside at all - it's a straight buff.

No, it isn't limitations on Space Marine units. The limitation is that you can only take Space Marine units and they all have to be from the same Chapter (so no mix and match like the Stormraven and Stormhawk list that won some tournaments already). So no Vindicare Assassins or Ratlings or whatever. You have to take them in a separate detachment, which either comes with mandatory slots or -1 CP.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No, it isn't limitations on Space Marine units. The limitation is that you can only take Space Marine units and they all have to be from the same Chapter (so no mix and match like the Stormraven and Stormhawk list that won some tournaments already).

Oh, the horror. So Space Marines are restricted to using only units from their codex - which has substantially more units than any other army in the game.

You'll forgive me if I don't shed too many tears for those poor SM players.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So no Vindicare Assassins or Ratlings or whatever. You have to take them in a separate detachment, which either comes with mandatory slots or -1 CP.

Wow, so the army that already has access to more units than any other army has to take a whole second detachment to access anything from the entire Imperium.

Clearly SM players should petition GW to end the cruelty inflicted on them.

Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and specific Stratagem ARE gamebreaking atm

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and specific Stratagem ARE gamebreaking atm

You won't hear an argument against that from me. I have said exactly as much regarding said Chapter Tactics (I called them broken), then, upon seeing their new Strategem, I revised my answer to them being LOL! Broken. But that is one Chapter Tactic. Most of the Chapter Tactics range from pretty bad (BT, IF, IH) to alright (WS, UM). Only Salamanders and Raven Guard stand out as being over the top. If Raven Guard tactics were ineffective against stuff that ignores cover, I think they would be more balanced.

You don't need anything to go up in price... just limit the number of fliers allowed in games to 2 or 3.... if you keep limiting things people are going to not be able to Field their favorite models.

Again those lists made are extremely competitive builds. If you play friendly games just ask your opponent not to bring 5 storm ravens because it won't be fun... or just don't play them. My local GW maybe has 50-100 40k players it's easy to find a game with someone else. Don't play a really competitive player and expect to win, then complain how broke his army is when you knowingly went into that game.... I see that all the time, every time a person loses I see the OMG his army is broke. But when that person wins and crushes another OMG my army is fine it was a fair game. Just enjoy it and talk to your opponent before you play. I believe it even says something like that in the rule book.

And again with Tau, they arnt as dominant as they were in 7th but they still win. I've still seen Tau players do very good where I play. People are just so used to them being able to sit back and mess anything up, well now armies can clear the board on turn one or be just as shooty (Orks/Nids and Guard). 8th is a tremendous improvement over 7th, yeh there are hiccups but time will hopefully fix it. Let's just relax and have fun.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

Are you done failing comprehension?

Since when does 'not shedding tears' equal 'crying'?

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

Are you done failing comprehension?

Since when does 'not shedding tears' equal 'crying'?

There are different forms of crying, but this post isn't exactly contributing to the topic.

I don't think the BT Chapter Tactics is so bad, but I do like the melee focus to it.. But I do feel it could've had a bit more too it, SM aren't really a primary melee race, though I wonder if that'll change once we see a few lists.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

Relics are free? Where does that come from?

It isnt power creep when theres no Códices to compare
To see if this edition has power creep we need to wait for the second codex
But, those point reductions surprise me. Did they changed them At the last moment after index feedback?

No more rude posts directed at other posters - Rule #1 on Dakka is Be Polite!

Particularly, please stop going back and forth over "crying" - there are much more polite ways to make your point, and this is all really not relevant to the topic, either.

Thanks all

Asura Varuna wrote:
Relics are free? Where does that come from?

Various reviews and info on the threads - apparently a single relic costs nothing but you have to swap it for the appropriate item of wargear so you may have to buy that - so if you want a Relic Power sword - you need to buy one and then upgrade for free. A given model can only have a single Relic -so same as last edition - and hopefully will specifically include Tau's pseudo Relics this time...

It isnt power creep when theres no Códices to compare
To see if this edition has power creep we need to wait for the second codex

Well its certainly power creep over the indices - yes the second Codex will see if the increased power boosts are one of the prime selling points of the new Codex's or just the usual mix of Broken, good, bad and dismally balanced dexes.

Its a little fishy that the only apparent points changes this time round are reductions - especially given the discussions on certain flyers?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Well its certainly power creep over the indices - yes the second Codex will see if the increased power boosts are one of the prime selling points of the new Codex's or just the usual mix of Broken, good, bad and dismally balanced dexes.

Its a little fishy that the only apparent points changes this time round are reductions - especially given the discussions on certain flyers?

To be fair, this was probably final before 8th actually came out. Flyers are consistently very powerful across almost most factions -- the Stormraven is an outlier, but not too much of one -- so this just seems like a systematic error on GW's part.

Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

Naw, they will just say that they are the White Ravens.

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

My biggest concern is it's a little tricky to know what is strong or not when the Storm Raven is obscuring what is good.

It seems more reasonable to present the Storm Raven with a small nerf, than to buff literally EVERYTHING else to its level.

I don't know about other units, but Inceptors really needed that price drop, they were absurdly overcosted. They're probably OK now, which is nice as I really like the models.

But yeah, Stormraven needs a price increase.

I'm fine with points reductions. I'm not fine with no point increases.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't know about other units, but Inceptors really needed that price drop, they were absurdly overcosted. They're probably OK now, which is nice as I really like the models.

But yeah, Stormraven needs a price increase.

They are still pretty damn expensive at 60 pts per model with weapons. But they are at least not ludicrously overpriced anymore. And they hand out mortal wounds better as well.

I don't know if a price increase will help the Stormraven problem. If they increase it much at all, then people that aren't spamming it might find it hard to fit into their list. One Stormraven, like one Imperial Knight, and one Wraithknight, isn't generally a problem. It is when they are taken in groups of four or five that they become a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm fine with points reductions. I'm not fine with no point increases.

The video was blurry (probably intentionally), so it is quite possible that there are units went up in price. I just didn't see any.

I think anti-air should be significantly cheaper. But then there is the risk that Infantry units with Fly being screwed by that.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

So question, with all these point reductions for Space Marines, do Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels have to stick with the old points until they each get their own individual codex?