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 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
But since for some reason flyers are an exception to the rule and allowed to shoot, I believe they should have a -1 to hit. Just like firing assault weapons while advancing. Or heavy weapons while moving.

Try looking into the context of it and making sense of it there. Advancing while firing an assault weapon, you're running while firing a gun, you can't really expect perfect accuracy. Moving and firing a heavy weapon, a whole lot of uncompensated recoil there or you are not aiming properly and bracing in a different way to absorb more of the impact. when you're falling back with a fly piece, you're effectively backpedalling at your movement speed because you are moving using an external thrust, you can still fire at your opponent as you backpedal away.

if you tried doing this on foot, you wouldn't get very far as your opponent would chase you down very quickly. I know ultramarines can fire, but that's because they are strong tacticians so they probably have half the unit firing while the other retreats, then the halves swap roles in order to finish falling back and they will have been drilled in this tactic for years to perfect it.

Fly pieces would still suffer penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons due to the unique rules surrounding that, but it wouldn't be so hard for a unit that moves using an external thrust force to bring its weapon to bear as it moves away.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:
The fly special rule is consolation for Tau having zero close combat ability. If they didn't have something like that then the charge from deep strike rule would need to be removed. Going into a game vs Tau you should expect to have loads of fire coming your way and play accordingly, not demand rules to be changed so you can run up the board and remove units when you charge them.

Oh trust me, I did, and always have when facing Tau. I suppose there's a strong point to be made for the fact that the units charging weren't beefy enough (none of them were raptors), and some poor die rolling didn't help. Don't knee-jerk to what I'm saying here, I know points went up because they have fly, I don't disagree with their falling back and flying away. Hell even the shooting aspect makes sense, but I remain true to the fact that there is no negative for this, which I still think seems off.

A lot of folks are acting like I am taking issue with the fall back rules, and I'm not. But since for some reason flyers are an exception to the rule and allowed to shoot, I believe they should have a -1 to hit. Just like firing assault weapons while advancing. Or heavy weapons while moving. I'm not saying Tau specifically need to be nerfed, they just happened to be the one I was playing at the time.

That is a good point about the hard counter not being a thing... I agree there. I guess I just feel like their should be some negative side effect if you end up charged.

Your first post sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing the rules, so it's odd to tell people not to "knee-jerk to" what you're saying.

The general negative side effect if you end up charged is that the guys charging you are carrying weapons and they'll hit you with them. If those weapons aren't strong enough to kill something else that's capable of just flying up into the air, the chargers deserve some kind of negative side effect for trying use a chainsaw-sword against someone with wings or a jet pack.

Fly units with flamers/auto-hit are a problem due to the new overwatch. Other than that i'm fine with it.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:
The fly special rule is consolation for Tau having zero close combat ability. If they didn't have something like that then the charge from deep strike rule would need to be removed. Going into a game vs Tau you should expect to have loads of fire coming your way and play accordingly, not demand rules to be changed so you can run up the board and remove units when you charge them.

Oh trust me, I did, and always have when facing Tau. I suppose there's a strong point to be made for the fact that the units charging weren't beefy enough (none of them were raptors), and some poor die rolling didn't help. Don't knee-jerk to what I'm saying here, I know points went up because they have fly, I don't disagree with their falling back and flying away. Hell even the shooting aspect makes sense, but I remain true to the fact that there is no negative for this, which I still think seems off.

A lot of folks are acting like I am taking issue with the fall back rules, and I'm not. But since for some reason flyers are an exception to the rule and allowed to shoot, I believe they should have a -1 to hit. Just like firing assault weapons while advancing. Or heavy weapons while moving. I'm not saying Tau specifically need to be nerfed, they just happened to be the one I was playing at the time.

That is a good point about the hard counter not being a thing... I agree there. I guess I just feel like their should be some negative side effect if you end up charged.

There is definitely a negative; lets look at your situation:

The units were forced to move with heavy weapons. That right there is the -1 you were looking for, and while there are other ways to force them to move (e.g. hiding out of LOS), this way also does damage (your 1st assault hits against them)

Additionally, that really hurts a Stormsurge. The Stormsurge, if stationary, can fire twice - literally twice as good. But by forcing it to move, you halve its potency.

Each of those units was less good because you charged them than they would have been if you didn't, even if you had done 0 damage.

And ignoring Tau specifically, Units that fall back are not allowed to Charge, even if they Fly. This is a reduction in overall possible offense for those units.

Now Tau don't care because most of them don't want to charge, but there are plenty of Flying units that like to charge.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:
The fly special rule is consolation for Tau having zero close combat ability. If they didn't have something like that then the charge from deep strike rule would need to be removed. Going into a game vs Tau you should expect to have loads of fire coming your way and play accordingly, not demand rules to be changed so you can run up the board and remove units when you charge them.

Oh trust me, I did, and always have when facing Tau. I suppose there's a strong point to be made for the fact that the units charging weren't beefy enough (none of them were raptors), and some poor die rolling didn't help. Don't knee-jerk to what I'm saying here, I know points went up because they have fly, I don't disagree with their falling back and flying away. Hell even the shooting aspect makes sense, but I remain true to the fact that there is no negative for this, which I still think seems off.

A lot of folks are acting like I am taking issue with the fall back rules, and I'm not. But since for some reason flyers are an exception to the rule and allowed to shoot, I believe they should have a -1 to hit. Just like firing assault weapons while advancing. Or heavy weapons while moving. I'm not saying Tau specifically need to be nerfed, they just happened to be the one I was playing at the time.

That is a good point about the hard counter not being a thing... I agree there. I guess I just feel like their should be some negative side effect if you end up charged.

There is definitely a negative; lets look at your situation:

The units were forced to move with heavy weapons. That right there is the -1 you were looking for, and while there are other ways to force them to move (e.g. hiding out of LOS), this way also does damage (your 1st assault hits against them)

Additionally, that really hurts a Stormsurge. The Stormsurge, if stationary, can fire twice - literally twice as good. But by forcing it to move, you halve its potency.

Each of those units was less good because you charged them than they would have been if you didn't, even if you had done 0 damage.

+1

This is exactly what I was thinking while skimming through this thread.

Kudos.

 argonak wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
It is really annoying that fall back is a no-fail mechanic and many units including every wing/jump pack type plus even some non-flyers and every ultramarine just don't care about the "penalty" for doing so. Given that melee units need to go through being shot while outputting little to no damage, suck overwatch, make random charges including some very risky ones if they want to try deep strike charges, I would think that at least a chance of failing to fall back would be appropriate.

That being said, if you're fighting non-fly units, you can possibly keep them in by surrounding a guy with your final pile-in.

As for the rest, what I've gathered from my experience is that chaff melee units like bland assault marines are nigh worthless. They hit with their combat pillows and then their enemy just walks off chuckling. Hard-hitters that you can count on to wipe or completely cripple the target seem to be the only worthwhile melee units in the game right now.

I think its more that the right tool is needed for the right job. There's plenty of situations where bland assault marines might be completely successful. But too many people want to be able to just bring their one hammer tool and treat everything like a nail. Unfortunately that's not always the case, sometimes you need a screwdriver or a wrench. In my opinion, if you think you have to rely on hard hitters that can completely wipe or cripple every target, you're still falling into the same trap, except you're upgrading your hammer into a sledgehammer.

I mean, I can just shoot your tank with 500 lasguns if I want to (quantity has a quality all its own after all), but it'd be a lot more intelligent for me to shoot it with a couple lascannons instead. Right tool for the right job.

I know the "right tool" analogy always sounds like good wisdom, but it doesn't really apply here. When it comes to assault in this edition, the right tool is things that can make it there and hit hard enough to cripple or kill units. Things that can't make it there and can't at least hit that hard aren't different tools, they're just the same tool all rusty and falling apart.

Now if we were talking about a squad with thunder hammers and a squad with chainswords needing to each pick whether to assault a vehicle or a group of gretchin, the analogy would fit.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
It is really annoying that fall back is a no-fail mechanic and many units including every wing/jump pack type plus even some non-flyers and every ultramarine just don't care about the "penalty" for doing so. Given that melee units need to go through being shot while outputting little to no damage, suck overwatch, make random charges including some very risky ones if they want to try deep strike charges, I would think that at least a chance of failing to fall back would be appropriate.

That being said, if you're fighting non-fly units, you can possibly keep them in by surrounding a guy with your final pile-in.

As for the rest, what I've gathered from my experience is that chaff melee units like bland assault marines are nigh worthless. They hit with their combat pillows and then their enemy just walks off chuckling. Hard-hitters that you can count on to wipe or completely cripple the target seem to be the only worthwhile melee units in the game right now.

I think its more that the right tool is needed for the right job. There's plenty of situations where bland assault marines might be completely successful. But too many people want to be able to just bring their one hammer tool and treat everything like a nail. Unfortunately that's not always the case, sometimes you need a screwdriver or a wrench. In my opinion, if you think you have to rely on hard hitters that can completely wipe or cripple every target, you're still falling into the same trap, except you're upgrading your hammer into a sledgehammer.

I mean, I can just shoot your tank with 500 lasguns if I want to (quantity has a quality all its own after all), but it'd be a lot more intelligent for me to shoot it with a couple lascannons instead. Right tool for the right job.

I know the "right tool" analogy always sounds like good wisdom, but it doesn't really apply here. When it comes to assault in this edition, the right tool is things that can make it there and hit hard enough to cripple or kill units. Things that can't make it there and can't at least hit that hard aren't different tools, they're just the same tool all rusty and falling apart.

Now if we were talking about a squad with thunder hammers and a squad with chainswords needing to each pick whether to assault a vehicle or a group of gretchin, the analogy would fit.

You don't see value in having screening units to avoid overwatch or counter-assaults? Or to keep deep-strikers away?

Just use flamers. They are the best anti air weapon in the game right now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
faq changes things a bit...no more flyer only spam lists

Not what the topic is about. It is about units with the Fly keyword, not flyers.

woops... misread the header. my bad

Pancakey wrote:
Just use flamers. They are the best anti air weapon in the game right now.

Not so much.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
It is really annoying that fall back is a no-fail mechanic and many units including every wing/jump pack type plus even some non-flyers and every ultramarine just don't care about the "penalty" for doing so. Given that melee units need to go through being shot while outputting little to no damage, suck overwatch, make random charges including some very risky ones if they want to try deep strike charges, I would think that at least a chance of failing to fall back would be appropriate.

That being said, if you're fighting non-fly units, you can possibly keep them in by surrounding a guy with your final pile-in.

As for the rest, what I've gathered from my experience is that chaff melee units like bland assault marines are nigh worthless. They hit with their combat pillows and then their enemy just walks off chuckling. Hard-hitters that you can count on to wipe or completely cripple the target seem to be the only worthwhile melee units in the game right now.

I think its more that the right tool is needed for the right job. There's plenty of situations where bland assault marines might be completely successful. But too many people want to be able to just bring their one hammer tool and treat everything like a nail. Unfortunately that's not always the case, sometimes you need a screwdriver or a wrench. In my opinion, if you think you have to rely on hard hitters that can completely wipe or cripple every target, you're still falling into the same trap, except you're upgrading your hammer into a sledgehammer.

I mean, I can just shoot your tank with 500 lasguns if I want to (quantity has a quality all its own after all), but it'd be a lot more intelligent for me to shoot it with a couple lascannons instead. Right tool for the right job.

I know the "right tool" analogy always sounds like good wisdom, but it doesn't really apply here. When it comes to assault in this edition, the right tool is things that can make it there and hit hard enough to cripple or kill units. Things that can't make it there and can't at least hit that hard aren't different tools, they're just the same tool all rusty and falling apart.

Now if we were talking about a squad with thunder hammers and a squad with chainswords needing to each pick whether to assault a vehicle or a group of gretchin, the analogy would fit.

You don't see value in having screening units to avoid overwatch or counter-assaults? Or to keep deep-strikers away?

Not when the unit is too expensive to make an efficient screen. And if you're running good assault units, you don't really need a screen anyway. Anything the opponent throws in your face is a gift.

Why is the title so clickbaity?

10 REASONS WHY FLYERS ARE OP. NUMBER 7 WILL SHOCK YOU.

 Purifier wrote:
Why is the title so clickbaity?

10 REASONS WHY FLYERS ARE OP. NUMBER 7 WILL SHOCK YOU.

Not going to lie, I laughed

Talamare wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
So tell me then, what's the counter, since evidently you've got such a lock on things. You get the fact that I'm not complaining about the fact I missed that sentence, I'm disturbed by its existence. After talking to 6 different players there, no one had a hard counter for this. I'm restructuring lists in an attempt to mitigate some of it, but it still reads as a fundamental problem to me. I guess maybe it was just a one-off issue I had then, but I wonder if after SoCal open and LVO, more people suddenly realize that this is a problem.

If youi're Space Marines...

Guns?

Space Marine outshoots Tau at the moment, so... yea

There's your tool for the job. If they fly and shoot, you can shoot and charge but they can't charge. To take it further with Tau specifically they only operate in movement phase (either not allowed to move to receive shoot-buffing orders or flying into position typically which is DANGEROUSLY CLOSE) and shooting. Their penalty for having fly is that they completely lack psychic phase, are all but useless in CC, and are actually not very good at shooting. They are good at wounding (though they have no access to wound rerolls save kroot melee) and getting out of the most fatal thing they can get trapped in...melee. That -1 you want for falling back is applied to the whole army.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:
The fly special rule is consolation for Tau having zero close combat ability. If they didn't have something like that then the charge from deep strike rule would need to be removed. Going into a game vs Tau you should expect to have loads of fire coming your way and play accordingly, not demand rules to be changed so you can run up the board and remove units when you charge them.

Oh trust me, I did, and always have when facing Tau. I suppose there's a strong point to be made for the fact that the units charging weren't beefy enough (none of them were raptors), and some poor die rolling didn't help. Don't knee-jerk to what I'm saying here, I know points went up because they have fly, I don't disagree with their falling back and flying away. Hell even the shooting aspect makes sense, but I remain true to the fact that there is no negative for this, which I still think seems off.

A lot of folks are acting like I am taking issue with the fall back rules, and I'm not. But since for some reason flyers are an exception to the rule and allowed to shoot, I believe they should have a -1 to hit. Just like firing assault weapons while advancing. Or heavy weapons while moving. I'm not saying Tau specifically need to be nerfed, they just happened to be the one I was playing at the time.

That is a good point about the hard counter not being a thing... I agree there. I guess I just feel like their should be some negative side effect if you end up charged.

There is definitely a negative; lets look at your situation:

The units were forced to move with heavy weapons. That right there is the -1 you were looking for, and while there are other ways to force them to move (e.g. hiding out of LOS), this way also does damage (your 1st assault hits against them)

Additionally, that really hurts a Stormsurge. The Stormsurge, if stationary, can fire twice - literally twice as good. But by forcing it to move, you halve its potency.

Each of those units was less good because you charged them than they would have been if you didn't, even if you had done 0 damage.

That's a good summary of how the models with fly have penalties for falling back.

The thing about non-fly is that getting charged turn one means you don't play the game at all. Oh, i'm not allowed to use my models and they're doomed to repeat the cycle until I lose. Fly doesn't stop you from doing your charge and damage, it lets the other player play the game. You can move and charge again and maybe even get bonuses for doing so, you'll even have higher points efficiency than the person paying for fly units.

If it's any consolation some people, self included, have considered allowing reverse overwatch so pure melee armies can feel like they get an equal opportunity.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
I know points went up because they have fly...

...but I remain true to the fact that there is no negative for this, which I still think seems off.

wut.