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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.

You're really underselling tacticals here.

Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.

Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.

The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.

You're really underselling tacticals here.

Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.

Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.

The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.

But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead. Whereas if guardsmen die, your tanks have a new area to move in

Booger ork wrote:
But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead.

Congratulations, you found the flaw of playing an "elite" army that relies upon better stats and equipment. On the plus side, it also takes more firepower to remove a tactical squad than a guards squad.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.

You're really underselling tacticals here.

Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.

Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.

The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.

The problem is that Tacticals don't have a part of the army (Officers) that are supposed to give them buffs that affect a specific gun.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that Tacticals don't have a part of the army (Officers) that are supposed to give them buffs that affect a specific gun.

That's true, tacticals get more generalist buffs from more expensive officers (cap and lt give rerolls of 1s to hit and to wound, respectively, for less than 100 points each depending on gear). Though apparently, Imperial Fists get a stratagem that gives them a bolter buff.

 Melissia wrote:

Booger ork wrote:
But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead.

Congratulations, you found the flaw of playing an "elite" army that relies upon better stats and equipment. On the plus side, it also takes more firepower to remove a tactical squad than a guards squad.

Not that much more. Against lasguns: 90 hits to kill the squad(marines), 30 for the guardsmen. This means that the marines are going to die slightly faster, and that's against lasguns, designed to attack t3 models




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Booger ork wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.

You're really underselling tacticals here.

Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.

Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.

The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.

Find me a situation tacticals can do that guardsmen can't

Booger ork wrote:
Not that much more. Against lasguns: 90 hits to kill the squad(marines), 30 for the guardsmen. This means that the marines are going to die slightly faster, and that's against lasguns, designed to attack t3 models

Yes, 180 shots to kill a squad of marines.

To get those 180 shots in one turn, the guard player would need to spend well over twice the points of the tactical marine squad in guardsmen and commanders, and ALSO be in a position where the 50 guardsmen needed* would all fire in unison at the same target while all being in rapid fire range and unharmed.
*(it'd require more than this, actually; sergeants don't get lasguns)

Comparably, Using boltguns, it takes 35 shots to on average outright kill a squad of guardsmen in one turn, assuming the tactical marines have only boltguns (an unrealistic scenario to say the least), which a 10-man squad of only bolter-brothers can't deliver. Relying solely on shooting like this, however, doesn't use all of the strengths of the tactical squad. even if you take no special weapons on the tactical squad, its greatest strength would be to rapid fire and charge, killing six guardsmen (and taking on average no damage from overwatch due to it being at 6+), then dealing another ~4 damage, and usually outright wiping the squad out in one turn before consolidating either due to damage or due to morale. And this is done with one squad which in the process would take practically no damage.

Even if you did FRFSRF and then a charge, you'd need around thirty guardsmen, and a company and platoon commander, all managing to make their charge after rapid firing with the order, a much more difficult scenario to set up than a single tactical squad-- and still 40 points more expensive the tacticals.

Both of these situations of course rely upon being in a vacuum, but it does kinda prove my point that tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't OMG OP PLS NERF!, I wouldn't even say they're "strong", they're just decent.

Guardsmen are a shooty unit. They're best when shooting. They're not really generalists.

Updated shock troops to give them a face lift that is way overdue while also having all the special weapons options rather than just flamer and the still horrible GL.

Salamander kit!

A new commander rather than just Yarrick and Creed.

New Catachan models..

More new characters, more plastics, more ways to play Guard!

For the people interested in alternate guard regiments, I noticed that the metal Mordian infantry squad (the one that has lasguns and the sgt with power sword) is back in stock on GW's site.

$35 for 10 guardsmen isn't cheap, but they're metal and cheaper than ebay per model at the moment. I went in for two boxes.

Or.... Victoria miniatures Mordians. 40 Bucks (not including shipping) for ten guys with a whole bunch of options, a whole bunch of extra arms, guns, a special weapon, all convertable to GW models. All this in good quality resin.

I've got 20 of those guys. They're really well done, but I like the feel of metal more. I think that's just a personal preference. I save the resin guys for filling in the gaps in the army, like plasmagun infantry.

 Banelord300 wrote:
Updated shock troops to give them a face lift that is way overdue while also having all the special weapons options rather than just flamer and the still horrible GL.

Salamander kit!

A new commander rather than just Yarrick and Creed.

Cadia has fallen. Let someone else have the spotlight.

If Armageddon is going to play an important role in the future maybe it should be steel legion.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
If Armageddon is going to play an important role in the future maybe it should be steel legion.

Seconding this

i would like to see little and appropriate nerf to IG.

 nordsturmking wrote:
i would like to see little and appropriate nerf to IG.

What would you consider appropriate?

 vipoid wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
i would like to see little and appropriate nerf to IG.

What would you consider appropriate?

Going by the current attitude from Marine players, probably a halving of all stats and a doubling of the points cost. And orders being removed.

As far as rules go, I would be glad to see doctrines come back. Aside from that I would like some upgrade sprues with weapons, head swaps, cameoline cloaks, etc. It would be nice for GW to do something like this to add a little individuality and character to the guard, especially for modeling vets squads. As it stands now I do a lot of third party shopping to spice up the existing Cadian models.

I want to see vox not be useless.

Really, GW? You're trying to tell me if my squads are equipped with radios, you know, those things that transmit over city-wide areas, they can receive orders from a whole 18 inches away? A smidge further than a hellhound flamer can shoot?

I always thought the vox models looked so cool. But they always seemed like such a useless upgrade in every edition. They should make you be able to receive orders from anywhere on the battlefield. No range limit... And I would still debate not taking them.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I want to see vox not be useless.

Really, GW? You're trying to tell me if my squads are equipped with radios, you know, those things that transmit over city-wide areas, they can receive orders from a whole 18 inches away? A smidge further than a hellhound flamer can shoot?

I always thought the vox models looked so cool. But they always seemed like such a useless upgrade in every edition. They should make you be able to receive orders from anywhere on the battlefield. No range limit... And I would still debate not taking them.

Honestly, I couldn't see myself taking them even if they allowed that. With the new rules, range of orders just isn't an issue for me.

I do agree with you though. Honestly, given that this is the 41st millennium, I'd expect radios to be included as standard.

Some cool stand alone heros would be neat. Like somebody who is awesome but also doesn't require you to bring a Pl worth of troops because all he does is buff them.

(Marbo)

Marbo is a platoon.... a platoon of one.

Multilaser must drop in price to at least the same as a heavy bolter, considering it's equal or worse.

Chimera should drop in base cost at least 5 points. Or allow one embarked model to fire their weapon out of the top hatch. Or both.

Sentinels could use some sort of "weapon stabilizers" or something to allow to re-roll hit rolls of 1 or BS not being affected by moving. Just a little something. Right now it seems stupid to pay 60 points on a single BS4+ lascannon shot when you can have the same for the exact same cost as part of a 10 man infantry squad that can receive orders to reroll 1s and also has a gakload of lasgun shots and ablative wounds.

Taurox prime should go up 5 points or so.

Russ tanks should go down 5 points or so. Or go up to 13 wounds from 12. Or have all their weapons unaffected by moving. Or all 3.

Eradicator nova cannon should be S8, or 48", or both.
Exterminator autocannon should be heavy 6.
Vanquisher battle cannon should be heavy 2 or able to reroll hits.

Creed is a bit too many points for what he does. He should have some additional fluffy ability like adding +1 to your roll if you're trying to seize the initiative. And considering he costs more than two company commanders, he should be able to issue 4 orders up from 3, or give orders from 12" up from 6".

Conscripts unable to receive orders. Boom. Fixed.

Veterans should get doctrines back but they should cost 20 down from 30

Scions 10 points per model up from 9

Plasma gun up to 10 points per gun

Melta gun down to 10 points per gun

Autocannon down to 13 points from 15

Grenadier gauntlet down to 5 points from 10. Why am I paying more for a worse grenade launcher?

Vox cost 3 points down from 5 and now has infinite range

Devil dog melta cannon should be assault d3, not heavy d3

Bane wolf chem cannon down to 12 points from 15 points

Lord Commissar leadership and/or execution bubble up to 12" from 6". What's the point of a lord commissar? It's 20 points more than a regular commissar and does the exact same thing. Nobody's gonna use this guy.

Nork Deddog is not worth 80 points. Lower it down to 60

Valkyries down to 12 wounds from 14. Why the hell does a flying transport have a beefier profile than a main battle tank?

Vendettas need to be in the main codex. And they need BS3+ to justify their cost. They're not throwing out a barrage of missiles and bullets like Valkyries. They're trying to land pinpoint shots.

Deathstrike must go back to the previous edition's way of shooting. It should fire on a 6 or more, not an 8 or more. Right now it's almost impossible to fire it earlier than turn 4. By that point the game is already over.

ThePorcupine wrote:

Scions 10 points per model up from 9
Tempestus command squad 12 points per model up from 9

Unless you're going to give Scion Command Squads an additional bonus (not just extra special weapons), then having them cost more than normal Scions is just moronic.

You're already increasing their price and the price of plasma, and that's on top of the nerf that limited how many you can include. I suggest we at least try out those two before raising their cost even more.

Two things I'd do to vox casters;

One, up the 18" range to infinity range. It's a small change but it makes sense.

Two, give them a load of CP bonuses. For example, spend a CP, nominate one enemy unit within 12" of a model with a vox caster and call in an air strike, or an artillery strike, or just enact an order. So to get the best out of your stratagems, take vox casters.

Oh, and we should get the same auspex scan and flak missile stratagems the marines have. It just make sure sense, and the former could really come in handy for us. Maybe the orbital bombardment one too, but from an officer of the fleet rather than your warlord.

You're right. That's a bit much. Their points can stay at 10 scion-wide I think. That'll bump up the 4 plasma squad from 64 points currently up to 80 points. Significant, but not enough to make them unviable I think. I'd field that if I had the models.

Mix and Match IG tactics!

Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.

Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save

Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment

PIUS_2 wrote:
Mix and Match IG tactics!

Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.

Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save

Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment

I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish here. Surely picking a regiment should be a reward - not a punishment?