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Hi,
Longtime lurker, first time poster.

As many, I stopped playing during 4th edition and came back for some joy. However, in the few games I played all I seem to face are Astra Militarum and the same style lists. I can’t seem to beat it.
I have seen all of the discussions on Astra Militarum and some of the brokenness. Maybe the reason I see Astra Militarum is because they can be so solid now. The lists work mostly the same.

Brigade detachment 12 total CP sometimes with a spearhead detachment when the troops are bare.

1 Company commander, 1 commissar, 1 Astropath, 1 tech priest, Pask
4-5 troops, 1-2 conscripts
1 hellhound with double flamers, 2 sentinels, sometimes forgeworld flame tank
Plasma Russ for Pask and one other Plasma Russ or other Russ
Then all sorts of Heavy support goodness ranging from Basilisks, Heavy Mortars, Knights, or any other crazy destruction. Some of it is Forgeworld cheese while some it’s just plain destroy everything. I haven’t faced a super heavy tank yet thankfully.

The deployment is always the same. Heavy supports way in the back with bubble layers of infantry units preventing deep strike. Commisar to hold the line. Hell hounds running up and killing and possibly killing more when they blow up. Sometimes they also have Commisar Yarrick to give rerolls and stuff too for Heavy Support units. They shoot for two turns then move up in later turns to grab objectives.

I make sure there is some LOS blocking terrain. The last game we played that the first floor of buildings are not see through which worked pretty well. I saw that idea from a battle report. Regardless, it’s not just open view shooting season.

I have Raven Guard SM, Tau, and Eldar and over 4000 points of each. While I can’t spam any units, I have 1-3 of every unit. So far nothing has worked. While some games have been closer than others, they are always a loss. Some are really bad.

I can never get into assault with sustainable numbers. When I do, he will fall back and blow everything away. The stupid flame knight is an amazing counter assault unit that I have no answer for.

If I go shooty, I can get a tank or two, but his firepower outlasts mine. Techmarine will keep them going as well. We’ve played objective missions mostly.

I’ve looked at different people’s army lists, even the spam ones. I can’t find one that will seem to do the trick.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not totally blaming the list. While one guy I played was a tool who conveniently “forgot” rules, the others are smart. They deploy well. They know the important targets.

I’ve also looked on Youtube for battle reports where someone beat that kind of list but can’t find any. At least I can’t find any where the Astra Militarum player wasn’t stupid.

So help please

You need to go for the characters. How you do that is really up to you. Scouts with sniper rifles will do the job or jump pack troops that can move over his conscript line and assault the juicy stuff.

Without the Commissars the conscripts are all but useless and without orders from the Officers the rest of the army is medicore at best with actually hitting things. The IG are a really tough army right now but they have several weak points, which if your opponent is only taking a single commander and commissar you can easily exploit.

Get in melee. AM infantry are a 5+ just to hit in melee and die in gobs even to tactical marines. Many of the tanks can't do squat against units engaged in melee so they'll often have to just sit there once the infantry can't fall back any more.

I play Astra Militarium and fear assault marines. Artillery and long ranged shooting (greater than 48") also hurt because they can shoot the tanks, making the infantry wall pointless.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Get in melee. AM infantry are a 5+ just to hit in melee and die in gobs even to tactical marines. Many of the tanks can't do squat against units engaged in melee so they'll often have to just sit there once the infantry can't fall back any more.

I play Astra Militarium and fear assault marines. Artillery and long ranged shooting (greater than 48") also hurt because they can shoot the tanks, making the infantry wall pointless.

He already stated that this doesn't work because of the "walk out of assault" rule.

Has anyone tried running celestine and friends with their IG list? She seems like a bit of a beast

She is, but she's best a benefit when accompanied by seraphim, which adds to the cost.

 Melissia wrote:
She is, but she's best a benefit when accompanied by seraphim, which adds to the cost.

True that...I was looking at using her+1 seraphim as a beat stick for anything that survives the onslaught of shots.

I'm going to move in a slightly different direction, a point you kind of touched on; how much terrain is actually on the field, and how much is LOS blocking? I know that the general trend is to put too little terrain, which gives shoot heavy armies a bigger advantage. Not saying you're putting the wrong amount, just actually curious.

An outrider detachment of celestine with 15 seraphim is 315 points, 415 with both geminae, and gives you +1 CP and lets you stay Battle Forged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mortarion's Herald wrote:
I'm going to move in a slightly different direction, a point you kind of touched on; how much terrain is actually on the field, and how much is LOS blocking? I know that the general trend is to put too little terrain, which gives shoot heavy armies a bigger advantage. Not saying you're putting the wrong amount, just actually curious.

If you listen to the endless whining in the various "I hate conscripts!" threads, apparently the big trend is to have huge swaths of terrain completely blocked off from line of sight so the entirety of your deployment zone is unable to get LoS to six or more tanks at once, plus a commissar and commander while also being small enough that the conscripts can be in front of it and still benefit from orders and the commissar.

 necron99 wrote:
Has anyone tried running celestine and friends with their IG list? She seems like a bit of a beast

I use her in my IG list, but I usually don't bother with her friends or guards. She's there for her aura, as a counter-charge unit and just to be a fun centrepiece model.

this is why I wish Army Builder was working for 40K 8E...can I have Celestine in an HQ slot with the rest of my straight-IG army in the same detachment? This keyword stuff throws me a little. They both share Imperium as a faction keyword - is that enough to make them interchangeable within a list?

 necron99 wrote:
this is why I wish Army Builder was working for 40K 8E...can I have Celestine in an HQ slot with the rest of my straight-IG army in the same detachment? This keyword stuff throws me a little. They both share Imperium as a faction keyword - is that enough to make them interchangeable within a list?

Yep. That's completely legal.

IG is rough in 8th. IG w/ conscripts is even rougher. I'm asking around other threads, but so far, the best counter I can find is Harlequins. Even mech Eldar seems to fall short according to the Eldar folks, and I find mech Eldar terrifying.

1) Have you been playing maelstrom?

2) What units have you been using?

3) Have you been using af 4x6' battlefield?

Thanx for the responses.

So far I have only done Eternal War. Could I be competitive against the lists unless I do Maelstrom?

The table is 4x6 usually 2000 points.

They tend to hide their characters well. I have used scouts, and they will often put behind a vehicle or something else. With 4 wounds, I couldn't take on down on one turn and scouts become a priority target.

.I have tried assaulty in vehicles and assaulty w/jump packs with marines. They can stop one rhino and wound another, but even when I get in assault, stupid units fall back. Tanks are screened so they shoot at full devastation while only infantry may not shoot unless ordered. Even mass lasgun fire takes it's toll. I always take a las pred as they are just that good. I tired a Storm Raven one game. Got it 15" away one game for a charge turn two. He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

I've tried crisis tau and sit back and hold objectives tau. Missle Pod squad, fusion squads, and plasma squad. I can't deep strike anywhere near those tanks. With 5 units of 10 men and a squad of 20, he covers so much area. I also tried the longstrike spearhead with 2 hammerheads. That game had a ton of barrage weapons so my squads couldn't hold objectives. I got 3 of his tanks/heavies but wasn't enough to hold objectives. That was the closest.

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one seeing these lists?

Dawnvoyager wrote:
He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

That's pretty sick.

Dawnvoyager wrote:
Thanx for the responses.

So far I have only done Eternal War. Could I be competitive against the lists unless I do Maelstrom?

The table is 4x6 usually 2000 points.

They tend to hide their characters well. I have used scouts, and they will often put behind a vehicle or something else. With 4 wounds, I couldn't take on down on one turn and scouts become a priority target.

.I have tried assaulty in vehicles and assaulty w/jump packs with marines. They can stop one rhino and wound another, but even when I get in assault, stupid units fall back. Tanks are screened so they shoot at full devastation while only infantry may not shoot unless ordered. Even mass lasgun fire takes it's toll. I always take a las pred as they are just that good. I tired a Storm Raven one game. Got it 15" away one game for a charge turn two. He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

I've tried crisis tau and sit back and hold objectives tau. Missle Pod squad, fusion squads, and plasma squad. I can't deep strike anywhere near those tanks. With 5 units of 10 men and a squad of 20, he covers so much area. I also tried the longstrike spearhead with 2 hammerheads. That game had a ton of barrage weapons so my squads couldn't hold objectives. I got 3 of his tanks/heavies but wasn't enough to hold objectives. That was the closest.

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one seeing these lists?

No, you're not. But the pro-IG people will get on here and tell you that you didn't see the list that you actually played against. Or, you just brought all the wrong stuff.

Rocket Launcher can soften/eliminate the meat shield around tanks. Three landspeeders can launch 6D6 shots with S4, AP0, W1 at 48". Thats enough to punch a hole. Also, adding multimeltas to them helps against tanks. A unit of three can move 20". After removing the meat shield five company veterans with JP, and a captain with JP, deepstrike with combi meltas or combi plasmaguns, and take out the tanks. With plasmaguns you can be as far as 24". Supercharge and reroll 1s with the captains aura ability. If you are within 12" (which you usually are when you deepstrike) you can shoot twice, because plasmagun is rapid fire 1. You can do 12 hits, supercharged plasma has S8, AP-3 and W2. I usually manage 8-10 hits, 1-2 are saved with 6s, the remaining 12+ wounds are enough to kill a tank. Stormshields help keeping the CVs and the captain alive.

Martel is correct, basically. They're becoming the same way Eldar apologists used to be.

Honestly the only real shot is to fit 3 Vindicare Assassins in your list.

Even the assassin needs LoS. If you sink pts into three assassin, I'll just use Wvyerns to block the LoS and exploit the lack of anti-tank. Undercosted units make all kinds of sacrifices acceptable.

p5freak wrote:
Rocket Launcher can soften/eliminate the meat shield around tanks. Three landspeeders can launch 6D6 shots with S4, AP0, W1 at 48". Thats enough to punch a hole.

This is only killing about 6 GEQ per turn, it probably won't be enough.

p5freak wrote:
After removing the meat shield five company veterans with JP, and a captain with JP, deepstrike with combi meltas or combi plasmaguns, and take out the tanks. With plasmaguns you can be as far as 24". Supercharge and reroll 1s with the captains aura ability. If you are within 12" (which you usually are when you deepstrike) you can shoot twice, because plasmagun is rapid fire 1. You can do 12 hits, supercharged plasma has S8, AP-3 and W2. I usually manage 8-10 hits, 1-2 are saved with 6s, the remaining 12+ wounds are enough to kill a tank. Stormshields help keeping the CVs and the captain alive.

This is only an option for BA, regular SM can't put jump packs on their company veterans.

sossen wrote:

Dawnvoyager wrote:
He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

That's pretty sick.

That is a pretty standard tactic where I play. It takes around 18 boyz and a character on a warbike to block all disembarkation from a rhino. Then all passengers will be slain with the transport in the fight phase. It is the only way to kill both transport and passengers for a CC army I think.

pismakron wrote:

sossen wrote:

Dawnvoyager wrote:
He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

That's pretty sick.

That is a pretty standard tactic where I play. It takes around 18 boyz and a character on a warbike to block all disembarkation from a rhino. Then all passengers will be slain with the transport in the fight phase. It is the only way to kill both transport and passengers for a CC army I think.

I have been subjected to and done transport blocking before, but I would also assume that I was safe 15'' away from the closest models. Didn't think about this option for GEQ.

I don't play any of these armies...but here goes...Hmmm if you play Ravenguard can you try counter Gunline? set up Lascannons in terrain, Ravens have Chapter tactics right? That should force him to do some moving at least Add in some Scout teams with Sniper rirles and I think you'd at least have a game...

I'm thinking raven guard is going to be strong vs gunlines.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm thinking raven guard is going to be strong vs gunlines.

Sure sounds like it -1 to hit if more than or equal to 12" that hits AM where they live.

Dawnvoyager wrote:
Thanx for the responses.

So far I have only done Eternal War. Could I be competitive against the lists unless I do Maelstrom?

The table is 4x6 usually 2000 points.

They tend to hide their characters well. I have used scouts, and they will often put behind a vehicle or something else. With 4 wounds, I couldn't take on down on one turn and scouts become a priority target.

.I have tried assaulty in vehicles and assaulty w/jump packs with marines. They can stop one rhino and wound another, but even when I get in assault, stupid units fall back. Tanks are screened so they shoot at full devastation while only infantry may not shoot unless ordered. Even mass lasgun fire takes it's toll. I always take a las pred as they are just that good. I tired a Storm Raven one game. Got it 15" away one game for a charge turn two. He did MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and got the vehicle mostly surrounded so I couldn't get them out. Like I said, smart players.

I've tried crisis tau and sit back and hold objectives tau. Missle Pod squad, fusion squads, and plasma squad. I can't deep strike anywhere near those tanks. With 5 units of 10 men and a squad of 20, he covers so much area. I also tried the longstrike spearhead with 2 hammerheads. That game had a ton of barrage weapons so my squads couldn't hold objectives. I got 3 of his tanks/heavies but wasn't enough to hold objectives. That was the closest.

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one seeing these lists?

Oh no, IG is strong in this edition, maybe as strong as nids or space marines. And yes, play maelstrom, then they will have to move on their first turn.

Have you tried wraithguard in waveserpents? Or 6-7 tau commanders backed by Firewarriors and a fireblade or two?

How deep was his screen? And what spacing did he use between units and between individual models? Look for cracks. Even good players will slip up.

Have you tried all out assault with both rhinos and jump-packs? Rhino eats overwatch, passengers assault, in a wide formation, so you can pile in and tie up one or two extra units. That will cut down on his dakka and eat up his orders. The jump-packs should charge from the rear side of the screen, spreading out and piling into his tanks. That way it will be very difficult for him to fall back with all his units. I play Orks myself, so assault would be my natural inclination

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel is correct, basically. They're becoming the same way Eldar apologists used to be.

To be fair, the anti-IG crowd are far from reasonable themselves.

I've seen many IG players accept that, for example, Conscripts are a problem and offer solutions.

However, those solutions are constantly rejected by the anti-IG crowd in favour of solutions like 'we need to nerf every single aspect of conscripts and then increase their cost just to be sure', or 'we need to nerf conscripts in such a way that all other (non-OP) IG infantry gets screwed over even more', or 'let's make it that every Commissar is only allowed to fire his gun when he's pointing it up his own nose'.

The reason IG players are getting defensive is because many of the anti-IG crowd want to institute nerfs that would cripple the entire IG army (and they've already suffered through 2 editions of that).

If you and the other anti-IG crowd want a reasonable response then you have to be reasonable yourselves. Yet thus far the reasonable ones seem to be a tiny minority at best.

There's two tiers here. Some concede only that orders need to be removed. I'm more concerned with 50 3pt models that are immune to psychology.

Most offered solutions involve unrealistic scenarios, incorrect math, or hardcore tailoring or a combination thereof. This is the exact same thing eldar players tried in 7th, despite all data and math to the contrary.

 vipoid wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
Has anyone tried running celestine and friends with their IG list? She seems like a bit of a beast

I use her in my IG list, but I usually don't bother with her friends or guards. She's there for her aura, as a counter-charge unit and just to be a fun centrepiece model.

This. I dont have her with any other sisters but 1 regenerating Germ. She walks directly behind the wall of conscripts and waits to get a moment of weakness in my enemy to charge. She makes a great harassment/bully unit that you can play hyper aggressive or passive as a counter charge/heroic intervention unit (this is great since the beginning of the next turn she can attack again.

With how fast she is, she an close the gap somewhere pretty quick and engage. IF she dies, put her back behind the front line and wait again. She is AWESOME with guard.

As for the original post... What i struggle with the most so far is marines who make good use of cover/forests/LoS blocking/Ruins/etc. 2+ save 14 pt models is hard to remove and super efficient. OR people who know how to use their vehicles (rhinos are actually still pretty good my friends) to get in my face quickly, absorb overwatch and LoS block for the units inside! 10 assaulty marines jumping out of a rhino 3x and up close and personal are still rough to deal with. Dont forget that rhinos are modular terrain as well and bring their own LoS blocking (i just wish they stayed on the battlefield once dead, there was power in that).