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Good IG players will never give you a shot on the commissar. Because they know that's the only way to stop it.

Snipers are awful in general, unfortunately.

I haven't played against Rowboat yet, but I don't understand the problem with killing the stuff he's buffing and ignoring the stuff that has to move out of buff range to score points. The list has a tiny footprint and surrenders all board control.

SemperMortis wrote:

So those scary Conscript bubbles you are so worried about? your 5 snipers with all those rerolls will statistically kill a commissar every turn (hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 3s rerolling, VS 5+ save) then use all those Razborbacks to annihilate conscripts from afar, if you kill 25 they will statistically wipe themselves out with morale. and if 25 seems hard to do, a razorback with rerolls is killing about 9 or 10 a turn. (hits on 3s rerolling and wounds on 2s rerolling with -1 armor) So with 6 you can wipe out 2 blobs of 50 without a problem (That isn't even counting the Stormbolters) so boom you have wiped out bubblewrap turn 1 and killed about 300pts worth of chaff. OF course you don't even need to kill them because you have range advantage on them so you can just start slaying their vehicles, keep in mind you have 8 TL Lascannons that reroll wounds. Against a T7 vehicles you will likely kill 2 vehicles a turn just with the Annihilators, add in those Razorbacks if you want and you are decimating IG opponents. Yeah I would take girlyman over conscripts.

Not that I want to get back into the whole conscript debate, but the assumption that you'll be able to shoot at the commissar (and that there would be only one) is not a good one. But otherwise the math is good, the Razorbacks can kill 50-ish conscripts a turn.

Can you get that many razors in range and within buff range of Rowboat? Also, that's heavily list tailoring because you crippled yourself against something like Mechdar. And you are still spending 900+ points to clear out 150. IG is still ahead.

Martel732 wrote:
Can you get that many razors in range and within buff range of Rowboat?

Absolutely. Their movement is good and hes not far behind.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can you get that many razors in range and within buff range of Rowboat?

Absolutely.

I'd think they'd start blocking each other's LoS. Rowboat is buffing out to 6"? Or 9"?

LOS is measured from anywhere on the vehicle though, the G buffs at 6" I think. It's actually really easy to get if you clump them up. I played against a similar DA list with Azrael.

 Insectum7 wrote:
LOS is measured from anywhere on the vehicle though, the G buffs at 6" I think. It's actually really easy to get if you clump them up. I played against a similar DA list with Azrael.

I guess that's true. That will make for incredibly valuable "explodes" results And you are still spending 900 pts to kill 150. I wish I could force people to do that with BA.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
LOS is measured from anywhere on the vehicle though, the G buffs at 6" I think. It's actually really easy to get if you clump them up. I played against a similar DA list with Azrael.

I guess that's true. That will make for incredibly valuable "explodes" results And you are still spending 900 pts to kill 150. I wish I could force people to do that with BA.

6 Razors is about 700 points, but if they have better targets they could shoot something else instead. Conscripts ain't too good at shooting back. The point's-to-kill-points is not a great measure anyways, arguably the conscripts lasting for 3-4 turns instead of 1 or 2 could be completely damning in a strategic sense, depending on what else is happening.

You forgot Bobby G for the buffs. That's over half a 2K list to mow down 150. I lose more than 150 out of my BA lists to a stiff breeze now.

Martel732 wrote:
You forgot Bobby G for the buffs. That's over half a 2K list to mow down 150. I lose more than 150 out of my BA lists to a stiff breeze now.

You forgot points for commissars and commanders.

They aren't dying. The conscripts are.

Martel732 wrote:
They aren't dying. The conscripts are.

Guilliman isn't killing, the Razorbacks are. Be consistent. If the commissars weren't around, the six Razorbacks could wipe out 100 conscripts in a turn as SemperMortis suggested.

Anyways, this is going OT, so if you want to do the conscript thing again, you should probably take it to one of the threads specifically about conscripts.

Not really. People either accept it or they don't. They're both really good, and Rowboat should probably have gotten a price increase, but he doesn't turn off my entire army by standing there.

6 razors doesn't even come close to wiping 50 conscripts rerolling hits and wounds. You know why? Because they had to move to get into range.

That means they are -1 hit. Since they can't reroll the 3's the and half the shots miss in each of the rerolls you don't even average 50 hits. You only average 48. You wll average somewhere in the realm of 35-40 kills...or about 120 points worth of conscripts. I assure you vs an IG list - you are losing 3 razors a tun to their artillery.

Then... Shoot the artillery instead?

Comparing the most OP options is best left to the tournaments. Unfortunately Guilliman and conscripts are both Imperium choices so the tournament players might just bring both.

They're magic Razorbacks. Just like the magic conscripts that don't need to pay for a Commissar.

You should probably take it to the other thread if you want to keep chatting about it. I'll post no further about it here.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then... Shoot the artillery instead?

With your assault cannons that you are all-in on? Let me know how that works out for you. Also, half the time, you can't even see the artillery.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then... Shoot the artillery instead?

With your assault cannons that you are all-in on? Let me know how that works out for you. Also, half the time, you can't even see the artillery.

Or with the Predator Annihilators i put in that list which are in range for Girlyman rerolls. And again, 4 Lascannons hitting on 3s rerolling usually = 4 hits, 4 hits wounding on 3s rerolling usually = 4 wounds, but lets play devils advocate and give them 3 wounds. Against a Similar Tank that will almost be enough to kill 1 by itself (Averaging 10-11 damage total) If nothing else you are reducing its capabilities to their lowest setting prior to dying, throw in those razorbacks as mentioned and poof you have easily eliminated 2 enemy vehicles a turn. As for the Razorbacks moving forward and being -1 to hit. Ohh well? 4+ to hit = 6 hits +3 on the reroll so 9 hits, wounding on 2s rerolling = 9 wounds EACH. 9 x 6 = 54 wounds at -1 AP gives them a 6+ save = 48 dead conscripts. Ohh and they also put out 12 S4 shots so 9 hits there and 6 wounds against a 5+ = 4 more dead models. So, more then enough to kill an entire blob on turn 1 but again, you don't even need to because if you are worried about his artillery you can liquidate at least 2 of his vehicles/guns a turn with annihilators and supporting fire from a Razorback.

As for not being able to see the commissar, how so? Scouts get to infiltrate anywhere on the map more then 9in from the enemy so they should easily be able to get LOS shot at him, yeah they lose the rerolls but you get rid of that guy and the conscripts melt away.

And lastly, that isn't list tailoring, that is actually a TAC list. you have anti tank, you have anti infantry, you have anti flyer the only thing lacking is anti-psyker but your snipers can do work on them if they absolutely need to. This is just a solid all around list because girlyman just about doubles damage output for units in his bubble and with the way the rule is written he just needs to touch the unit not every model.

Oh boy, here we go again.
Marine players whining because the Imperial Guard got what the Marine players wanted them too and now deleting the Guard army is not as simple as it used to be.
Please stop, I just need to grab my popcorn.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Oh boy, here we go again.
Marine players whining because the Imperial Guard got what the Marine players wanted them too and now deleting the Guard army is not as simple as it used to be.
Please stop, I just need to grab my popcorn.

IG are going to suffer the same fate as Green tide did last edition. They look scary but they are ignorable. as soon as these Marine players figure that out and focus on your guns its going to be GG :(

SemperMortis wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Oh boy, here we go again.
Marine players whining because the Imperial Guard got what the Marine players wanted them too and now deleting the Guard army is not as simple as it used to be.
Please stop, I just need to grab my popcorn.

IG are going to suffer the same fate as Green tide did last edition. They look scary but they are ignorable. as soon as these Marine players figure that out and focus on your guns its going to be GG :(

But they can never see the guns. In fact, I could forgive Marine players for wondering if Manticore or Wyvern models existed; after all, they've never been seen by a single one in any game...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Oh boy, here we go again.
Marine players whining because the Imperial Guard got what the Marine players wanted them too and now deleting the Guard army is not as simple as it used to be.
Please stop, I just need to grab my popcorn.

IG are going to suffer the same fate as Green tide did last edition. They look scary but they are ignorable. as soon as these Marine players figure that out and focus on your guns its going to be GG :(

But they can never see the guns. In fact, I could forgive Marine players for wondering if Manticore or Wyvern models existed; after all, they've never been seen by a single one in any game...

Well you see, the table they're playing on its actually a Chaos-tainted, shape-shifting table.

Here's what it looks like during the Imperial Guard's turn:



Here's what it looks like during the Marines' turn:



So you see, their opponent never has any trouble at all moving and shooting how they please but the marines are perpetually foiled by dense urban terrain.

But that's why you shouldn't let Tzeentch set up your table.

I'm slightly amused Celestine is so high. I'm assuming it's mostly because of players running her as Imperium rather than Sisters?

 Melissia wrote:
FFS, just ignore Martel, he has the tactical sensibility of a dehydrated squid.

I'm slightly amused Celestine is so high. I'm assuming it's mostly because of players running her as Imperium rather than Sisters?

Celestine + Conscripts + Plasma Scions + Stormraven = High win probability

 wuestenfux wrote:
We have a trend:
1. Conscripts/Commissar
2. Guilliman
3. Stormraven
4. Brimstone Horrors
The rest not so much.

1. Imperium Girlyman
2. Imperium Conscripts
3. Imperium Stormraven
4. Chaos Brimstone Horrors <-- Getting massive nerfs
5. Imperium Scions
6. Imperium Celestine

Filthy Heretic, Trying to steal a Top 5 position!

I find it hilarious that people don't think Scions are more powerful than conscripts. Well, just goes to show people don't really know all that much about how Astra Militaritum works right now.

 Melissia wrote:
I find it hilarious that people don't think Scions are more powerful than conscripts. Well, just goes to show people don't really know all that much about how Astra Militaritum works right now.

Or you don't understand.

I can't agree with conscripts being on any of these lists, because it's not the conscripts that are strong it's the commissar that enables the conscripts to be strong. If conscripts were allowed to be vulnerable to morale, they would instantly go from being amazing to being merely decent.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I can't agree with conscripts being on any of these lists, because it's not the conscripts that are strong it's the commissar that enables the conscripts to be strong. If conscripts were allowed to be vulnerable to morale, they would instantly go from being amazing to being merely decent.

I think the combo is listed. Obviously commissars and conscripts are useless without each other.