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Fair, but that's not really a unit anymore. Its conscripts plus, SAR, why not make it conscripts + commissar + guilliman. Maybe it's just splitting hairs though.

Conscripts on their own are hilariously easy to crush, actually they're easier than most tanks are.

Which means, if you think commissar+conscripts are tough, the true power is the commissar. A cheap unit capable of protecting a mediocre unit from damage, thus causing it to become (in your view) omgwftbbqop.

 Melissia wrote:
Conscripts on their own are hilariously easy to crush, actually they're easier than most tanks are.

Which means, if you think commissar+conscripts are tough, the true power is the commissar. A cheap unit capable of protecting a mediocre unit from damage, thus causing it to become (in your view) omgwftbbqop.

Does it really matter whether the commissar or the conscripts are OP? Both of them would not make this list when separated from one another. When people say that conscripts are OP they are referring to the synergy with the implied commissar as well as the inherent strengths of the unit. You are going to bizarre lengths to justify the idea that conscripts aren't OP. It's ok to be wrong about the viability of a unit.

sossen wrote:
You are going to bizarre lengths to justify the idea that conscripts aren't OP.

Only because you're going to bizarre lengths to scream and rage and cry and moan that they're the most powerful unit ever devised.

Even combined, they're less powerful than scions.

I feel like I am a bit out of the loop here. Why are Scions OP?

Wheren't Scions Command Squads nerfed? Are they still OP?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I feel like I am a bit out of the loop here. Why are Scions OP?

Cheap deepstrike command squad spam with rapid fire ranged plasmaguns. They drop, they rerrol with overcharged plasma. You die.

Makes sense.

 Melissia wrote:
I find it hilarious that people don't think Scions are more powerful than conscripts. Well, just goes to show people don't really know all that much about how Astra Militaritum works right now.

I agree, scions command squads are by far the most OP unit in 8th edition with stormravens and guilliman. Conscripts are tough and certainly a competitive choice but they're basically a semi immortal unit that doesn't kill anything while all the other OP units can throw a huge amount of firepower, smite spam or they buff other shooty stuff like that silly primarch does. Low range S3 shots on BS5+ T3 1W and 5+ save models shouldn't be that scary, even with 200 bodies and buffs.

The reason why people consider conscripts+commissars more OP than scions is probably because almost every AM player has 150+ little soldiers while scions are still more uncommon as they're recent models and not very popular in 7th edition.

 Blackie wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I find it hilarious that people don't think Scions are more powerful than conscripts. Well, just goes to show people don't really know all that much about how Astra Militaritum works right now.

I agree, scions command squads are by far the most OP unit in 8th edition with stormravens and guilliman. Conscripts are tough and certainly a competitive choice but they're basically a semi immortal unit that doesn't kill anything while all the other OP units can throw a huge amount of firepower, smite spam or they buff other shooty stuff like that silly primarch does. Low range S3 shots on BS5+ T3 1W and 5+ save models shouldn't be that scary, even with 200 bodies and buffs.

The reason why people consider conscripts+commissars more OP than scions is probably because almost every AM player has 150+ little soldiers while scions are still more uncommon as they're recent models and not very popular in 7th edition.

Keep in mind, Orkz best unit right now is a model that is twice as expensive as those Conscripts but lacks ranged weapons, has worse armor but more S/T/Attacks

Scion Command Squads make some impressions when they are deployed and shoot. But as fast as they appear as fast they are vanished.
So they are quite a single shot unit.

And remember statistically they can´t one-shoot a rhino chassis. (8 shots at 3+ with reroll 1s = 7,11 hits; vs. T7 =4,74 wounds; the 6+ save leaving 3,95; with 2 damage each they do 7,9 damage)
The plasma pistol Prime would add 0,37 damage on overcharge to that. Still not enough.
The asscan-razorback would kill them (12 shots at 3+ = 8 hits; vs. T3 = 6,67 wounds; the 5+ save leaving 4,44)

Yes they are a use- and powerful unit but far from OP. Or at least only as OP as an asscan-razorback.

If they can drop in range of devastators/centurions they will get more out of it. If they can´t because of units screening the expensive units, they will be worse.


Conscripts simply benefit from their cost efficency when it comes to combos. 1 commissar/commander per 50 models and up to 100 if you keep a second unit close, though that sounds extreme. So the "fearless"-upgrade costs is 0,31-0,62 points per conscript. The order a further 0,3 (company commander per 2 units) - 0,4 points (platoon commander). Effective points per conscript 3,61-4,02.
Dropping the max size from 50 to 20 would reduce that efficeny a lot. Fearless 0,775-1,55 and the order 0,75-1. Effective points per conscript 4,525-5,55. That´s a point increase of 25%-38%.

If that can´t cure the conscript-"problem" then i guess we have a serious problem.

Well quick math tells me that even with overcharging the plasma, 2 Scion command squads wont remove a Tac squad (but maybe I am wrong there), which makes sense because they're cheaper than said squad, but eeeeeeh. I dunno, don't see. Maybe because I don't run plasma command squads.

I think if plasma goes up by a few points, Scions and Scion Command Squads will be fine.

Let's be honest here - cheap plasma is the only problem with them. No one is losing to armies of deep-striking Scions with Grenade Launchers or Flamers.

A single 4 men squad can cause almost 8 W to a T7 vehicle and you consider it not impressive? Scions command squads can be spammed since they are very cheap for what they do.

Yes, they're a sort of suicide unit but if you bring a significant number of them you can melt the most powerful enemies units. Many vehicles or walkers can be almost invalidated even if they have some wounds left. One razorback can be screwed by a single scions command squad, imagine 3-4 or them and basically every SM vehicle down in turn 1. Now the conscripts can really do some damage with their S3 shooting.

Conscripts can be avoided quite easily instead, since they lack range and speed. They can only bubble wrap vehicles (which you may want to shoot at anyway with your anti tank if you're not a close combat oriented army) and sit on objectives. But they won't kill anything valuable in the entire game, maybe other cheap hordes.

By the way the twin assault cannon razorback is another OP unit I always take 3 of them with my SWs.

Do you factor in the cost of the Prime when you say they are very cheap?

 Melissia wrote:
I find it hilarious that people don't think Scions are more powerful than conscripts. Well, just goes to show people don't really know all that much about how Astra Militaritum works right now.

This so much. Scions are so good right now, they can snatch losses into draw, or worse, outright win the game in a single turn.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
You are going to bizarre lengths to justify the idea that conscripts aren't OP.

Only because you're going to bizarre lengths to scream and rage and cry and moan that they're the most powerful unit ever devised.

Even combined, they're less powerful than scions.

I never said that it is the most powerful unit ever, and I never said that scions are less powerful. I voted for both.

And to be honest they fixed Scion Command Squads by having them require a Prime. Reducing the cost efficency from 8 points per rapid firing plasma shot to 12,11 (inc. a plasma pistol shot from the Prime) points.
Making the shots 50% more expensive. The order to reroll 1s will reduce the expense to a certain point.

But let´s face it, with the update v1.1 GW has reacted to the use of SCS. And i´m convinced they were aware of their armament and would have changed something about it.
Concering the GL and Flamer, not every weapon is as useful for every unit. But that fits. I see the weapons choice connected to the task of the unit.
For me Scions are more (only one use; i must admit) scalpels than brute hammers. For the task of fighting Terminators i choose them and would give them plasma, vs. vehicles it´s melta. Vs. the Mob of 30 Orks i wouldn´t think of wasting them against them. There are simply other units better suited to fight masses.

And yes the Flamers lack 4" range and the Grenade Launcher 1 point of strength.


If that was meant towards me. I do say they are good, but no they are not OP. But remember the Razorback is about the same points, so in extreme there is one razorback for each SCS+Prime. And yes you can cripple them but your SCS will be gone afterwards. So it´s about a trade of 1 on 1.
And btw i didn´t find the twin assault cannon OP. It was way about time to increase the firepower by changing twin-linked from a reroll to real shots and add shots to the assault cannon. The firepower (and esp. the assault cannon) suffered so much from 2nd to 3rd edition it was really laughable. But that is another story.

Now that anything can damage everything (even if it is only on a 6) cheap low tier units are more viable than before. Not sure on whom i shall place my bet when a cybot has to fight against ork boyz for the same costs. Guess the orks would get it, esp. in CC.


You are right. Incl. the prime, with 9 shots they can kill a max. of 9 marines. So they killed 8 points more than they costs but only at the best possible result.

Firefox1 wrote:


And yes you can cripple them but your SCS will be gone afterwards. So it´s about a trade of 1 on 1.

The point with that 1-1 trade is that a unit that is meant to be a sucide squad kills a unit that shouldn't be dead in turn 1 in the opponent's mind. With several scions command squads the AM can cripple the most powerful threats only sacrifying units that have that precise role. Scions kill the vehicles and the anti infantry AM weapons kill the crew inside. Without plasma scions that anti infantry shooting could be wasted. So this is not really a trade of 1 and 1.

And all the anti-infantry firepower taken by the scions saves several wounds to the semi-immortal super scary blob of conscripts which can become a real problem if it's left untouched by turn 2. They kill some valuable units and, in the subsequent turn, soak the firepower that can cripple one of more units that you want to be effective at full numbers. Unless that AM list faces a green tide ork army with only boyz and characters that can't be targeted by scions, or something similar, that tactics is way OP.

Plasma guns should cost 13 points, like the SM ones. And scions should probably be limited to a single command squad and two regular squads unless you go full scions.

 Blackie wrote:
Plasma guns should cost 13 points, like the SM ones.

I think 10pts would be more reasonable. Scions shouldn't be paying SM weapon prices when they're significantly less durable than said SMs.

Also, I'd argue that 7pts is about right for regular guardsmen (given that they're even less durable and only have BS4+).

 vipoid wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Plasma guns should cost 13 points, like the SM ones.

I think 10pts would be more reasonable. Scions shouldn't be paying SM weapon prices when they're significantly less durable than said SMs.

Also, I'd argue that 7pts is about right for regular guardsmen (given that they're even less durable and only have BS4+).

They can deep strike in significant numbers though, and with a blob of buffed conscripts plus their tanks their lists are way more durable than SM ones overall. An ork rokkit is 12 points and it's fired at BS 5+ by 6+ save models. How can plasma guns be cheaper (almost half the price) than orks' rokkits??

Plasma is not too cheap, not for everyone. I wouldn't consider it too cheap on my RW biker...it's still a hard decision between the special weapons. I'm not going to risk over charging it (especially black knights) without a reroll.
The problem is the mechanic of overcharge. You die no matter if you are a cheap guardsman, scion or if you are Sammael himself. Personally I would have preferred if it were simply a mortal wound on a to hit roll less than your armour save. 2 wound models are not auto killed, 4+ and 5+ save models are really at risk of dying and 3+ save marines have a decent chance of dying too.

 Blackie wrote:
They can deep strike in significant numbers though, and with a blob of buffed conscripts plus their tanks their lists are way more durable than SM ones overall.

You can't compare the durability of a model to the durability of a list and then use the latter to dictate the price of the former.

If you want to discuss the individual elements of that list, then I'm happy to do that (most people seem to consider Conscripts too durable for their points, for example). However, you can't base the durability of a particular model on the durability of a list that includes not only many other models but many types of model.

 Blackie wrote:
An ork rokkit is 12 points and it's fired at BS 5+ by 6+ save models. How can plasma guns be cheaper (almost half the price) than orks' rokkits??

Better range? Damage 3? S8 without killing the user?

Honestly though, I'm not sure I'd consider anything in the Ork codex to be a good reference point. Isn't it chock-full of overcosted stuff?

 bullyboy wrote:
The problem is the mechanic of overcharge. You die no matter if you are a cheap guardsman, scion or if you are Sammael himself. Personally I would have preferred if it were simply a mortal wound on a to hit roll less than your armour save. 2 wound models are not auto killed, 4+ and 5+ save models are really at risk of dying and 3+ save marines have a decent chance of dying too.

I don't think it should hurt you on a to-hit roll less than your armour save. However, I can definitely get behind it being a mortal wound rather than a dead model. Especially when it comes to plasma weapons on vehicles.

 vipoid wrote:
You can't compare the durability of a model to the durability of a list and then use the latter to dictate the price of the former.

Likewise though, do we really want models with half-cost plasma running about when they're mildly less durable than a standard marine? 3+ save isn't the be-all when AP is being hurled about, especially that very same plasma, and everyone dies equally on a 1 (or more often too).

Let's say I have a model that dies to a warm summer's breeze. It has no save whatsoever, can't move at all, has a Toughness of 1, and isn't a character. But I can pay 5 pts to give it a Lascannon.

Oh and this is before considering that this edition we get to choose which model in a unit dies. So let me just bring my mostly plasma squad with a few throwaway extra wounds.

 Arkaine wrote:

Likewise though, do we really want models with half-cost plasma running about when they're mildly less durable than a standard marine? 3+ save isn't the be-all when AP is being hurled about, especially that very same plasma, and everyone dies equally on a 1 (or more often too).

Bear in mind that it's not just the lack of the 3+ save - it's also that they're T3.

Regardless, I already suggested an increase in the price of plasma for Scions from 7pts to 10pts. I just don't think they should be paying full Marine prices.

 Arkaine wrote:

Let's say I have a model that dies to a warm summer's breeze. It has no save whatsoever, can't move at all, has a Toughness of 1, and isn't a character. But I can pay 5 pts to give it a Lascannon.

Well, I imagine that it would depend on the model's initial cost and its BS.

If it costs 5pts and has BS 3+ then yeah, that'll be too good. If the model costs 50pts and has BS6+ . . . not so much.

 Arkaine wrote:

Oh and this is before considering that this edition we get to choose which model in a unit dies. So let me just bring my mostly plasma squad with a few throwaway extra wounds.

You say that but there are only two Scion units and one of them has 0 excess models. Excess models are also of no use if your plasmagun rolls a 1.

That said, did you not have excess wounds in prior editions? You had to micromanage their positions a bit more, sure, but those excess wounds were still there.

Firefox1 wrote:

Spoiler:

Bobthehero wrote:Well quick math tells me that even with overcharging the plasma, 2 Scion command squads wont remove a Tac squad (but maybe I am wrong there), which makes sense because they're cheaper than said squad, but eeeeeeh. I dunno, don't see. Maybe because I don't run plasma command squads.

You are right. Incl. the prime, with 9 shots they can kill a max. of 9 marines. So they killed 8 points more than they costs but only at the best possible result.

In fact I forgot to include the cost of the Primes myself in this, it makes the two squads more expensive than the Tac Marines, oh well.

 vipoid wrote:


You can't compare the durability of a model to the durability of a list and then use the latter to dictate the price of the former.

If you want to discuss the individual elements of that list, then I'm happy to do that (most people seem to consider Conscripts too durable for their points, for example). However, you can't base the durability of a particular model on the durability of a list that includes not only many other models but many types of model.

I disagree about that since I don't care about a single model or unit, I only care about the list overall. It's all about balance, I can accept an extremely strong deep striking suicide unit in an army that doesn't have other powerful tools, I can't accept it if overall the army becomes almost invincile. And plasma scions are the most contributing factor to the OPness of AM.

SM plasma equivalent can't deep strike and can't be spammed in the same numbers, in terms of effectiveness scions' plasma guns should cost more than SM ones. Just like orks' burnas, since they can be equipped in large units those flamers are only D3 damage. Why's that? Because you can't have a unit of 15 marines with flamers. For the same reason scions' plasmas should cost more than SM ones or lesser effective in terms of S, AP and D. Maybe assault 1 instead of rapid fire 1 for 7 points?

 vipoid wrote:


Better range? Damage 3? S8 without killing the user?

Better range? Since you can deep strike plasma guns have better range. Damage 3 is nice but even with 20 tankbustas you won't get the same damage as the equivalent in terms of points of scions command squads. Killing the users? The standard profile of plasma guns doesn't kill you anymore, against T5-6 S7-8 are the same, and if you have access to re-rolls of 1s you can even overcharge safely. But suicide squads can even afford to lose some models overcharging, they're going to die next turn anyway, losing one model in a unit of four dudes that is dead next turn is irrelevant.


Scions command squads will never fire against tac squads unless the AM player doesn't how his/her army works, what's the reason of this specific and unrealistic example?

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree about that since I don't care about a single model or unit, I only care about the list overall.

Fine, but then you still have to look at each element in the list separately (save for combinations like Conscripts and Commissars). You can't just point to a vehicle and say 'look, this vehicle is durable and it's in the same list as infantry, therefore those infantry are as durable as this vehicle'.

 Blackie wrote:
And plasma scions are the most contributing factor to the OPness of AM.

As I've said before, I think increasing in the cost of plasmaguns for scions from 7pts to 10pts would be enough. At the very least, I'd suggest that is tried before basically doubling the cost of plasma (which seems like a severe overreaction to me).

 Blackie wrote:

SM plasma equivalent can't deep strike and can't be spammed in the same numbers, in terms of effectiveness scions' plasma guns should cost more than SM ones.

So what you really want is for Scions to be unusable. Gotcha.

 Blackie wrote:
Just like orks' burnas, since they can be equipped in large units those flamers are only D3 damage. Why's that? Because you can't have a unit of 15 marines with flamers. For the same reason scions' plasmas should cost more than SM ones or lesser effective in terms of S, AP and D. Maybe assault 1 instead of rapid fire 1 for 7 points?

Forgive me but how often are Burnas taken in 8th?

If the answer is 'they're not' or 'barely ever', then I'd suggest that perhaps we shouldn't be modelling other units on them.

 Blackie wrote:

Better range? Since you can deep strike plasma guns have better range. Damage 3 is nice but even with 20 tankbustas you won't get the same damage as the equivalent in terms of points of scions command squads. Killing the users? The standard profile of plasma guns doesn't kill you anymore, against T5-6 S7-8 are the same, and if you have access to re-rolls of 1s you can even overcharge. And suicide squads can even afford to lose some models risking the overcharge, they're going to die next turn anyway, losing one model in a unit of four dudes that is dead next turn is irrelevant.

You seem desperate to use the weakest codex as a point of comparison. Why? Are you that desperate that IG be nerfed into the ground for the third edition running?

 Arkaine wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You can't compare the durability of a model to the durability of a list and then use the latter to dictate the price of the former.

Likewise though, do we really want models with half-cost plasma running about when they're mildly less durable than a standard marine? 3+ save isn't the be-all when AP is being hurled about, especially that very same plasma, and everyone dies equally on a 1 (or more often too).

Let's say I have a model that dies to a warm summer's breeze. It has no save whatsoever, can't move at all, has a Toughness of 1, and isn't a character. But I can pay 5 pts to give it a Lascannon.

Oh and this is before considering that this edition we get to choose which model in a unit dies. So let me just bring my mostly plasma squad with a few throwaway extra wounds.

Throw away guns after hotshot lasguns too...which are ap-2. LOL.

It's essentially a half priced sterngard unit that can deep-strike for free.

They'll fire a single shot, at str 3, its basically a throwaway gun.

I voted for Harliquen troops but in reality the most busted thing is the troop master. It's like 74 points (with caress and fusion) and has a ridicules stat line and buff for it's points.

Hit's on 2's with a fusion pistol that he can run shoot and charge with after an 8" move. He's got a 4++ and 5 wounds. Hits at str 5 with his weapon with 5 attacks ap-2.

gives out a 6" reroll wounds in CC buff.

For each Guiliman you can take 4 of these.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They'll fire a single shot, at str 3, its basically a throwaway gun.

It's not rapid fire?