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The fight phase core rule reads: "To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1''of that unit, or within 1'' of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1'' of that enemy unit"
The FAQ says: Q: What does within 1'' mean? A: It means any distance up to and including 1''
Assuming that a unit uses 1'' bases (i.e. Poxwalkers) this seams to imply that up to 4 ranks are able to attack in close combat.
1st rank = within 1'' of enemy unit
2nd rank = exactly 1'' away = within 1' of enemy unit
3rd rank = within 1'' of friendly model that is within 1'' of enemy
4th rank = exactly 1'' from friendly model that is within 1'' of enemy

Am I missing something or is this how it should be played?
(Maybe it's just the core rule sentence saying "This represents the unit fighting in two ranks." that's throwing me off..)

There are no official "ranks" in 40k, it's just based on distance.
Basically, you work out how many models are within 1" of the enemy, then work out how many models are within 1" of those models. Thats how many can fight. With 25mm bases I think it's 3 in a line that can reach? Let me draw it out and work it out.

Edit: It seems like it's 4 with 25mm bases, since 1" is 25.4mm, so if they are all in base to base, the first 2 are within 1", then the next 2 are within 1" of the 2nd guy.

It's going to be hard to see without opening it in an editor and zooming in, since it's literally .4mm difference, but hopefully this helps. https://i.imgur.com/DXKQmKD.png

If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Thank you.
So RAW is 4.
Not what I wanted to hear, but I guess I'll have to give it to my Tyranid opponent than.

 drone9 wrote:
Thank you.
So RAW is 4.
Not what I wanted to hear, but I guess I'll have to give it to my Tyranid opponent than.

It's only 4 if you are literally in full base to base contact. In more realistic situations it'll be 2 or 3 at most.

I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

edwardmyst wrote:
I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

That's correct. For any base size larger than 1" (anything bigger than 25mm) you're effectively getting 2 ranks. Model 'A' that is within 1" of the enemy and Model 'B' that is within 1" of Model 'A'.

TY Yakface, nice quick answer. (still love that avatar...but now I'm thirsty)

Bases are round, if your models are staggered you can get 4 ranks of 25mm bases without much effort.

You can do 3 ranks of 40mm bases if the models in each rank are spaced out some, but that defeats the purpose of getting the maximum amount of models into fight.

blaktoof wrote:
Bases are round, if your models are staggered you can get 4 ranks of 25mm bases without much effort.

You can do 3 ranks of 40mm bases if the models in each rank are spaced out some, but that defeats the purpose of getting the maximum amount of models into fight.

I had to laugh at the visual thought of this. I understand the rules and know it wouldn't work, but I had to laugh at the thought.

If you've got enough 40mm based models in a unit to lap around an enemy model's base more than three times, you deserve to get to swing with all four ranks.

Just imagine surrounding a 40mm based model with 40mm based models (Remember that larger enemy bases would need even more!).

The first ring is 6, the second is 12, the third is 18, the fourth is 24. That's sixty 40mm based models. (Who has this many 40mm models in a list?) (Really though who actually runs even thirty-six 40mm models in a list?)

So with "All" of your models surrounding your enemy's "One" model, the foot print of 61 40mm based models, perfectly arranged, is the SIZE OF A DINNER PLATE!

Hello Apocalyptic Barrage!

Just say'n!

 yakface wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

That's correct. For any base size larger than 1" (anything bigger than 25mm) you're effectively getting 2 ranks. Model 'A' that is within 1" of the enemy and Model 'B' that is within 1" of Model 'A'.

Except the bases are rounds and you can tuck a rank closer than the actual diameter of the base. You can indeed fit 4 ranks in a combat

Fragile wrote:

 yakface wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

That's correct. For any base size larger than 1" (anything bigger than 25mm) you're effectively getting 2 ranks. Model 'A' that is within 1" of the enemy and Model 'B' that is within 1" of Model 'A'.

Except the bases are rounds and you can tuck a rank closer than the actual diameter of the base. You can indeed fit 4 ranks in a combat

25mm = 0.98 inches but a base it's a trapezoid and its actually 30mm (1.18mm) at the bottom, imo you can get 3 ranks max with a very spread out 1st one at which point I'm not sure you'll gain in total model number regardless.

Edit: Got confused about base sizes and how they are sold, thought the 25mm was the Tactical Squad ones but they are actually sold as 32mm which is accurate, so yes the 25mm like the Scouts ones are less than 1". And according to my cheapo ruler they're all 1mm shorter.

 Gendo wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 yakface wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

That's correct. For any base size larger than 1" (anything bigger than 25mm) you're effectively getting 2 ranks. Model 'A' that is within 1" of the enemy and Model 'B' that is within 1" of Model 'A'.

Except the bases are rounds and you can tuck a rank closer than the actual diameter of the base. You can indeed fit 4 ranks in a combat

25mm = 0.98 inches but a base it's a trapezoid and its actually 30mm (1.18mm) at the bottom, imo you can get 3 ranks max with a very spread out 1st one at which point I'm not sure you'll gain in total model number regardless.

Consider hexagonal packing on an infinite plane (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html). This is the densest circle packing possible. The circles in rank 1 are all touching two circles in rank 2, which are all touching two circles in rank 3. The center of each rank 1 circle will be D*sqrt(3) away from the center of a rank 3 circle, and their edges will be separated by a distance D*(sqrt(3) - 1). Therefore rank 3 is within 1" of rank 1 as long as D (the diameter of a base) is less than 1.366".

Of course, if rank 3 is within 1" of rank 1, then rank 5 is within 1" of rank 3. Therefore 4 densely packed ranks can fight against an enemy unit which is organized in a btb line, as long as the uniform bases involved are less than 1.366" in diameter.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Gendo wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 yakface wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
I agree with the above, but would like to maybe get a clarify I am doing it right.
In reality, the size of the closest unit (the one touching) in the above question does not matter, correct? The rule says within 1" of an enemy model, OR within 1" of a model in its own unit that is within 1" of base." Ok, so if I charge a unit with something on large bases, say Ogryns or such on 40MM bases. The first touches the enemy unit. The rest only need to be within 1" of the first Ogrynn's 40MM base, correct? Not within 2" of the enemy model?
(I have played it this way, as it is a great work-around the many different base sizes involved now)

That's correct. For any base size larger than 1" (anything bigger than 25mm) you're effectively getting 2 ranks. Model 'A' that is within 1" of the enemy and Model 'B' that is within 1" of Model 'A'.

Except the bases are rounds and you can tuck a rank closer than the actual diameter of the base. You can indeed fit 4 ranks in a combat

25mm = 0.98 inches but a base it's a trapezoid and its actually 30mm (1.18mm) at the bottom, imo you can get 3 ranks max with a very spread out 1st one at which point I'm not sure you'll gain in total model number regardless.

Consider hexagonal packing on an infinite plane (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html). This is the densest circle packing possible. The circles in rank 1 are all touching two circles in rank 2, which are all touching two circles in rank 3. The center of each rank 1 circle will be D*sqrt(3) away from the center of a rank 3 circle, and their edges will be separated by a distance D*(sqrt(3) - 1). Therefore rank 3 is within 1" of rank 1 as long as D (the diameter of a base) is less than 1.366".

Of course, if rank 3 is within 1" of rank 1, then rank 5 is within 1" of rank 3. Therefore 4 densely packed ranks can fight against an enemy unit which is organized in a btb line, as long as the uniform bases involved are less than 1.366" in diameter.

Hmm, that's not the exact math you're looking for given the examples, to allow more than 2 consecutive ranks within 1" of the first you need to spread it so much that it doesn't make sense, let alone 4 in total (given a base larger than 1").

 Gendo wrote:

Hmm, that's not the exact math you're looking for given the examples, to allow more than 2 consecutive ranks within 1" of the first you need to spread it so much that it doesn't make sense, let alone 4 in total (given a base larger than 1").

Would you mind being clearer about where you think I go wrong? You can fight if you're within 1" of an enemy model or within 1" of a model in your unit which is within 1" of an enemy model. If the enemy squad is lined up in btb, then you can fit one rank of models in btb with them. Your second rank of models will still be within 1" of enemy models as long as bases are less than 1.366" across. Then you can fit a third rank in btb with your second rank. And then a fourth rank in btb with the third rank, within 1" of your second rank. This is literally the densest packing of circles possible, so you're certainly not having to spread out so much that it doesn't make sense.

The second rank is within 1". The third rank is less than 1" wide, meaning the 4th rank, if staggered, is within 1" of a model that is 1" away and can fight. Feel free to actually arrange models and try it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Dahell....??
My life is a lie D:

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Dahell....??
My life is a lie D:

Turns out I might have been a little wrong here and that 25mm refers to the top section, not the base as a whole, since it flanges a little to the bottom.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Dahell....??
My life is a lie D:

Turns out I might have been a little wrong here and that 25mm refers to the top section, not the base as a whole, since it flanges a little to the bottom.

Yeah. It's a general misconception with GW bases. For some of the bases, the 'width' refers to the top surface and not the large footprint. 25mm bases are wider than 25mm. I can't remember the specifics, but I remember drilling holes in a display board and being shocked to find that 60mm bases are closer to 63mm wide. For some other bases, the width refers to the footprint. I think the 120mm bases are 120mm on the bottom and not the top. It's weirdly inconsistent.

 Kriswall wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Dahell....??
My life is a lie D:

Turns out I might have been a little wrong here and that 25mm refers to the top section, not the base as a whole, since it flanges a little to the bottom.

Yeah. It's a general misconception with GW bases. For some of the bases, the 'width' refers to the top surface and not the large footprint. 25mm bases are wider than 25mm. I can't remember the specifics, but I remember drilling holes in a display board and being shocked to find that 60mm bases are closer to 63mm wide. For some other bases, the width refers to the footprint. I think the 120mm bases are 120mm on the bottom and not the top. It's weirdly inconsistent.

 Gendo wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
If were splitting hairs, 25mm is more then 1"

So that would make for two ranks.

1 inch is 25.4mm by definition, so a 25mm base is a tiny fraction of a sliver less than 1".

Dahell....??
My life is a lie D:

Turns out I might have been a little wrong here and that 25mm refers to the top section, not the base as a whole, since it flanges a little to the bottom.

Yeah. It's a general misconception with GW bases. For some of the bases, the 'width' refers to the top surface and not the large footprint. 25mm bases are wider than 25mm. I can't remember the specifics, but I remember drilling holes in a display board and being shocked to find that 60mm bases are closer to 63mm wide. For some other bases, the width refers to the footprint. I think the 120mm bases are 120mm on the bottom and not the top. It's weirdly inconsistent.

As I've said above: 25mm = 0.98 inches but a base it's a trapezoid and its actually 30mm (1.18mm) at the bottom, the only bases that are less than 1" are for example the scouts ones.

It's not a trapezoid. It's a truncated cone.

My point was more than some are the 'correct' size at the top of the base and some are the 'correct' size at the bottom of the base. 25mm bases are 25mm wide at the top and wider at the bottom. I THINK the 40mm or 50mm bases are narrower at the top. 60mm is wider at the bottom. It's very inconsistent.

Know what's pretty consistent? Using a bloody ruler when your fight phase comes around.

 Arkaine wrote:
Know what's pretty consistent? Using a bloody ruler when your fight phase comes around.

Crazy talk. Rulers? You'll never make Tech-Adept with that sort of talk.

Uhh, all this talk about GW bases being 25mm on top is bullgak. Go measure one. ~22mm on top, 25mm on bottom.

Doesn't even matter. First rank is all in a line base to base. Second rank is inbetween 2 models from the first rank. which puts them closer than the 25mm base would imply. 3rd rank lines up with the first rank. being within 1" of a model within 1" and 4th rank lines up with the second , again within 1" of a model within 1".

1---1----1----1----1
--2----2----2----2--
3---3----3----3----3
--4----4----4----4---

 Lance845 wrote:
Doesn't even matter. First rank is all in a line base to base. Second rank is inbetween 2 models from the first rank. which puts them closer than the 25mm base would imply. 3rd rank lines up with the first rank. being within 1" of a model within 1" and 4th rank lines up with the second , again within 1" of a model within 1".

1---1----1----1----1
--2----2----2----2--
3---3----3----3----3
--4----4----4----4---

Pretty much this. Lots of people talk as though the bases are square. They're not. With staggered placement, four ranks of 25mm bases can pretty easily get into combat. Assuming enough charge range to position as you like, you should rarely, if ever, have a model on a 25mm base who can't attack. As base sizes increase, you're more and more likely to have models who can't attack.

The rules literally state "This represents the unit fighting in two ranks" during the choose target steps while it describes who is eligible to fight.

While sure you can bust out your digital measuring calipers in an attempt to prove to your opponent that 4 ranks can fit within the confines of the 1" rule, you're just being a cheese ball at that point. The rules very clearly indicate that 2 ranks of models are intended to participate.

SmoothAB wrote:
The rules literally state "This represents the unit fighting in two ranks" during the choose target steps while it describes who is eligible to fight.

While sure you can bust out your digital measuring calipers in an attempt to prove to your opponent that 4 ranks can fit within the confines of the 1" rule, you're just being a cheese ball at that point. The rules very clearly indicate that 2 ranks of models are intended to participate.

Where can I find the definition of what constitutes 'a unit fighting in two ranks' in the game? From page 182 of the main rulebook:

... the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks.

There's the definition. So no matter how many models out you manage to get, if you meet the requirements listed above you meet the definition of '...fighting in two ranks.'