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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:00:42
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Been Around the Block
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I was in a game against the Sisters of battle and had the following happen. A Sisters squad was locked in combat and on their turn they used an act of faith to move out of it, the move again and shoot my units. I didn't think anything of it until i followed up on the rules after the match.
At the beginning of their turn, a Sisters of Battle squad is locked in combat. They use an act of faith Hand of the Emperor: "The unit can immediately move as if it were the Movement phase." to move out of combat.
First question: Does this movement count as falling back?
The unit continues it's turn and moves normally during the Movement phase.
In the shooting phase the rules state: "You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn..."
Second question: During the shooting phase, can the unit shoot?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:08:57
Subject: Re:Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My interpretation hinges on the fall back rules. Using Fall back is the only way you may move out of CC. To quote "Units starting the movement phase within 1" of an enemy can either remain stationary, or fall back." The act of faith says the unit may move as if it were the movement phase, so they must use fall back.
The second part of fall back, a unit may not shoot if it fell back this turn (not Phase, but turn) means in any turn a unit uses a fall back move they may not shoot, unless they have a rule that over-rides this.
So...they could fall back, then move in their movement phase, but not shoot that turn.
I play Sister's of Battle, and this has been the way I play these rules. I guess someone could argue that the act of faith takes place outside of the turn the fall back rule says, but I disagree as it clearly says At the beginning of your turn. Intentional or not, it was played incorrectly.
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Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:16:27
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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Yeah, it lets you use the movement phase rules. The only way to move if you're within 1" of an enemy is by falling back, which means you can't shoot afterwards unless you can FLY.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:55:34
Subject: Re:Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Sorry to hijack this thread a bit (and yes, I agree with the above 2 posters that using an AoF to move 'as if it were the movement phase' means you'd have to fall back to get more than 1" away from the enemy), but can anyone tell me what the point of the 'Hand of the Emperor' act of faith is supposed to be?
Since acts of faith are used 'at the start of each of your turns' (which is also the start of your movement phase), what does using this act faith get you? Is it supposed to be a double-move (you're still allowed to move normally even after making the 'hand of the emperor' move)? If so, the rules certainly don't indicate that.
As it stands, it seems like its an ability that does nothing. It lets you move a unit 'as if it were the movement phase', but it ALREADY IS the movement phase. Or am I missing some obvious use for it that I'm just not seeing?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 22:56:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:59:23
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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I think the intention in any case is to allow a double move, since it triggers at the start of the turn, before you have selected any units to move, you resolve the act of faith, then you can select the unit to move as per the regular turn sequence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 23:02:10
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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BaconCatBug wrote:I think the intention in any case is to allow a double move, since it triggers at the start of the turn, before you have selected any units to move, you resolve the act of faith, then you can select the unit to move as per the regular turn sequence.
Except that unit has now already been moved in the movement phase (as there is no 'pre-movement phase' at the start of a turn). Seems like this needs to go on the FAQ list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 23:05:58
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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yakface wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:I think the intention in any case is to allow a double move, since it triggers at the start of the turn, before you have selected any units to move, you resolve the act of faith, then you can select the unit to move as per the regular turn sequence.
Except that unit has now already been moved in the movement phase (as there is no 'pre-movement phase' at the start of a turn). Seems like this needs to go on the FAQ list.
True. The rule is actually incredibly broad in it's statement saying "No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 23:22:23
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
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Rustican wrote:I was in a game against the Sisters of battle and had the following happen. A Sisters squad was locked in combat and on their turn they used an act of faith to move out of it, the move again and shoot my units. I didn't think anything of it until i followed up on the rules after the match.
At the beginning of their turn, a Sisters of Battle squad is locked in combat. They use an act of faith Hand of the Emperor: "The unit can immediately move as if it were the Movement phase." to move out of combat.
First question: Does this movement count as falling back?
Yes.
Rustican wrote:The unit continues it's turn and moves normally during the Movement phase.
In the shooting phase the rules state: "You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn..."
Second question: During the shooting phase, can the unit shoot?
No it cannot shoot, unless it has a special rule allowing it do so. Such as the FLY keyword. Was the unit in question Seraphim (with the jump packs) or Celestine?
yakface wrote:
Sorry to hijack this thread a bit (and yes, I agree with the above 2 posters that using an AoF to move 'as if it were the movement phase' means you'd have to fall back to get more than 1" away from the enemy), but can anyone tell me what the point of the 'Hand of the Emperor' act of faith is supposed to be?
Since acts of faith are used 'at the start of each of your turns' (which is also the start of your movement phase), what does using this act faith get you? Is it supposed to be a double-move (you're still allowed to move normally even after making the 'hand of the emperor' move)? If so, the rules certainly don't indicate that.
As it stands, it seems like its an ability that does nothing. It lets you move a unit 'as if it were the movement phase', but it ALREADY IS the movement phase. Or am I missing some obvious use for it that I'm just not seeing?
Acts of Faith take place at "the start of your turn" which is an established period of time during a player's turn that exists before you actually begin the movement phase. Hence the phrase "as if it were the movement phase". So when the actual movement phase rolls around, you are free to move again as you haven't already moved this movement phase.
Although it's worth noting that if you advance during a Hand of the Emperor move, the wording of the advance rule means says that you can't shoot or charge in a turn that you advanced, so you cannot (barring special exceptions).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 23:54:23
Subject: Re:Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Been Around the Block
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yakface wrote:
Sorry to hijack this thread a bit (and yes, I agree with the above 2 posters that using an AoF to move 'as if it were the movement phase' means you'd have to fall back to get more than 1" away from the enemy), but can anyone tell me what the point of the 'Hand of the Emperor' act of faith is supposed to be?
Since acts of faith are used 'at the start of each of your turns' (which is also the start of your movement phase), what does using this act faith get you? Is it supposed to be a double-move (you're still allowed to move normally even after making the 'hand of the emperor' move)? If so, the rules certainly don't indicate that.
As it stands, it seems like its an ability that does nothing. It lets you move a unit 'as if it were the movement phase', but it ALREADY IS the movement phase. Or am I missing some obvious use for it that I'm just not seeing?
Since the sisters are a flamer/melta heavy army, being able to advance twice to get into flamer and half melta range seems pretty useful.
It wasn't a jump pack squad. I think it was a Dominion squad with heavy flamers. I assaulted them with a rhino to tie them up but they used the act of faith to move and then flamered my tac squad off the board.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 23:58:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 00:31:42
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Rubenite wrote:Acts of Faith take place at "the start of your turn" which is an established period of time during a player's turn that exists before you actually begin the movement phase. Hence the phrase "as if it were the movement phase". So when the actual movement phase rolls around, you are free to move again as you haven't already moved this movement phase.
Although it's worth noting that if you advance during a Hand of the Emperor move, the wording of the advance rule means says that you can't shoot or charge in a turn that you advanced, so you cannot (barring special exceptions).
There is no established time before the start of the movement phase. The start of the turn is the start of the movement phase.
Perhaps you're thinking of 7th edition?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 00:51:59
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
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I think that there is - I did some digging after reading your comment to make sure before I posted.
Firstly, how do we know when the movement phase begins? The core rules on pg 177 tell us to 'Start your Movement Phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...'. So you could argue that the movement phase doesn't begin till you pick and move a unit.
Secondly, we look at certain abilities that establish specific periods of time in the game. Celestine is a great example. Her Saintly Blessings say 'At the start of any of your turns...' as we are discussing. But her Healing Tears ability says 'At the beginning of your movement phase'. Why would these be different?
Then we have the abilities-formerly-known-as-deep-strike which happen 'At the end of any of your movement phases'. We know that units cannot move after arriving in this manner, so we know that 'at the end of your movement phase' is an established period of time different to the movement phase.
Lastly, there are several other things that happen 'at the start of your turn' but before the movement phase. Tactical Objective generation for Maelstrom missions, for example. Similary, objectives are achieved at the end of your turn - if this is the moral phase (by your reckoning) why not say so? Why differentiate?
If you look at the Matched Play Mission rules on page 215 - the 'Strategic Discipline' rule says "This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'..." which further establishes these as periods of time where it is possible for actions to be taken outside of a phase. (And this also suggests that in the case of Acts of Faith, you could use multiple command rerolls whilst resolving them).
Interested to know your thoughts
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 00:53:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 01:11:08
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Rubenite wrote:I think that there is - I did some digging after reading your comment to make sure before I posted.
Firstly, how do we know when the movement phase begins? The core rules on pg 177 tell us to 'Start your Movement Phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...'. So you could argue that the movement phase doesn't begin till you pick and move a unit.
Secondly, we look at certain abilities that establish specific periods of time in the game. Celestine is a great example. Her Saintly Blessings say 'At the start of any of your turns...' as we are discussing. But her Healing Tears ability says 'At the beginning of your movement phase'. Why would these be different?
Then we have the abilities-formerly-known-as-deep-strike which happen 'At the end of any of your movement phases'. We know that units cannot move after arriving in this manner, so we know that 'at the end of your movement phase' is an established period of time different to the movement phase.
Lastly, there are several other things that happen 'at the start of your turn' but before the movement phase. Tactical Objective generation for Maelstrom missions, for example. Similary, objectives are achieved at the end of your turn - if this is the moral phase (by your reckoning) why not say so? Why differentiate?
If you look at the Matched Play Mission rules on page 215 - the 'Strategic Discipline' rule says "This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'..." which further establishes these as periods of time where it is possible for actions to be taken outside of a phase. (And this also suggests that in the case of Acts of Faith, you could use multiple command rerolls whilst resolving them).
Interested to know your thoughts 
Pg 176 lays out what comprises a battle round (and a turn). There are only 6 phases. The start of the turn is the same thing as the start of the movement phase. The end of the turn is the same thing as the end of the morale phase.
As to why GW sometimes uses different teminology in different cases? Because they employ different writers and they often copy-and-paste rules from previous editions and only change what really needs to be changed. The difference between saying the 'end of the turn' and the 'end of the morale phase' is generally meaningless, so they don't bother being precise.
I would love for what you're saying to be true, and in previous editions they did actually go out of their way to kind of carve out an imaginary space at the beginning of the turn (via FAQ answers), but that's not the rules we have now, and as such they need to make rules like the Emperor's Hand clear as to how they actually are supposed to work.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 01:11:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 07:45:58
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Id say its abundandly clear how it is supposed to work. Do AoFs, then move units as normal. The rules might not be airtight but come on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 09:28:24
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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nekooni wrote:Id say its abundandly clear how it is supposed to work. Do AoFs, then move units as normal. The rules might not be airtight but come on. IMHO you have to be all or nothing when it comes to following the rules, no matter how silly they may be. I think it's silly that moving plasma at night causes it to overheat 50% of the time, but that's what the rules say. If you handwave one thing, where is the line when you stop?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 10:46:45
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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BaconCatBug wrote:nekooni wrote:Id say its abundandly clear how it is supposed to work. Do AoFs, then move units as normal. The rules might not be airtight but come on. IMHO you have to be all or nothing when it comes to following the rules, no matter how silly they may be. I think it's silly that moving plasma at night causes it to overheat 50% of the time, but that's what the rules say. If you handwave one thing, where is the line when you stop?
It's got nothing to do with it being silly or not. The guideline I use is "what did the author intend for it to do", and it's blindingly obvious that in this instance they intended for the unit to be able to move twice in one turn. Or are you proposing that GW intended for one of multiple Acts of Faith to literally do nothing? That's obviously not their intend, as they wouldn't have added the Act of Faith in the first place then.
It's not hand-waving, it's making the rules work as intended. They clearly stated their intend when it comes to dice roll modifiers. I'm fully able to differentiate between a house rule to fix the "Moving plasma at night" situation and a situation like the one at hand, and I don't think going "all or nothing" is a very good approach - at least not for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 10:51:20
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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We don't know what their intention is without an FAQ changing the rules. Until then, you follow the rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 11:11:53
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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BaconCatBug wrote:We don't know what their intention is without an FAQ changing the rules. Until then, you follow the rules.
Then tell me what, if not "move twice", they might have intended.
Occam's Razor is a pretty good tool. So far we have "it does something: move twice a turn" and "it doesn't do anything". The later is far less likely to be their intent.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/02 11:16:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 22:02:42
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Newbie Black Templar Neophyte
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The way I see it it's clear that it means move twice, since it hasn't been already faq'd means it isn't a huge wording mistake.
I take AoF as it's own thing to be resolved at the start of the turn and before anything else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 22:25:17
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Rubenite wrote:I think that there is - I did some digging after reading your comment to make sure before I posted.
Firstly, how do we know when the movement phase begins? The core rules on pg 177 tell us to 'Start your Movement Phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...'. So you could argue that the movement phase doesn't begin till you pick and move a unit.
Secondly, we look at certain abilities that establish specific periods of time in the game. Celestine is a great example. Her Saintly Blessings say 'At the start of any of your turns...' as we are discussing. But her Healing Tears ability says 'At the beginning of your movement phase'. Why would these be different?
Then we have the abilities-formerly-known-as-deep-strike which happen 'At the end of any of your movement phases'. We know that units cannot move after arriving in this manner, so we know that 'at the end of your movement phase' is an established period of time different to the movement phase.
Lastly, there are several other things that happen 'at the start of your turn' but before the movement phase. Tactical Objective generation for Maelstrom missions, for example. Similary, objectives are achieved at the end of your turn - if this is the moral phase (by your reckoning) why not say so? Why differentiate?
If you look at the Matched Play Mission rules on page 215 - the 'Strategic Discipline' rule says "This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'..." which further establishes these as periods of time where it is possible for actions to be taken outside of a phase. (And this also suggests that in the case of Acts of Faith, you could use multiple command rerolls whilst resolving them).
Interested to know your thoughts 
I agree. The Tactical Objectives rules define that things happen at start or end of turn. They don't mention phases, or they'd say "at the start of the Moevement Phase" or "at the end of the Morale Phase". Inference is that 'start of turn' is a moment before the Movement Phase, and 'end of turn' is a moment after the Morale Phase. That they don't define this isn't problematic, Otherwise the Tactical Objectives rules simply don't function. It's simply a colloquial way of saying "first action is this" and "last action is this".
By this logic Acts of Faith work before Movement Phase too, but don't excuse units from the restrictions of special moves like Fall Back and Advance. By Yakface's logic, the movement AoF grants you the ability to Move in the Movement Phase. Yeah, I'm sorry but no... that's not right.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 23:17:57
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Norn Queen
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JohnnyHell wrote:By this logic Acts of Faith work before Movement Phase too, but don't excuse units from the restrictions of special moves like Fall Back and Advance. By Yakface's logic, the movement AoF grants you the ability to Move in the Movement Phase. Yeah, I'm sorry but no... that's not right.
Yeah, I'm sorry but yes... that is right. It might offend your sensibilities but to play it any other way is cheating, the same way as saying "My Conscripts are Toughness 20" is cheating.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 23:48:24
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Calling people "cheaters" for trying to find a way to make a poorly-written rule work as intended is uncalled for.
You're never gonna play these guys, and if you happen to you can dice off what happens for your game. Otherwise, just let them try and work out a RAI. That's what YMDC is for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 02:36:37
Subject: Re:Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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If they don't move with Hand of the Emperor before the movement phase, why would they be allowed to shoot before the shooting phase or fight in close combat before the fight phase (whatever its called) for the different acts of faith? Determining how many AoF a Sisters army gets is the fiest thing they do each turn, then they spend them. Then they begin their regular turn by moving their units. None of the rules say you get to do any of those actions twice, they just say that you get to act in one of those ways while spending your AoF charges. If they don't get to double move with Hand of the Emperor then how would any of them but the heal AoF work at all?
To the OP, I agree, Hand of the Emperor would allow them to disengage, if they aren't Seraphim (who have fly) they wouldn't be able to shoot that turn. But they could move or advance, and certainly open the unit they were fighting to a lot of Sisters shooting while making their get away.
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A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 02:49:19
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Acts of Faith are resolved at the start of the turn before naything else. They give you an "extra" phase before anything else happens in the turn. This allows them to shoot, move, or fight before the turn begins proper. As it takes place before the movement phase, it's not a part of the movement phase. So the point of Hand of the Emperor is to move twice. That said, if you use the move to Fall Back, you still can't shoot afterwards because fall back lists "turn" not "phase." I have to disagree with Yakface's interpretation that the Movement Phase automatically starts at the beginning of the turn. If that was true, none of the Acts of Faith would make sense, because you'd be taking a phase within a phase-- and yet it specifies at the start of the turn, not the start of the movement phase. It's true that usually nothing precedes the movement phase, but that doesn't mean it automatically starts. This is not cheating, BCB. This is the Rules As Written. In fact, I'd actually accuse you of cheating for trying to interpret it differently in order to screw with a Sisters player.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 02:50:46
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 06:29:11
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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BaconCatBug wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:By this logic Acts of Faith work before Movement Phase too, but don't excuse units from the restrictions of special moves like Fall Back and Advance. By Yakface's logic, the movement AoF grants you the ability to Move in the Movement Phase. Yeah, I'm sorry but no... that's not right.
Yeah, I'm sorry but yes... that is right. It might offend your sensibilities but to play it any other way is cheating, the same way as saying "My Conscripts are Toughness 20" is cheating.
Instead of insulting others you could try and answer my last question to you. What is it that you think the author had in mind when writing that act of faith?
And its quite funny that youre unable to differenciate between this and T20 conscripts. Sad, but funny.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 06:29:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 09:37:04
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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BaconCatBug wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:By this logic Acts of Faith work before Movement Phase too, but don't excuse units from the restrictions of special moves like Fall Back and Advance. By Yakface's logic, the movement AoF grants you the ability to Move in the Movement Phase. Yeah, I'm sorry but no... that's not right.
Yeah, I'm sorry but yes... that is right. It might offend your sensibilities but to play it any other way is cheating, the same way as saying "My Conscripts are Toughness 20" is cheating.
False equivalence is false. Not remotely a comparable situation. One is misrepresenting a statistic, one is assessing when actions happen. Please don't be this disingenuous. You bring up interesting rules things sometimes but belittling those who disagree with you isn't an endearing trait.
The consensus in this thread seems to be with the interpretation I prefer, anyway. So thanks for your input but I believe you are wrong.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 10:06:15
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote:I have to disagree with Yakface's interpretation that the Movement Phase automatically starts at the beginning of the turn. If that was true, none of the Acts of Faith would make sense, because you'd be taking a phase within a phase-- and yet it specifies at the start of the turn, not the start of the movement phase. It's true that usually nothing precedes the movement phase, but that doesn't mean it automatically starts.
This is not cheating, BCB. This is the Rules As Written. In fact, I'd actually accuse you of cheating for trying to interpret it differently in order to screw with a Sisters player.
All the other acts of faith are worded perfectly fine. They're exactly the same as many other abilities (like Ynnari Soulburst for example) that let models do something 'as if it were' a different phase than the one they're currently in. And yes, the fact that the rulebook lists only 6 phases that comprises a turn means that RAW there is nothing in a turn before the movement phase and that the start of the turn is the same thing as the start of the movement phase.
Its important to be able to look at the rules and recognize when they are improperly written even when most players can recognize how the rule 'should' work that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will recognize that, and if some players are confused by what the rule means, then GW needs to write it properly.
If they want there to be a pre-movement phase 'start of the turn' mini-phase (as they did in 7th edition), then they simply need to clarify that via a FAQ, because if that's the case it definitely would matter for resolving the 'sequencing' rules between 'start of of the turn' and 'start of the movement phase' abilities. But those kind of things don't get put into the FAQ unless people recognize that GW has screwed up and written the rules ambiguously.
I am not arguing that GW intended for the Hand of the Emperor to do nothing. However, it RAW absolutely does do nothing currently, and that's why it should be FAQ'd. Although I would categorize it as a low priority, because most players will simply assume that it should work the way GW likely intended it to work.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 10:07:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 10:13:37
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Dakka Veteran
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yakface wrote: Melissia wrote:I have to disagree with Yakface's interpretation that the Movement Phase automatically starts at the beginning of the turn. If that was true, none of the Acts of Faith would make sense, because you'd be taking a phase within a phase-- and yet it specifies at the start of the turn, not the start of the movement phase. It's true that usually nothing precedes the movement phase, but that doesn't mean it automatically starts.
This is not cheating, BCB. This is the Rules As Written. In fact, I'd actually accuse you of cheating for trying to interpret it differently in order to screw with a Sisters player.
All the other acts of faith are worded perfectly fine. They're exactly the same as many other abilities (like Ynnari Soulburst for example) that let models do something 'as if it were' a different phase than the one they're currently in. And yes, the fact that the rulebook lists only 6 phases that comprises a turn means that RAW there is nothing in a turn before the movement phase and that the start of the turn is the same thing as the start of the movement phase.
Its important to be able to look at the rules and recognize when they are improperly written even when most players can recognize how the rule 'should' work that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will recognize that, and if some players are confused by what the rule means, then GW needs to write it properly.
If they want there to be a pre-movement phase 'start of the turn' mini-phase (as they did in 7th edition), then they simply need to clarify that via a FAQ, because if that's the case it definitely would matter for resolving the 'sequencing' rules between 'start of of the turn' and 'start of the movement phase' abilities. But those kind of things don't get put into the FAQ unless people recognize that GW has screwed up and written the rules ambiguously.
I am not arguing that GW intended for the Hand of the Emperor to do nothing. However, it RAW absolutely does do nothing currently, and that's why it should be FAQ'd. Although I would categorize it as a low priority, because most players will simply assume that it should work the way GW likely intended it to work.
There is no phase before the movement phase, but that doesn't mean there is nothing before the movement phase.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 10:19:45
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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terry wrote:There is no phase before the movement phase, but that doesn't mean there is nothing before the movement phase.
Yes, that's precisely what it means.
When you create a game, you start with a blank slate. There is nothing until you write it to be so. GW have written exactly what comprises a turn in the rulebook. There are only 6 phases and that's what makes up a turn. There is nothing else, as currently written, that makes up a turn, and therefore there is nothing else to a turn.
They could easily create one with any rule, by saying: 'at the start of the turn, before the movement phase...' or by coming out with a FAQ saying that things which happen at the 'start of the turn' occur before the movement phase, but until they do either of those two things, you are absolutely incorrect. The start of the movement phase is the start of the turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 10:22:35
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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So when do you do Tactical Objectives? Do they need an FAQ? People cope fine without an FAQ saying they happen after the Morale Phase. This is no different IMO.
Edit: "at the start of the turn, before the Movement Phase" is tautologous and unnecessary wording, probably exactly why they skipped it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 10:23:36
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 10:24:34
Subject: Sisters Act of Faith: Hand of the Emperor
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote:So when do you do Tactical Objectives? Do they need an FAQ? People cope fine without an FAQ saying they happen after the Morale Phase. This is no different IMO.
You check at the end of the morale phase, which is the end of the turn.
99% of the time the fact that the end of the turn is the same as the end of the morale phase and the beginning of the turn being the same as the beginning of the movement phase have ZERO impact on rules.
Its only when GW screws up like they did with Hand of the Emperor that its a problem.
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