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People *should* be afraid of bezerkers, not laughing at them which is where we've been for over a decade now.

 auticus wrote:
People *should* be afraid of bezerkers, not laughing at them which is where we've been for over a decade now.

Agreed.

Berzerkers finally play like the rabid, chain weapon wielding, blood god worshipping, super-human, needles in the brain gladiator nutters that they are.

World Eaters are looking really amazing. They seem to have great rules all around.

I'm curious why people focus on using the stratagem on zerkers. They aren't the best choice tbh, you only use the stratagem once per turn (and at 3 cp, 2ish times a game). Zerkers are good because they already fight twice, not because they put out the most damage per fight. Chosen or terminators would be better choices, unless you expect to get a full unit of 20 foot slogging zerkers into melee. Shame nothing benefits spawn, or they'd work wonderfully.

Honestly this stratagem is not even that needed on World Eaters units. We already get the extra attack and if you don't kill what you're fighting that first time you fight what the heck is wrong with you.

Is there anything stopping you from playing a shooty WE army that is also pretty good at assaulting?

Mathematically, the trait helps 1 attack models a lot more than it helps 3 attack models (100% increase vs 33% increase), which seems worth considering.

Good thing the stratagem is for Khorne marked units, not specifically World Eaters.

Honestly, I'm liking Renegades more for my Khornish hordes. Advancing and charging is pretty huge, especially for things like bikes, and I feel like the WE +1 attack is sort of redundant. They're plenty killy enough, the challenge has always been getting them into the fight.

 McGibs wrote:
Good thing the stratagem is for Khorne marked units, not specifically World Eaters.

Honestly, I'm liking Renegades more for my Khornish hordes. Advancing and charging is pretty huge, especially for things like bikes, and I feel like the WE +1 attack is sort of redundant. They're plenty killy enough, the challenge has always been getting them into the fight.

Very true, which is why I'm wondering if a shooty WE list with the trait as more of a backup ability could be worth thinking about.

I think EC's tactic is much better suited towards melee deterrence with a shooty army than WE's. The fact they get the double shoot slaanesh stratagem is another point.

As for renegades vs WE, it comes down to foot slogging vs deep striking and mechanized assault. If you want to run your army up the field, renegades are probably better, but any other style of assault benefits WE more. Even walking them up the field you must consider the benefits of getting into combat at most a turn sooner (and sometimes no sooner) vs making more impact when you do get there. Extra attacks on the charge may make up for a handful of lost models.

So I think WE are still the better choice overall. Just possibly not the best choice for 20 man zerker squads charging up the field.

 Arkaine wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:
There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.

What's better? Spending 3 CP on rerolls in the next turn or two? Or denying your opponent the use of half of his army by annihilating it right now? Those extra attacks can make the difference between a unit or tank surviving and not surviving, or eliminate even more squads that were just planning on shooting you later.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.

Even easier using buffs. Assuming we're still looking at the same example from above...

225 attacks that hit on 3s, rerolling due to Dark Apostle, is an average of 200 hits.
Conscripts being T3 means 75% of those attacks are wounding on 2s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 146 wounds out of 150 S6 attacks.
The other 25% are weaker so wound on 3s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 44 wounds out of 50 S5 attacks.
So 146 of those wounds carry a -1 AP meaning Conscripts save on a 6+, or about 122 dead conscripts.
The other 44 wounds have no AP meaning the Conscripts save on a 5+, or about 29 dead conscripts.

So you're looking at 151 dead conscripts and the Exalted Champion + Dark Apostle haven't even swung yet.


DISCLAIMER FOR THE EXTREMELY ANGSTY TROLLS IN THE ROOM: All of this assumes every Berserker survives until the end of the Fight phase. Which is doable if the conscript are fighting someone else or suck at rolling. With each berserker casualty the number of kills will decrease.

It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.

Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.

However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:

1) It can't fit inside a transport.
2) It can't fit inside cover.
3) It can't hide behind terrain.
4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last.
5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.

In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.

Alternatively, you're going to foot-slog 18 berzerkers up the board with an apostle backing them up. In the three turns they spend running you'll be lucky if 6 of them make it to charge range, because they're a big, scary unit of berzerkers and they're going to be taking a LOT of enemy fire. When you get there, you'll be thankful for the 3CP stratagem because you're going to need it in order to wipe out the conscripts that are bubble-wrapping your opponent's line, preventing your jump-pack chaos lord and raptors from deepstriking in and summoning your bloodletters into the middle of your opponent's army. And then, you're going to make your charge, only to die to overwatch because that's how this seems to always work...

Spartan Assault Tank.

Khyribdis Assault Claw is my transport of choice.

 Arandmoor wrote:
It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.

Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.

However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:

1) It can't fit inside a transport.
2) It can't fit inside cover.
3) It can't hide behind terrain.
4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last.
5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.

In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.

At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.

Wait...whut?

At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.

Or people could see it coming a mile away and deploy intelligently.

 techsoldaten wrote:
At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.

Let us count the issues: first off, anything in the drop pod must deploy 9 in from enemy models. So still a 9 inch charge.

Second, half your army has to be on the board, in terms of units. This is 1250+ points and 6 units. So this is pretty much only 2000+ pointgames, and even there you risk going second and getting tabled.

Third, this isn't even that dangerous. Zerkers can chew through enemies, but not to the point they won't have a response. Depending on deployment you may not even touch most of their expensive stuff.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.

Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.

However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:

1) It can't fit inside a transport.
2) It can't fit inside cover.
3) It can't hide behind terrain.
4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last.
5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.

In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.

At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.

"Sorry. I don't play against Forgeworld"

I'm not sure where the 3" charge is coming from? The dread claw works like a drop pod, the models leaving the transport need to be more than 9" away from enemy models.

Magic?

 koooaei wrote:
Magic?

That'd be the answer for one squad of berzerkers, but you can't cast warptime more than once, let alone four times.

 ross-128 wrote:
That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.

It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!

You can't charge units out of 12" not much is going to be out of range