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 ZergSmasher wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Considering the OP seems to be willing to do anything to get a decent game in, while the other guy came up with a sub-par list, looked like he was gonna lose, then ragequit, I do have to agree that the OP's opponent needs an attitude adjustment. The game is for the enjoyment of both parties, and the OP seems to be willing to bend over backwards to accommodate his opponent, while it doesn't seem like the same is happening in reverse.

On a tangent though, to the OP, I also dislike special characters, but not because they're powerful. I just find it incredibly weird that the leader of the opposing army is waltzing into some random skirmish. Like Calgar and Guilliman probably should be coordinating a system-wide crusade, not putting down some random eldar shenanigans on some backwater planet. I am probably gonna get bludgeoned for saying this, but I think special characters should be restricted to Narrative games and not have points for matched play for that reason, since they're suppose to be narrative. Plus, it gives a chance for people to make unique characters for their own armies from the generic characters. I have seen a dozen or so Guillimans, Calgars and Catos, but nary a single nameless Ultramarines Captain in a long time (amusingly though I see a bunch of unnamed Techmarines, but that's only because the Master of the Forge and the Master of the Apothecarion are the only Ultramarines to not have models). So this may be his dislike for characters. I could be completely wrong and he's just a scrub for disliking the unique ability of characters, which, to be fair, can be unbalanced at times simply because you can't replicate it otherwise.

I can understand your reasoning for objecting to special characters for sure, although I don't entirely agree with it, but that's a discussion for another time. My opponent's attitude comes from the fact that I'm getting to reroll so many misses. He was just disgusted by how good my aura abilities were (and let's face it, Azrael gets perhaps the best aura abilities other than Roboute Guilliman himself), and unhappy that Thousand Sons don't really have anything like that. I'm not even sure that's true. I recommended maybe using Daemon Princes for their reroll abilities, but I'm not sure he even heard me. I'd offer to work with him specifically on how to make a better list, but I'm not sure he'd even be willing to hear me out. I'm at least going to try though, and if it still doesn't work out I'll just have to stop playing him.

Abaddon has reroll abilities too right? I'm sure he could have taken that character and had rerolls too.

You definitely weren't TFG but you didn't exactly make any considerations for him being a newbie with a newbie list.
I don't know if you knew his status before you started the game but changing from characters to Generic HQs probably would have been a nice move.
Still.
His hissy fit prevents me from taking his side in any way, shape or form. Passion bubbles be damned - Table-flippers are scum and rage-quitters are only marginally better.
He should have shown some class and politely conceeded.

Abaddon is excluse to the Black Legion.

Thousand Sons only gets Daemon Princes for to-hit reroll's, and that's only for rolls of 1 not all misses.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

I can understand your reasoning for objecting to special characters for sure, although I don't entirely agree with it, but that's a discussion for another time. My opponent's attitude comes from the fact that I'm getting to reroll so many misses. He was just disgusted by how good my aura abilities were (and let's face it, Azrael gets perhaps the best aura abilities other than Roboute Guilliman himself), and unhappy that Thousand Sons don't really have anything like that. I'm not even sure that's true. I recommended maybe using Daemon Princes for their reroll abilities, but I'm not sure he even heard me. I'd offer to work with him specifically on how to make a better list, but I'm not sure he'd even be willing to hear me out. I'm at least going to try though, and if it still doesn't work out I'll just have to stop playing him.

Uh huh.
All about him listening to you, right?
OK.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Abaddon is excluse to the Black Legion.

Thousand Sons only gets Daemon Princes for to-hit reroll's, and that's only for rolls of 1 not all misses.

Magnus also allows reroll of 1s to Hit within 9" of him.

Also they have access to Prescience (+1 to Hit), a big unit of Scarab Occult hitting on a 2+ with rerolls is pretty good.

 jeff white wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

I can understand your reasoning for objecting to special characters for sure, although I don't entirely agree with it, but that's a discussion for another time. My opponent's attitude comes from the fact that I'm getting to reroll so many misses. He was just disgusted by how good my aura abilities were (and let's face it, Azrael gets perhaps the best aura abilities other than Roboute Guilliman himself), and unhappy that Thousand Sons don't really have anything like that. I'm not even sure that's true. I recommended maybe using Daemon Princes for their reroll abilities, but I'm not sure he even heard me. I'd offer to work with him specifically on how to make a better list, but I'm not sure he'd even be willing to hear me out. I'm at least going to try though, and if it still doesn't work out I'll just have to stop playing him.

Uh huh.
All about him listening to you, right?
OK.

Maybe he should've given him a friendly ribbing.

I think his list is just as cheesy as yours with 10 deepstriking terminators + sorcerer. I'm also not sure i'd call either list super competitive or optimized.

I don't like the term WAAC because to me you should always try to win every game within the confines of the rules of that game. WAAC to me would mean some kind of cheating or abusive behavior, and anyone who does that needs to be called on it and eventually shunned if they don't change their behavior. But this game was just him being a poor loser.

Some things I think every player should do every time they play a matched play pick up style game (where the goal is presumably to win and get better at the game while having a fun social interaction with another person, rather than tell a story, or learn the game, as there are other game modes for that which are perfectly valid but do require some prior to the game conversation) are:

1. Bring the best list you can. I'm not saying it can't be fun, or has to be the same list every time, but you should want it to win, and think it can win. One of the cool things about 8th edition is that you can make a lot of units work fairly well in some kind of list or another, so i am not sure there are many situations where you can't make a fun list with models you want to use that also stands a chance of winning. To me, a large part of the hobby is writing lists and theory crafting what can make X unit i spent careful time modeling and painting shine in a particular list. I also think it is important to bring a good army for your opponent's sake. I would go so far as to say i think it is impolite not to bring a list you think you can win with. 40K games take a long time, and most people probably don't get to play more than 1-3 games a week what with things like work, school, social lives. It can be very disappointing to play someone with a bad list, and to know before the models are even set up that you are going to most likely win, and to then go through the motions over the next few hours making that a reality. The social aspect of the game can of course be fun, though putting such a beating on someone can also put a damper on that as well, depending on how they handle that sort of thing.

2. Be a polite and gracious player. For me the first thing to realize in any 40k interaction is that both you and the other player like 40k, and are likely quite passionate about it. It takes a lot of money and time to prepare an army and learn all the rules, as well as carve time out of life to actually play the game. As a fairly niche hobby, you should want to be friendly with other players, and want them to have fun and enjoy the game. So, on the most basic level, be polite. If you think they have a rule wrong, mention it in a way that isn't attacking them. I often tell people I want to look up a rule I think they have wrong because i am not familiar with it, rather than I think they are wrong about it. If they have a question about a rule you know you are right about, don't hesitate to look it up and show it them. I usually just say "yeah lets make sure I have it right." Going deeper, unless it is a tournament game with money or prizes on the line, I will typically allow the other player to go back and do psychic phases they forgot, heal a guy with the apothecary, pop smoke, etc, or anything else they forgot to do, but the order of which doesn't really have an effect on the game. You certainly don't have to do this, but I like it when people do it for me, so i do it for them. I will also go as far as to remind them of forgotten psychic phases etc. This is what I think of as being a gracious player.

3. Learn to like losing. The way most people learn is through course correction, and trial and error. Probably 90% of the time you lose a game, it is because you made mistakes. Usually more than one, i would guess. The other 10 might be down to bad dice rolls (I am sure we have all had those times you roll ten 1s on ten dice and your 300 point unit goes splat!) but those have are rare. Every time you lose look at it as an opportunity to either build a better list, play smarter, stay calmer as the game situation intensifies, or have a better understanding of the rules that caused you to mess up. By seeing these mistakes and remembering them the next time you play, you get better. And getting better at anything (video games, pool, painting, 40k, etc) is a lot of fun. But it requires an acceptance that there is room to grow and places where you can get better. I also like to talk to my opponent after I lose, and find out what they think i could do better, or if any part of my army seemed weak or out of place. A lot of the time they will see something that you did not that they were able to take advantage of, and you can fix it for the next time. Blaming the game, your opponent, or GW is fine if that is what you want to do, but it gets you nowhere. You made your list, you deployed, you moved, you shot, you charged, and you lost. Learn from these things and get better!

jcd386 wrote:
Some things I think every player should do every time they play a matched play pick up style game....

1. Bring the best list you can.

2. Be a polite and gracious player.

3. Learn to like losing.

Agree 100%, but I would add.

1. Though there is the chance to instead bring the best game you can. There is no "win" in bringing the best list your army can put together against the player who is spamming war gear on every odd unit he's begged, borrowed or been gifted from well meaning aunts and uncles just to scrape together 2K in points. A turn two tabling you will quickly forget, but it might just be the reason your opponent drops the game all together. How do you win if one game costs you a constant opponent for your entire gaming career?

2. This goes for before and after the game as well. I recently had the opportunity to sneak in a game while out of town in the local Warhammer store. After arriving I was happy to have gotten a table and an opponent within five minutes. My opponent asked if I was looking for a casual, semi-competitive, or competitive game. I replied that I had about five hundred points of "lets see what this does" and 1,500 points of "as competitive as my Sisters can get" but over all, competitive was fine. My new opponent replied that they would "put together a list to play down to my level". Down to my level, Huh?

3. Learn to look at losing as a learning experience as well. There are lots of lessons to be learned in trying to salvage what you can from a game. I never look at a game as a total loss. If the lesson is just another case of what not to do when you stumble into a Maelstrom mission, at least you can hopefully cross one more "lets see what this does" off your list.

1.) If it's a pickup game, I'd be ok with someone bringing their A-game. But if you know who you'll be playing, maybe omit stuff from your list that you know the other player might find unfun.

2.) This goes without saying.

3.) This last one seems almost toxic to most people here, and a lot of people flock to either the "Competitive" or "It's the objective of the game to win" excuses. Sometimes, if the other guy looks bummed or uncomfortable for some reason, just let him win (by making a mistake and "forgetting" to do something). It takes greater courage to see something through than to curse at your opponent over a game of toy soldiers.

Looking past all the pretty and gracious words you provided us in your bid for judgement I noted some details you have confessed to that stands out.

You knew he was new to 8th edition and even by how many games, in this case it was his second game.
You admit his first game and defeat was against you.
You let us know that you beat his genestealers with your DA in that first game without the need to use Azrael.
You also pointed out that you were expecting to play against his genestealers again assuming it was his army and if he was financially challenged as you hinted I would also assume he'd return with the one army.
You still decided to dial it to 11 by bringing Azrael against someone who lost to your DA without him.

I believe this kind of action has been called 'baby seal clubbing'. Not sure what it's called today, hopefully not 'a gentlemen''s handshake.

I can't help but question when you truly learned from the store owner that he's got a habit of being salty when defeated. If it was after the first game then I get the sense that you intended to make an example of him on your second game. If it really was after the second game then I feel you dialed your list up to 11 to thrash the newbie when you already knew you didn't need to in order to defeat him.

Whipping out the sugar coated words afterwards would feel pretty darn patronizing.

I went ahead and kept Azrael in my list because I thought that Thousand Sons were tough as nails to beat, even without Magnus. I was worried about all those psykers and how Rubrics get good armor saves against small arms, so I brought a little force multiplier of my own. It turns out that it was way more than I needed. I'm sorry if I sounded unrepentant in my posts, but the whole point to me starting this thread was to discuss whether or not I was TFG for playing the list I did. I'm starting to think that maybe I was. Maybe, subconsciously, I was actually still sore about how badly I had lost another game against a different opponent recently and I wanted to ensure a win. Maybe I was already thinking ahead to a tournament I'll be playing in on Saturday, although my planned tournament list is much, much nastier than the one we're discussing in this thread. That was indeed the motivation behind including the flyer (which I thought would probably get Smited out of the air in this matchup). All in all, as far as list building judgment goes I screwed up and I admit that. Going forward I won't let it happen again, although I certainly am not going to just roll over and throw a game. I know I'd be really offended if I found out that someone took a dive in a game against me for any reason at all.

I'm certainly glad to have had the benefit of other people's opinions. I'll have to remember to save my power lists for tournaments and bring a friendly fluffy list to casual games, at least with this particular opponent until he gets 8th figured out. I'm too used to playing against more experienced players with cutthroat lists.

I do somewhat resent the implication that I played the list that I did just to "club a baby seal" or anything like that. I didn't list tailor one bit (against GSC, Thousand Sons, or any other list), I just didn't want to play my same list that I played the first time, so I switched it up. I really didn't think about how much more powerful I made it at the time, although as I said above I should have. I screwed up; there was no malicious intent. And I knew he had other armies; besides Thousand Sons and Genestealer Cults he also has Harlequins and Khorne Marines and Daemons (formerly Daemonkin). I just expected him to play his Genestealer Cult again because I thought he wanted to learn that army first in 8th and work on the others later.

And it really was after that second game, as I said in the OP, that the store guy (who was not the owner BTW) told me about my opponent's reputation. TBH it wasn't really even news to me; I'd seen the guy get kind of pissy in a tournament in 7th after getting thoroughly trounced by Tau. The game against the Genestealer Cult was at a different store in fact. I wouldn't "make an example" out of anyone, as I don't think humiliating others for personal amusement is in any way acceptable. I brought a list that I thought was okay, and it turned out my opponent wasn't ready for it yet. Bad call on my part. End of story, lesson learned, I'll bring something softer next time. I don't enjoy one-sided games from either end.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I went ahead and kept Azrael in my list because I thought that Thousand Sons were tough as nails to beat, even without Magnus. I was worried about all those psykers and how Rubrics get good armor saves against small arms, so I brought a little force multiplier of my own. It turns out that it was way more than I needed. I'm sorry if I sounded unrepentant in my posts, but the whole point to me starting this thread was to discuss whether or not I was TFG for playing the list I did. I'm starting to think that maybe I was. Maybe, subconsciously, I was actually still sore about how badly I had lost another game against a different opponent recently and I wanted to ensure a win. Maybe I was already thinking ahead to a tournament I'll be playing in on Saturday, although my planned tournament list is much, much nastier than the one we're discussing in this thread. That was indeed the motivation behind including the flyer (which I thought would probably get Smited out of the air in this matchup). All in all, as far as list building judgment goes I screwed up and I admit that. Going forward I won't let it happen again, although I certainly am not going to just roll over and throw a game. I know I'd be really offended if I found out that someone took a dive in a game against me for any reason at all.

I'm certainly glad to have had the benefit of other people's opinions. I'll have to remember to save my power lists for tournaments and bring a friendly fluffy list to casual games, at least with this particular opponent until he gets 8th figured out. I'm too used to playing against more experienced players with cutthroat lists.

I do somewhat resent the implication that I played the list that I did just to "club a baby seal" or anything like that. I didn't list tailor one bit (against GSC, Thousand Sons, or any other list), I just didn't want to play my same list that I played the first time, so I switched it up. I really didn't think about how much more powerful I made it at the time, although as I said above I should have. I screwed up; there was no malicious intent. And I knew he had other armies; besides Thousand Sons and Genestealer Cults he also has Harlequins and Khorne Marines and Daemons (formerly Daemonkin). I just expected him to play his Genestealer Cult again because I thought he wanted to learn that army first in 8th and work on the others later.

And it really was after that second game, as I said in the OP, that the store guy (who was not the owner BTW) told me about my opponent's reputation. TBH it wasn't really even news to me; I'd seen the guy get kind of pissy in a tournament in 7th after getting thoroughly trounced by Tau. The game against the Genestealer Cult was at a different store in fact. I wouldn't "make an example" out of anyone, as I don't think humiliating others for personal amusement is in any way acceptable. I brought a list that I thought was okay, and it turned out my opponent wasn't ready for it yet. Bad call on my part. End of story, lesson learned, I'll bring something softer next time. I don't enjoy one-sided games from either end.

Don't feel bad, he really should have kept going. I have played 4 games recently with my Marines and am still relearning them. I have lost 3 of the 4. But the ones I have lost have taught me more than when I won, and when I won my standard opponent felt they learned more about their list (at least that's what they told me in our post game discussions). I would have kept going if for no other reason but to see if I could kill Azreal myself even if I couldn't win. But that's me, if I am going to lose let's see how much I can take with me is my motto.

Sometimes you just show up with the wrong list. Sometimes you don't know what everything can do and being told how it works vs actually having it done to you are 2 different things especially if your not even aware of said charecters being an option when making a list to play with.

You're definitely not TFG, you said yourself you didn't list tailor you just took what you enjoyed.

I'm going to go against the flow here. You say you knew it was his second 8e game. You brought 3 named characters. Maybe not TFG, but definitely leaning in that direction.

One possibility might be to offer to switch armies for the next game.

I think the fact your asking does lean towards not TFG. My second game of 8th I played against, who turned out to be, kind of the store TFG running Custodes in 3 land raiders. I just moved so it was also my first game in the store. I didn't rage quit though and played through to the end with my list that I had no idea how to play and kept forgetting stuff which he'd just say "oh well, remember next turn to." Now that I've had a few games under my belt I think i'm going to challenge him again haha.

One thing I do when I go to play pickup games is take 2 list prepared. One is a strong competitive list and the other is very casual.I try to have a discussion before hand or maybe even look at the list he brought then choose one of mine accordingly. I did this exact thing Sunday against a guy I've never played. I asked him if his list was casual, he said yes, and told me his list. I played my casual list and we both had a great game. Real nail bitter. I won in the end but it was luck honestly.

I have been in your shoes though and that's the reason I started doing this. I'd show up with what I considered a strong list because I didn't know who/what i'd be playing and end up playing someone who was new with a weak list. I always felt bad and never enjoyed the games because they were to one sided. I tried to mitigate it by telling them when something they were doing was a good/bad idea and helping but that only goes so far.

He ran a 2k list with out magnus, that was his problem.

Dude your list was fine, I wouldn't worry about it.

As a TS player he seemed to over spent on sup par picks

HQ:
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch
Over priced post FAQ more so on disk if not useing deamon combos a prince is a better pick or run Ahraman for 3 more points

Troops:
10 Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannon and 2 Warpflamers
I find 5 man better picks as you get more smite and warp flamer is over priced big time as you are so slow you only get one shot most games
And if used as 5 man units you can put 2 per rhino

Elites:
10 Scarab Occult Terminators with 2 Hellfyre Racks and 2 Soulreaper Cannons
These are good better if used as 2 units

Heavy Support:
Chaos Vindicator with Havoc Launcher
These seem to never get there points back they were better in 7th

He also needs the big man

 ZergSmasher wrote:

I'm certainly glad to have had the benefit of other people's opinions. I'll have to remember to save my power lists for tournaments and bring a friendly fluffy list to casual games, at least with this particular opponent until he gets 8th figured out.
...

I do somewhat resent the implication that I played the list that I did just to "club a baby seal" or anything like that. I didn't list tailor one bit (against GSC, Thousand Sons, or any other list), I just didn't want to play my same list that I played the first time, so I switched it up. I really didn't think about how much more powerful I made it at the time, although as I said above I should have. I screwed up; there was no malicious intent.
....
. I wouldn't "make an example" out of anyone, as I don't think humiliating others for personal amusement is in any way acceptable. I brought a list that I thought was okay, and it turned out my opponent wasn't ready for it yet. Bad call on my part. End of story, lesson learned, I'll bring something softer next time. I don't enjoy one-sided games from either end.

Yeah man look. If you like the dude off table and don't mind spending time with him then next game just bring a list that he might bring, I.e. no named chars, no supercharged anything really. Bring your best painted dudes or some units you like just cuz they are cool. T sons are first of all cool. Play a narrative game or just follow his lead. If you don't really care for the guy or if he annoys you on table then just tell him straight up and spend your time somewhere else. All in all it seems he just doesn't go in for how maybe most others in the local group are taking the game, I.e. deck building competetive force multiplying buffness. I am sure that you can appreciate this perspective. Deep down you seem like a reasonable guy just doing your own level best to deal. The question before you now is do you wanna make room for his POV in your personal headspace. If so then maintain the collaboration. If not then my advice would be to amiably avoid gaming directly with dude. Paint. Hobby. Booze. Whatever. Keep it relaxed and who knows. Both of you may benefit on and off table.

I honestly think some of the aura abilities border on the ridiculous. Girlyman giving everything rerolling everything is pretty crazy. Same for draigo, belial, and abbadon - even just rerolling all hits is still pretty amazingly good. And the 4+ invlun bubble is also a little crazy too.

I think it would be a bit more reasonable if they could grant said abilities to a unit of their choosing each turn, instead of everything in a radius.

It's odd - I heard a quoted reason for not being able to attach characters to squads was to limit the existence of 'death stars'. If that was indeed GW's objective, I don't think they succeeded.

Why don't you 2 try switching armies for a game

Play with his army, and let him play with yours

Be on the receiving end of what he was complaining about and see how you feel. Walk a mile in his shoes.

 ProwlerPC wrote:


You knew he was new to 8th edition and even by how many games, in this case it was his second game.
You admit his first game and defeat was against you.
You let us know that you beat his genestealers with your DA in that first game without the need to use Azrael.
You also pointed out that you were expecting to play against his genestealers again assuming it was his army and if he was financially challenged as you hinted I would also assume he'd return with the one army.
You still decided to dial it to 11 by bringing Azrael against someone who lost to your DA without him.

I believe this kind of action has been called 'baby seal clubbing'.

^This.

Plus:

ZergSmasher wrote:he doesn't have the money right now. I won't go into it out of respect for his privacy, but he's probably right about that

Seriously? Way to make sure he does not respond here out of fear of embarrassment. And you call him salty? Pot to kettle.

I had more to say, like to point out how attitudes like yours push players away from stores, but after rereading your comments this matter is not worth anymore consideration. If you have to ask a bunch of keyboard warriors whether or not you are TFG you already know the answer.

I actually had a similar encounter a few days ago, except that my opponent ragequit in the first half of turn one because he wasn't familiar with Space Marine strategems and didn't expect my Predators to be able to kill his Tervigons. I killed two of them (in a 3000 point game,) using two of my three Predators, (I had a Predator, a Spartan, a Mortis dreadnought, and a Contemptor-Mortis left as far as gunline went,) and he decided to call the game and announced he wouldn't be playing against the Space Marine codex anymore.

You didn't do anything wrong. This edition is pretty brutal, and if you're not prepared to take some significant casualties on turn one against gunlines, or if you think that a short-range tanky army IS going to deal out a lot of damage, you're just going to be in for a bad time.

Seems like the problem was a lack of communication. I always ask my opponents beforehand if they prefer a competitive or casual game. I prefer playing tough lists, and the idea of completely "baby seal clubbing" a newer player sounds like a waste of my time and theirs. Next time, just have a discussion about the type of game you both want.

The angry and judgmental posters in this thread need to relax and stop making so many assumptions. People lose sight of the fact that this is a game we all play for fun, and if both parties can't have some level of enjoyment out of playing it, then someone is doing something wrong.

Well, I would say the OP's list seemed "reasonable" to me.
Rubric marines are pretty darn expensive in points... he rolled the dice on that one.

I am no use on this kind of topic I guess because for me: if the rules say you can take it, then you do.
It is kinda hard to read an opponent's mind on what he thinks is "fair" (it is in the rules!!).

Anyway, maybe a talk on mutual expectations may be in order.
Performing a "rage quit" is rather silly unless the opponent is being belligerent.

Any force that has NuMarines can't be cheesy. They just aren't very good.

Seriously though, did he elaborate why this list was problem?

Edit: Also? Rubric Marines just die. I've never feared them because they just aren't cost effective.

People like to play the game in different ways. A lot of people aren't looking for a steamroller fight with a super-optimised army, they want to lay down a collection of figures that appeals to them.

The objective of the game is to win, but the point of playing is to have fun, so everyone should use common social sense about how to handle their opponents.

That's the point of DakkaDakka too, so let's all play nicely together.

As most others have said, you are not TFG. And from what I've read of your recap, and assuming everyone was polite, there was no foul play here. Just better list and bad luck (dice wise on his part)

Cause despite what everyone else is saying Rubrics are actually really powerful. And 30 of them supported by sorcerors getting those 4++ rerolls of 1 is nothing to sneeze at.

Sounds more like he is new to 8th and he should be asking people for smaller skirmish games to learn the changes before hopping into larger scale competitive matches.