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Hi all,

So I haven't played 40k since 3e, but coming from Infinity I'm finding the Line of Sight (LOS) rules quite vague, and was hoping you could help me clarify a few points. It would be especially helpful if you could provide references to an official rule somewhere, be it in a rulebook or an FAQ, since being the 40k noob to my gaming group the veterans won't pay my arguments much attention without official proof.

On to my questions:
1. Losing LOS
With 8e allowing the defender to remove units, it is conceivable that a unit could drop out of line of sight halfway through a ranged attack on it, effectively meaning that the rest of the attacks made should not find a target. Now I know that targets are chosen before any dice are rolled, but the point of confusion comes into this with the fact that a unit immediately starts benefiting from cover once all models out of cover are removed, even in the middle of wounds being applied during an attack, this implies that the state of the each model is checked every time a wound is applied. In the same way, shouldn't the state of the model as a valid target within range and LOS be checked as wounds are potentially applied to it? In Images 01-03, A Heavy Weapons Cultist (B) takes aim at an Ork Boy Mob (A). There is an intervening Chimera unit (C). The Chimera obscures line of sight of the second Ork, but the front one is visible, so it is a valid shot (this is assuming Vehicles units block LOS - regard the Chimera as terrain if this turns out not to be the case). The Cultist shoots and delivers 3 wounds. The first Ork Boy is killed and removed. The Ork Boy unit is now no longer visible, but there are two wounds left to allocate. In Image 03 the Chimera is a piece of terrain representing a destroyed tank instead. It obscures the exact same amount of the Ork unit as in Image01 & 02.
Image01

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2. Intervening Units
Do intervening units block line of sight? The rules are clear that members of the shooter's unit DO NOT block line of sight, but what about other units, whether friendly or not? Since the targeting rules do not mention different units, I would assume it defaults to a case of checking the shooting model's line of sight physically, but it seems that most players just ignore intervening units entirely. This does not seem correct to me - one should be able to screen valuable units with less valuable cannon-fodder (assuming of course they completely obscure LOS), and as far as I can tell the rules support that. In Images 04-08, a Heavy Weapons Cultist (B) takes aim at an Ork Boy Mob (A). There is an intervening unit of Assault Cultists (C). In image 04, 05 & 06 the Assault Cultists are in a loose formation, with individual models at maximum cohesion distance of 2 inches. The Heavy Weapons Cultist can pick his targets through his allied unit and shoot at the Ork Boys. However, even with this loose formation, the Assault Cultists obscure Line of Sight to the second Boy. In Image 07 and 08 the Assault Cultists are tightly bunched together, totally obscuring view of the Orks by the Heavy Weapons Cultist.
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I realise that Infinity is a highly realistic skirmish game, and I don't mind a game abstracting LOS and cover rules instead - many games dealing with squad-based modern urban combat do this quite successfully. Unfortunately 40k feels like it wants to do a bit of both. Cover has been abstracted, IMO quite successfully (though it wouldn't hurt to have different grades of cover) but LOS remains geometrical... except when it isn't. I feel like they need to choose one paradigm, either True LOS/Cover or Abstract LOS/Cover, and stick with that.

All attacks take place simultaneously. You check los before rolling the dice. Enemies that die in the front do not prevent the rest of the shots from hitting.

You can trace los from any part of your model to any part of their model. The intervening unit would need to entirely block the model to prevent shooting. unlikely with infantry.

I think it would help for you to re-read the shooting phase steps/flow chart thing, as you've written a beautifully detailed and wonderfully illustrated question to which the simple answers are:

1) No
2) Yes

When you select a unit to shoot, at that point (before rolling any dice) you determine LOS on a model-by-model basis.... so on your point 2, if a model can't see any other model in a unit then it can't shoot it.

Once you start rolling dice it doesn't matter any more - the player being shot at removes whichever models she likes - even if they are out of LOS of ANY of the shooting models.

It's a simplification which allows games to flow faster, units to retain their most valuable/punchy models, and enables shenanigans such as removing the closest models making charges more difficult... or removing models not in cover until the whole unit is in cover.

Thank you both for your replies. ^_^

 Lance845 wrote:
You can trace los from any part of your model to any part of their model. The intervening unit would need to entirely block the model to prevent shooting. unlikely with infantry.

Not impossible though? Say I have a squad of tankbustas that I want to get close enough to destroy an Imperial Guard emplacement. The most logical thing to do would be to load them in a truck with a big mek for his forcefield and then drive them down the range. Let's say that I've had some really bad luck and my vehicles have all been destroyed, I'm trying to figure out if I could still get the tankbustas where they need to be by carefully screening them with Nob bodyguards for example, or a mob of grots - the latter unlikely due to their small size, I know, but just thinking out loud. Characters aren't the only valuable units that it would be nice to be able to protect short of sticking them in or behind a vehicle.

Can your opponent see them? Then he can shoot them.

Though most people count vestigal parts such as wings or weapons and such as not part of the model. I dunno if the rules are there in 8th Ed.

LoS is drawn from any part of the model or any part of the model so screening tank busters with grots, for example, is simply impossible.

Much larger and blocker units are required for screening. Even a trukk will, in many cases, not screen a unit standing behind it.

Thanks so much guys. I feel like this is one area the rules could be clarified and specified to rule out any ambiguity/room for argument, but you have helped me understand the Rules as Written much better. I guess I'll have to sell a kidney to get myself a squiggoth bodyguard or two!

What you're running into is basically why our entire 40K group house-rules cover/terrain rules. They're the biggest issue we have with 8th.

^ Agreed.
Every game I've played in 8th so far has had at least house ruled a blanket cover rule to account for vehicles and intervening models:
"Entire unit is 50% obscured? It's in cover."

By the book, the LOS and cover rules are woefully underwritten.

The thing that makes blocking los with infantry so hard is legs. If you don't have some kind of cape or loin cloth or anything hanging down making the entire waist down into a single solid wall you are going to end up with all these between the leg gaps. If I can see their legs through your legs I can shoot them. Orks always walk around in that wide stance. Space marines are always in some kind of wide stance. Necrons and eldar have spindly legs often in a wide stance (but at least some of them have loin cloths/cloaks).

Not impossible, but unlikely for infantry to block los on anything.

I actually asked almost the same question over in the "You make the call" forum!

It's been hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that a unit of ten models hiding behind LOS blocking terrain cannot be shot at all, but if just one of them is visible to a firing unit, the entire unit is now visible and without even so much as a cover save, as the firing unit's bullets just sort of bend around the corner.

Then there's that weird problem where, if a unit is ruins and shooting out the windows, they're in cover. If that same unit is behind the ruin, and the opponent can see any of them through the windows by getting down to model height, that unit is not in cover.

The current edition is really good, and it sure plays faster with less confusion. But what I've heard universally is that the cover and terrain rules could really use some work. The BAO, for example, ruled that the first floor of all ruins count as LOS blocking, to avoid that problem. In my own house rules, I'd prefer something like "wounds cannot be allocated to enemy models unless at least one member of the firing unit has a valid LOS to them."

 geekgrrrl wrote:
I guess I'll have to sell a kidney to get myself a squiggoth bodyguard or two!

Unfortunately, that still doesn't work. If you can see part of a model through the squiggoth's legs then it's still a valid target.

Part of it can be fixed with terrain rules. Part kinda requires a wound pool of sorts. The second you do that, people who love flamers won't be too happy. Best compromise is to bring back the wound pool from 7th but toss the closest to furthest and let owning player choose, but only out of the viable models.

There's something universally better to me about the granularity of damage output to potential damage a unit could receive going hand in hand. You can only kill half my models, but only half can shoot. That's infinitely better than how it currently works in 8th.