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I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

Erm, cultists are 5 points per model. 4 points once the codex comes out.

But yes, hordes are very good right now. The really successful ones have been conscripts and brimstone horrors, though the latter is getting a bit of a nerf.

Grots are not something you should be worried about.

Tyranids and daemons can play hordes too, tzeentzch armies full of brimstones are quite effective.

Pure hordes aren't invincible though, even AM is the current top tier thanks to deep striking cheap plasmas and tanks spam.

People are afraid of hordes because in 7th edition this kind of style was screwed and no competitive armies could play that way. Now they're viable and for many players they're something new, as they never faced list with that many bodies before or maybe they did, but seveal years ago.

Changings always scare people, but hordes are not OP at all, just modifiy your TAC lists a little bit in order to consider them as a possible opponent. Hordes wouldn't dominate the meta either since less than half the armies can play with tons of cheap models and many of them can be effective even with a more "toyz before boyz" style. I don't play the green tide with my orks for example, gretchin are gone for me, and I don't like moving tons of footslogging boyz.

Nah man 8th is all about MSU it's why tac marines are so much better then Chad marines, more viable and cheaper and pretty much the save survivability.

Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Honestly, hordes aren't good, they're necessary. The "meta" is overwhelming shooting on turn 1, hordes are the only chance you have of taking that hit, and then wiping out their army on your first turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

 Tactica wrote:
I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

What are you talking about with gretchin? they cannot take flamers or any upgrades on them. Gretchin are T2 with a 6+ save, LD4 and laspistols. A single squad of 10 bolter marines rapid firing can expect to kill 11 of them each turn. I mean I suppose someone could field a ton of them with a few pain boyz, and big meks, and runt herds (if you took 3 big meks, 4 pain boyz, 4 Runt herds, you could then field 471 Grechin, who would only take D3 wounds from morale, and have a 5++, 6+FNP. But you would have no long range shooting, and get wounded on 2s by everything. You would lose pretty quickly against a lot of assault armies who would assault a single squad and pile into several others.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

Yes, I don't own any of that. I know there's a grav flux bombard or something like that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

Yes, I don't own any of that. I know there's a grav flux bombard or something like that.

Hell even quad heavy bolters will rip them a new booty hole. Iirc it's like 12 heavy bolters shots for 70 points. Take 2 or 3 of those and something to reroll hits and shread any low T hordes

Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

IG wins again.

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Probably not, because the conscripts prevent you from being in range. You're shooting your meltas at conscripts. Yay.

Martel732 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Probably not, because the conscripts prevent you from being in range. You're shooting your meltas at conscripts. Yay.

Uhh, I don't know about you, but I take Lascannons instead of meltas. Pricier, but 4-5 Centurions with Guilliman can just about drop a Knight or a flyer in one turn with that firepower. With 48" range the Conscripts aren't keeping me out of range of anything.

We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

Okay. But their anti-horde is pretty crappy.

1) Hordes are a thing right now, but they are not the dominant meta anymore than, say, flyers, plasma scions or Reroll Gurliman.

2) Conscripts are really strong right now, and a core part of many, if not most, top lists right now. Brimstone horrors are so strong that they are borderline broken. Expect incoming nerfs.

3) Ork gretchin are pretty useless. If they were only 2 points a model... they would still be pretty useless.

4) Orks can run a fine horde army using Boyz, and nids can do the same with gaunts. But neither unit is broken, and both styles has some definite weaknesses.

5) You really cannot make a horde army out of Tau drones. Tau commander spam is really strong, but it is not a horde army even if you bring lots of drones.

6) I have never seen a Necron horde army.

Gaunts as well.

Are you talking about marines or specific chapters like BA? Cuz guilliman near devastators/predators and/or 3-4 razorbacks with twin assault cannons can cause A LOT of damage, even against conscripts. With not many drops marins should go first which is always great.

Add a single stormraven and those conscripts can be decimated in turn 1.

Of course if the opponent brings 450 little men it would be a different story but against 150-200 cheap bodies, which is what tipycally AM players field, marines can win a game. AM is the most powerful army, it is reasonable to accept that they win more games than other factions on average, but even in previous editions some armies were (way) more powerful than the other ones. Marines are not as effective as AM but they still may be competitive and win against them.

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

That's not good anti-horde at all...

Frag missiles. Whoop de-do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

That's not good anti-horde at all...

You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

Most hordes cannot even touch you. Most of the ones that can won't have the strength to break you except over multiple turns. You keep firing and it adds up. In Rapid Fire it's 38-40 dead Conscripts a turn.

Heck, I saw 5 of them kill 15-17 Genestealer Purestrains (who have 5++) in Overwatch. That's a little above their average but they can definitely build the body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. But their anti-horde is pretty crappy.

They've got Hurricane Bolters and the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. It's actually pretty substantial.

Audustum wrote:
You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

That's roughly 16 dead conscripts at 24'' and 32 dead conscripts at 12''. Representing roughly 64 or 128 pts. It's an inefficient but comparatively not terrible method by SM standards, if you can get into rapid fire range.

sossen wrote:

Audustum wrote:
You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

That's roughly 16 dead conscripts at 24'' and 32 dead conscripts at 12''. Representing roughly 64 or 128 pts. It's an inefficient but comparatively not terrible method by SM standards, if you can get into rapid fire range.

We discussed the matter earlier. It's actually 20 dead at range and 40 in Rapid Fire.

When calculating point efficiency, don't forget to only use half the model's base and discount the cost of the second gun since those are being used on a different target. Unless we want to start adding in potential enemy vehicles and hard targets for the second gun to shoot at.

So under that metric, you're using about 220 points of the Cents and Guilliman's 360 to shoot the Conscripts.

Do Cents get -1 AP from somewhere? Otherwise, I am getting about 16 dead from maths. 30*.888888*.8888888*.666666. It is a big punch to the Conscripts, but you need much more if you expect there to be more than 50 or so. That is a tiny part of the AM lists points, so hopefully your other weapons manage to knock out some of the meaningful return fire. Otherwise, those Cents can't hope to keep it up.